CMHomeboy78

Interesting bit about the Buddha images and the Sop-Li bronze foundry. I've never heard of it.

Have any excavations been carried out there?

I have never heard of any excavations being done at the site.

Thanks for your interest.

Shame that metal detectors are not easily available here. Hobby archeology could take off. Plus, easier to find my wedding ring next time it slips off in the garden. Been lucky to find it 2 times....

I've often had the same idea about using a metal detector here.

I have a friend in the US who has been doing it since the 1980s. We grew up north of New York City near the Hudson Highlands. The whole area played a key role during the Revolution.

My friend has accumulated what amounts to a valuable collection of artifacts including British shillings and even a Spanish bit.

Chiang Mai is virgin territory for metal detecting.

Keng Tung (north of Tachilek) is the junction in Myanmar en route to SW Yunnan (to the NE) and West in Myanmar to Napyidaw, Mandalay and Bagan further West as the roads still go. Not surprising that existing roads through the mountains were once important trade routes. Could be interesting to consider the future as well as look to the past.

It seems to have always been a relatively important place - at least from the 15th century onward; and possibly before that.

If you are familiar with W.Somerset Maugham's travel book written in the early 1920s, The Gentleman in the Parlour, you will remember that it was a visit to Keng Tung, on the recommendation of a friend, that persuaded him to make the journey.

From Rangoon upriver to Mandalay, then overland on ponies and pack-mules through Upper Burma to Keng Tung. Then on to Mae Sai and down to the railhead in Chiang Mai and beyond.

It must have been an unforgettable trip. It certainly inspired an excellent book - one that I reread every few years.

Interesting bit about the Buddha images and the Sop-Li bronze foundry. I've never heard of it.

Have any excavations been carried out there?

My main source of information about that is:

Sop-Li: A Fiftheenth Century Bronze Casting Workshop.

By Carol Stratton. Journal of the Siam Society. 2009 Vol. 97. PDF file.

Carol Stratton has been in Thailand since the early 1970s and began her career as a young volunteer guide at the National Museum in Bangkok. Since then she went on to become a distinguished writer and lecturer on Lanna T'ai art. Her best known book, Buddhist Sculpture of Northern Thailand [silkworm Books 2004] is a definitive study.

In a footnote to her JSS article she states: "Efforts to find out if the current inhabitants of Sop-Li village have retained any memory of this famed bronze-casting workshop were abortive. According to Ajarn Vithi Panich of Chiang Mai University, such exemplary craftsmen would have been taken off to Burma during its long occupation of Lanna T'ai, and other people would have been relocated to the area."

That's just conjecture of course; but it seems plausible to me.

I have never heard of any excavations being done at the site.

Thanks for your interest.

It's so nice to have you home again. New Seekers.

Blue Bayou. Linda Ronstadt.

Not Chiang Mai related, but related to my feelings when I'm in Farangland, away from home and separated from my family.

As usual very informative. Thank you

I was wondering if

Chiang Mai has a literary heritage written on hundreds, if not thousands, of palm-leaf manuscripts from the 15th century when major historical and Buddhist texts were written.

Is preserved on modern tech. equipment. That is what is written on it.

Probably the best source of information about palm-leaf manuscripts is the Social Research Institute at Chiang Mai University.

It is the creation of the late Professor Hans Penth, who had been at CMU since its founding in the early 1960s. He worked with a team of academics - Thai and farang - to study and microfilm manuscripts that were scattered throughout Northern Thailand.

Some background information on the various Lanna T'ai scripts can be had in the excellent book: History of Lan Na, by Sarassawadee Ongsakul. Silkworm 2005.

Choke dee.

Thanks for the information.

Being a bit of a cynic, when I saw the thread title, my thought was 'a few years before I arrived'.

If the easy availability of girls and grass are considered, then yes, a more recent period could be called golden.

Almost erased from the history books? So the OP has gone off and studied what is online in Thai about it?

http://th.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/สมรภูมิบ้นร่มเกล้า

The only countries that i know which celebrate, let alone mention, a defeat in war are australia and New Zealand.

It's not a defeat if they fight to the last man... like at the Alamo... it's a victory.

In 1987-8 my brother-in-law's brother-in-law was a young soldier in the RTA.

