CMHomeboy78

What sacred place?

The Finlayson Map of Chiang Mai illustrates this very well.

Google no help finding a copy of this map. Do you have a link ??

Thanks.

A very high quality reproduction of the Finlayson Map of Chiang Mai is included, along with several other period maps, in the book The Gold and Silver Road to Trade and Friendship: The McLeod and Richardson Diplomatic Missions to the Tai States in 1837 [silkworm Books 2003].

The oldest families in town mostly trace back to the late 18th century when Chiang Mai was resettled by Prince Kawila after kicking out the Burmese.

I remember it well.

You're quite right, Chiang Mai was resettled after being deserted for a time during the 18th century.

In point of fact, it was between 1775 and 1797, as recorded in the Chiang Mai Chronicle [Wyatt/Wichienkeo trans. Silkworm Books, 1995].

But you are mistaken if you think that the aristocratic families, the Chaos of Chiang Mai don't predate the rebirth of the city at the turn of the 18th century.

There is a long history of Chiang Mai dynastys beginning with the one founded by King Mengrai in 1296 and ending with the Trakun Chao Jet Ton.

The ruling families of Lampang, Chiang Mai, Lamphun, and Prae, as well as some collateral branches all originate from the Lampang rebel/freedom fighter Thip Chang, who in 1732 initiated armed resistance against the Burmese that ultimately drove them out of Lanna Thai.

He became the first king and founder of the last dynasty that came to be known as the Trakun Chao Jet Ton - the dynasty of the seven lords - who ruled all of Lanna Thai as well as parts of what is now the Burmese Shan States and Laos.

That - generally speaking - benevolent rule continued until the late 19th century when Lanna Thai lost its sovereignty to the central government in Bangkok.

Your intelligent and often witty comments on contemporary life in Chiang Mai are always worth reading.

I'm sure we can agree that the traditional life and culture of the Kohn Muang - whose guests we are - is of equal importance.

Nimmanhaemin, the new Soho. Nothing wrong with a cultural touch to the city.

Why not start taking an interest in the traditional culture of the original inhabitants who have been here for the past 700 years?

What sacred place?

Don't be silly. It's the same sacred places where hordes of Thais wearing bikinis and wet clothes go every year, usually in a drunken state, to throw water on each other and jump into the moat during Songkran.

It's also the same sacred place where many Thai males hang out drinking at, often taking a wizz there.

Your observation that many Thais show little or no respect for historical sites is quite true. The same could probably be said for a minority of people in almost every other country in the world.

What is the point or inference of your post? That the disrespect shown by some make it acceptable for everybody else?

The wholesale destruction of Chiang Mai's cultural heritage by commercial interests and the government itself in the name of 'progress' and 'development' began with greed and this kind of ignorance.

If you were here in the 1970s you will remember the area around Wat Jet Yot and how beautiful it was until they widened the superhighway and allowed unrestricted building to transform it out of recognition. Many other examples could be given.

What hasn't been lost already should be cared for - as far as possible - by all of us, Thai and farang.

Thanks for the coordinates Khwaibah, that helps immensely. I've been to Ban Tawai several times actually. They seem very tight lipped there as far as providing info as to where I could get wood. Guess they think I'm gonna take business away from them or something.

No luck in Ban Tawai?

I've often found the odd piece of wood that I've needed for carving or furniture making, and always found the craftsmen there easy to deal with.

You didn't tell them your TV user name, did you?

Another possibility might be the woodcarving shops in Bo Sang, as well as the used lumber dealers in the small towns around Chiang Mai.

The regular lumberyards are worth checking out for sure, but their stock-in-trade is straight grained wood for building purposes.

You are more likely to find what you want among woodcarvers and furniture makers.

Sawmilling in Chiang Mai is a dying industry due to a lack of plentiful supplies of wood like there was in the past.

The latest bad news is that there are now restrictions - or perhaps a total ban - on log exports from Burma. True or not, I don't know. But I do know that the price of milled lumber spiked dramatically a few months ago when I went to buy wood to build a Thai Sala on a piece of land that one of my daughters recently bought in Saraphi.

For burls and odd bits, try Ban Tawai near Hang Dong. Around back there are workshops where you could possibly get what you are looking for... at a price.

Chok Dee.

In reply to the topic of where to find an alternative to Pai, perhaps Ban Sop Guy on the Mae Taeng would answer. It is about two hours from Chiang Mai and is a small town with some restaurants and bungalows in a beautiful location. Many activities and a good place to take children. When my daughters were growing up we went often. Good swimming in some parts of the river with deep pools and boulders to dive off. Rafting, hiking to hilltribe villages, and the pleasure of being in a place where progress and development haven't arrived in full force... not yet anyway.

I tried a few variations on spelling of this with google and google maps.. Didnt get any hits..

Any GPS or more detailed location info ??

The Mae Taeng River from Ban Sop Guy up to Wiang Haeng is a beautiful area, and largely unspoiled.

Ban Sop Guy is easy to get to. Head north out of Chiang Mai on the road to Chiang Dao [107] past the turnoff to Pai/Mae Hong Son, then turn left on the dirt road that follows the Mae Taeng in a northwesterly direction. From the main road it's only about an hour.

Other places upriver are more difficult to reach, many of the hilltribe villages are only accessible by trails or very bad roads.

There is a paved road to Wiang Haeng, but that far up, the river is much smaller and the area is less scenic, although still quite nice.

What we used to do was use Ban Sop Guy as a base and trek out to other places from there.

Happy trails!

I think that you will have to go to a neighboring country to find a place like the old Pai...............

Bring back the beatnik era of the late 60's and the hippies of the 70's they blew soul into Pai.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pai,_Thailand

Excuse me for bluntly contradicting you, but there is no record anywhere - to my knowledge - of beatniks or hippies being involved in the history or development of Pai.

My own experience of Pai is slight, and only consists of a lunch stop on a solo motorcycle trip from Chiang Mai to Mae Hong Son in 1982. At that time it was a typical, and unremarkable, Thai/Shan village without a beatnik or hippie in sight. I was the only farang in town, eating my noodle soup w/ monkeyballs in a local shophouse - no restaurants then.

Backpackers later transformed Pai, not beatniks and hippies.

Thank you very much for the Wikipedia link to Thomas Kasper's excellent essay on the history of Pai. It was informative, concise, and well-written. I have saved it as a reference.

Kasper is the type of amateur historian that should be more numerous here. You would think that the recent dramatic increase in the number of resident farangs in and around Chiang Mai would produce a certain percentage who took an intelligent interest in the history and culture of Lanna Thai and the Kohn Muang.

Maybe they are out there, but laying low, and will emerge in the not too distant future.

In reply to the topic of where to find an alternative to Pai, perhaps Ban Sop Guy on the Mae Taeng would answer. It is about two hours from Chiang Mai and is a small town with some restaurants and bungalows in a beautiful location. Many activities and a good place to take children. When my daughters were growing up we went often. Good swimming in some parts of the river with deep pools and boulders to dive off. Rafting, hiking to hilltribe villages, and the pleasure of being in a place where progress and development haven't arrived in full force... not yet anyway.

Can anyone direct me to where I can find iron-on patches for clothing (i.e. sports jacket) in Chiang Mai? I have a few designs that I would like to print out and iron onto the sleeves of my sports jacket.

There are a number of small shops that make heat-transfer fabric stickers in Chiang Mai.

Your original artwork can be scanned and printed, then applied to the garment right at the shop.

The place I have used - but I forget the name - is on the lower level of Big C [formerly Auchan] at the Ton Jaan intersection of Hwy.11 going to Lampang.

I have also heard that there were a few places near the main entrance to CMU.

And I'm sure there are others around.

Hope you find one.

They are the type that have No Respect for anyone or anything.....including themselves!

What a foolish remark.....They're kids on holiday and the thought probably didn't even cross their minds. Is this all Thailand has to worry about?

There's nothing foolish about the remark at all.

First, they're not "kids".

Second, if that's the kind of holiday they wanted, they should have gone to Pattaya.

I don't know how familiar you are with Northern Thailand [Lanna Thai] in general, and Chiang Mai in particular. So I may be telling you things you already know.

Your primary interest seems to be artwork done on paper. The production of handmade paper from mulberry bark is a Chiang Mai tradition that goes back many hundreds of years. In all probability it was brought with the various Tai peoples who migrated southwards from China and began to establish small states in upper Burma, Laos, and Lanna Thai in the early 12th century.

Mulberry paper is called "gra-daht saa" in Thai, and it is produced in many places; notably the village of Bo Sahng, east of Chiang Mai.

It is one of a wide variety of crafts that is practiced by these instinctively artistic people.

Ban Tawai, south of the city, is another place where you can get a good idea of traditional Lanna Thai arts and craftwork.

Again... good luck - chok dee - and I hope all goes well on your trip.

Greetings, and welcome to the forum.

Chiang Mai at one time was a place that attracted many artists; several of them quite well-known. The Swiss painter Theo Meier and the German Gerd Barkowski were long-term residents. Paul Bowles, the American writer lived here for a time as well.

I came in 1978 as a young artist on my travels. It was the best place I had ever been to by a factor of ten. After a few years of living here, painting and pursuing my pleasures, I married a girl from an old Chiang Mai family and settled down - more or less.

The boom-years of the mid-'80s changed the city out of recognition and ended an era that is fondly remembered by those who were here at the time.

Chiang Mai still has many attractions, but the raffish types who used to make up the majority of foreigners are now replaced by a more conventional and law-abiding class of people, whose dollars and pounds and euros buy them a better lifestyle than they could afford in their home countries.

That said, you might very well find artists who are living and working here, doing work that would perhaps interest you.

Modernization has had much less impact on the countryside, and the Kohn Muang - Northern Thai people - still have the charm, lovely manners, and highly refined folk-arts that have always impressed visitors.

Rural areas would likely attract foreign artists more than the westernized cities; but living there would be difficult for a number of reasons. Language primarily, if they were newcomers.

Better to concentrate on Chiang Mai, and Chiang Rai also, if you have time to get up there.

HQ PaperMaker is a Chiang Mai source for handmade artpaper; mulberry, bamboo, etc. They also promote the work of local artists, Thai and foreign. You might be able to make some contacts through them at hqartgallery.com and hqpapermaker.com.

On a personal note, my own work is mostly - but not exclusively - Thai-related. Landscapes, the traditional life and Buddhist culture of Northern Thailand. Also mandalas and other things. Always oil on linen canvas mounted on plywood; but I don't think that is what you are looking for. Anyway...

Best of luck in Chiang Mai.

Doi Suthep is mentioned several times in the Chiang Mai Chronicle [Wyatt/Wichienkeeo trans. Silkworm Books 1995], but always in a religious or ceremonial context, and doesn't give much practical information.

Reginald le May, a British consular official posted to Chiang Mai early in the 20th century tells us that Doi Suthep was used as a hill-station by the foreign community during the hot weather. He goes on to say that "...many bungalows are dotted all over it, at heights ranging from 1200 feet right up to the top."

In the late 19th century the missionaries built a sanatorium on the east slope. The site chosen was not sufficiently high, as the malarial region rises to an elevation of 4000 feet, and the building was abandoned. Also mentioned by le May are extensive tea-gardens on the west slope.

Holt Hallett, the British civil-engineer who made several visits to Chiang Mai in connection with the railway surveys he was conducting in the 1880s, records an excursion he and his party made on elephants:

"The ascent of the hill as far as the waterfall, which lies about a mile and a half from the foot of the hill, was easy, and from thence onwards the slope became rather steep. The aqueduct takes its water from the Huay Kao just above where the stream plunges over a ledge forming the crest of the fall, and a shelter for many small images that have been placed under it by pious pilgrims. A small temple containing a solitary image of Gaudama has been erected near the head of the fall.

Continuing the ascent along the bank of the torrent, which rushed, glistening and foaming, down its channel of bare granite rock, at eleven o'clock we reached the rest-houses at the foot of the knoll on whose crest the Mya Sapeet chedi, or pagoda of the Emerald Rice-bowl [Wat Pra-Taht Doi Suthep] is erected. The journey from the east end of the bridge had taken us four and a half hours, the distance being a little over eight miles.

The enclosure on the summit of the knoll is square, and surrounded by a roofed shed which faces inwards, and has an entrance-gate in the centre of each side. The pagoda is about fifty feet high, covered with copper plates heavily gilded, and surrouned by a copper-sheathed iron railing. The pedestals at the four corners of the base of the pagoda are coated with a glass mosaic of various colours, and facing each side of the pagoda is a temple containing an image of Gaudama. The walls and posts of the temples are richly decorated with designs in gold and vermilion. The platform of the enclosure is 1993 feet above the plain, and 3001 feet above mean sea level. The summit of Loi Soo Tayp [Doi Suthep] appeared to be about 3000 feet higher than the crest of the knoll.

From the entrances facing the plain, on a clear day the view must be magnificent; but at the time of our visit the hills on the other side of the plain were shrouded in haze, and we could only see the country for two or three miles beyond the town. The whole area as far as we could see looked one great orchard of palm and fruit trees, with here and there a narrow strip of rice-plain."

Photographs from around the turn of the 19th century show the main naga stairway leading to the wat as very impressive, haunting, almost eerie looking. Albeit in a state of disrepair. One naga without a head, and the serpentine railing collapsed in some places.

When I first saw it in 1978, it had been completely reconstructed and transformed into something you might see at a carnival or some cheezy Tiger Balm Garden type of sculpture. So it goes.

Happy trails!

Theravada Buddhism isn't "superstitious".

You're confusing it with animism, which Buddhism supposedly replaced, but still has an influence here among many people.

Show me any religion without superstition and dogma

Do you find Theravada Buddhism superstitious?

Most people who study it or practice its tenets don't.

Superstition - like beauty - is often in the eyes of the beholder.

American women like this are one of the reasons I married a Thai.

The women in the poster only worked through WW2, then stayed home with the kids.

I'm sure there are any number or reasons you married a Thai, but the US lacking in women that make great wives is not one of them.

Rosie the Riveter had a cultural influence on American women like no one before or since.

The babe had balls.

I first came to Thailand in 1973. Back then, the people were infinitely more friendly,So, right off the top of my head, I would say that the attitude is very much worse. As far as what's better, maybe more places are air conditioned, taxis have meters and there are BTS and MRT now.

Sir

In 1973 most countries in the world were nicer,less crime,mummies looked after the kids, daddy was the bread winner, need i continue ???

Bit off on our dates are we?

American women like this are one of the reasons I married a Thai.

For foreigner info, most thai people know little to nothing about teachings of Buddha, but are certainly accustomed to the superstitious influence of Buddhism as a religion that has been damaged by society. Mostly it's about gathering money from people trained to be superstitious, and for a large part, it's about people who need a "break" from life's usual difficulties and spend time at a temple with no particular stressors. When they finish, they typically go right back to previous situation. This I know by direct observation of many acquaintances and conversations with the corresponding people. Sent from my iPhone using Thaivisa Connect Thailand

Theravada Buddhism isn't "superstitious".

You're confusing it with animism, which Buddhism supposedly replaced, but still has an influence here among many people.

It wouldn't be Thailand if we didn't have a good ol' coup every now and than, the Thais thrives

on it, they like the action, the commotion, the comradery, perhaps a bit of looting here and there,

some fires and lots of singing, dancing and clapping, and of course, no need to got to work for

few weeks, all in lots of fun....and after all that mayhem and a new government/regime, someone will

stand up and declare AMANSTY, to reset, to forgive and forget....I just love Thailand....

Spot on, Bro...

and yeah, I love Thailand too.

Avoid the peddlars and temporary shops and vendors at fairs. You might get something good, but are more likely to get junk.

Sukko - the shop referred to in several posts but not named - is the place to go. On the north side of Chang Moi, opposite and a little up toward the moat from the intersection with Chang Moi Kao.

The shop is a bit of old Chiang Mai that still survives, albeit in smaller premises. Same location but much reduced in size from what it was.

It is the only place in Chiang Mai - to the best of my knowledge - that sells good quality woodcarving tools; gouges, chisels, V-tools, etc. They aren't as good as the best western tools, Frank Mittermeier for example, but they are good enough.

They have many things for sale and are very nice people to deal with.

Hello, FolkGuitar.

What law is it that says the passport must be on your person?

The passport issue is a vexed question. It has never been clarified whether or not it is a law on the books.

Fifteen, or so, years ago there was a crusading zealot named Purachai - and he was a "pure-boy" indeed, to use an English-Thai amalgam. A high-ranking flatfoot whose obsession was "social-ills". As head of the CSI [or some agency, I can't remember which] he had a bully pulpit to preach his faith.

Farangs got most of his attention. In a two-page article in the leading English language newspaper he stated unequivocally that foreigners must carry their passports at all times, and that photocopies were not an acceptable substitute because they were too easy to alter.

In the wake of this pronouncement from on high, a number of foreign embassies issued warnings to their nationals that it was the law of the land.

But is it? Has anyone actually seen it? I don't think so.

Ambiguity would make it so much easier to apply the "law" and collect "fines" on a selective basis.

This gauleiter mentality never dies, it just changes uniforms from time to time.

^^ Thanks for that informative reply. Very interesting.

Anytime, amigos.

Local history has been an abiding interest of mine for a long time... nice to know others who share it.

Do you know anything about Chiang Saen. The walls look more original there. The gate fortifications are very impressive.

It looks like the walls were made completely of bricks instead of two outer walls with a center of rammed earth.

Cheers

R'tje

Chiang Saen was the last stronghold of the Burmese in Lanna Thai until they were decisively defeated and driven out in 1804. After that it was deserted for many years until the late 19th century when efforts were made by the Siamese government to repopulate it as a strategic counter to the French who were spreading their influence to the upper Mehkong.

The city of Chiang Saen and its extensive fortifications were visited and written about in the early 20th century by W.A.R. Wood and Reginald le May, both British consular officials posted to Chiang Mai.

Chapter XII of le May's 1926 book, An Asian Arcady [reprint White Lotus 1986] records in detail a three-day visit to Chiang Saen he made in 1913 as part of a tour of the consular district. He begins with some background information: "Chiang Saen is a mysterious old city, surrounded by a high, thick, strong wall with palisades on top of the brick, and deep trenches dug outside. How far the wall extends, and what area it embraces is difficult to say. The whole city is now so overgrown with plantations of teak, and thick secondary growth, that one cannot see more than twenty yards ahead, except on the main grassy track; but it must be of wide extent, for the District Officer told me that there are now tiger and other game living within the walls, and that he had recently fired several shots at a rinoceros.

This city has a special place all to itself in the history of Siam, for it was originally a Lawa stronghold, and must have been one of the first, if not the very first, city in Siam to fall into Tai hands during their migrations southward. Quite conceivably it may have been the settling-place of the Tai Prince Brahma when he crossed the Mehkong in the second half of the 9th century, However this may be, the first actual mention of Chiang Saen occurs about the middle of the 11th century, when it is recorded that the Lawa had set up an independent kingdom there under a king called Chakkaraja, who had many successors until the 13th century, when the Tai became too strong for the Lawa, and drove them into the hills. At that time the State of Chiang Saen was known as Ngon Yang, and remained still independent, though under Tai rule. The famous Phya Mengrai, who founded Chiang Mai, originally succeeded his father as Prince of Chiang Saen about 1260 AD, but left it to found his capital at Chiang Rai, which he named after himself. Chiang Mai itself was founded much later, in 1296. When his grandson, Sen Phu came to the throne in 1327, he left Chiang Mai and reoccupied Chiang Saen, which he made his capital once more; and his son, Kham <deleted>, followed his example. But Pha Yu, the son of Kham <deleted>, who succeeded to the throne in 1345, only stayed in Chiang Saen until 1350, when he removed definitely to Chiang Mai, and Chiang Saen was never the capital city again."

W.A.R. Wood, former British Consul-General at Chiang Mai also visited Chiang Saen on several occasions and wrote about it.

Both Wood and le May are well worth reading. They had a profound knowledge and love for Lanna Thai and its people.

I use a disk sander in my electric drill. Sanding disks are [or were] difficult to get in Chiang Mai, so I improvised and cut my own out of the high quality sandpaper sold by the metre in many places here. It's usually a reddish-brown colour.

You could do the same for a random orbital sander. Use an old disk as a pattern, mark and cut the back [paper] side. If it attaches with velcro, I'm sure you could get that locally. My sanding disk is held in place by an arbor screw and washer.

Choke Dee.

^^ Thanks for that informative reply. Very interesting.

Anytime, amigos.

Local history has been an abiding interest of mine for a long time... nice to know others who share it.

Historical sources tell us that Chao Kawila rebuilt the Kampang Muang, the corner forts, and the five gates, when he refounded Chiang Mai at the turn of the 18th century.

Professor Hans Penth [A Brief History of Lanna. Silkworm Books 1994] summarizes it as follows: "For military reasons, but also because the city had suffered much physical damage and a serious loss of population along with a loss of food supply, the royal court, between 1775 and 1797, lived in a camp near Pa Sang, south of Lamphun. During that time, Chiang Mai was nearly deserted. After King Kawila had ceremoniously re-entered the city on Thursday, 9 March 1797, Chiang Mai received new fortifications; what is left of them at present dates from that period around 1800."

Early 20th century photographs show the Kampang Muang in disrepair, but largely intact. By mid-century it had been all but leveled, and the corner forts devastated. The massive gates along with their fortified inner courtyards obliterated and replaced with stage-set structures nothing at all like the originals.

The later rebuilding of Tha Phae Gate was based on early photos, and seems to be right in terms of scale, but is without the inner courtyard that was an integral part of the original structure.

The fortifications of Chiang Mai - or what was left of them - now exist only as memories in the minds of a few very old Kohn Muang.