He took part in the counter-assault on Ban Rom Klao where his eyebrows were burned off by a flash-grenade, or some kind of incendiary device.

The OP is slightly mistaken in saying that the conflict was "...erased from the Thai history books" - it was never in them to begin with.

The short war was not only undeclared, it was unreported.

Is that in Japan?

No this is not Japan, this is Koh Pah Ngan (Koh Samui)

Thank you guys for trying to help, but I would like to know the corespondent Thai name to the Eghlish: Shed, Shack, Hut, etc

You might add "gazebo" to your list of English synonyms for sala.

'... illegal tour guides ... give inaccurate information about Thai culture.' As, all too often, does Thai history.

'Tourists are charged high prices, and this would earn Thai tourism a bad reputation.' Nah!

Your comment following the statement that illegal tour guides give inaccurate information - "As, all too often, does Thai history" needs some clarification.

Thai history has been recorded since the 6th century BC by the Chinese chronicles, and was continued by the Thais themselves in the small kingdoms and city-states they established in the 13th and 14th centuries. Unfortunately, much has been lost to war and neglect. Notably, in the sack of Ayudhya by the Burmese.

The arrival of farangs who started to take up residence here in the early 19th century marked the beginning of an era when the country's history began to be meticulously recorded in first-person accounts.

The problem isn't that factual narratives of Thai history don't exist, they do; and most of them have proven to be accurate. The problem is that so few people - Thai and farang - take an intelligent interest in them. The lessons to be learned from the art and culture of the past could, in many cases, be applied to modern life; complimenting technology with the civilizing influence of aesthetics and the refinement of manners that are so often conspicuous by their absence nowadays.

'... illegal tour guides ... give inaccurate information about Thai culture.' As, all too often, does Thai history.

'Tourists are charged high prices, and this would earn Thai tourism a bad reputation.' Nah!

Most legitimate Thai tour guides - and even museum guides - have a memorized spiel about the sites and the things they are showing.

The tourists usually don't have the background knowledge to ask intelligent questions. That's just as well, because the guides probably couldn't answer complex inquiries anyway,,, a classic example of the blind leading the blind.

It's home.

Excellent short answer.

You beat me to it.

No short answer... and you may not want the long one.

The Ping River used to be the highroad to Bangkok before the railway reached Chiang Mai.

You could still make the trip in a small boat, but you would have to portage around the Bhumibol Dam... and the reservoir behind the dam has covered the most spectacular part of the Ping River's rapids and gorges.

Nevertheless, it would be a great trip to make, and you don't hear of many people doing it anymore.

you are lucky.

Here the food is cheap but crap.....

I'm lucky too.

In my Chiang Mai neighbourhood the food is not only inexpensive, but quite good as well.

The local women haven't poisoned anyone lately to my knowledge.

Selling food out of your own house would be impossible in the country I used to call home.

Get outta Rectum while you still can... no telling what's gonna happen next.

What is the logic? He clearly states that the footballers have not been home & yet they are being monitored for ebola

If it becomes a pandemic, who's going to question his logic?

 

 

 

 

There is also Payap University whose student base is at best 30% Christian and whose International School is perhaps the most international program I have encountered.  Payap was co-founded by some old school missionaries, some of whom are still around Chiang Mai.  You won't find a more decent and gracious group of missionaries around. And that is high praise coming from an atheist like myself.

 

Thanks for mentioning Payap... an obvious example of a good Christian school that I had overlooked.

They have a microfilm archive containing letters, photographs, and documents relating to the North Thailand Christian Mission founded by McGilvary and his followers in the early 1870s.  Almost every historian who has written about Chiang Mai in the late 19th century has made reference to it because the missionaries were key players in the events that ultimately led to the Chiang Mai chaos losing their power, and Lanna T'ai losing its sovereignty to the central government in Bangkok.

I would very much like to have access to it myself, but since I have no connection to the school, or academic credentials, it may be difficult.  Nevertheless, I intend to give it a try in the near future.

Does Payap University still host concerts?  I remember years ago the Princeton Glee Club, on an Asian tour appearing there.  Wonderful evening of everything from Bach cantatas to 1950s Calypso... a cappella.

 

 

I think that the missionaries may have had an influence in local politics of that era, being able to count upon the blessings of the Bangkok palace, but I doubt that they were key players as every other Muang (semi-independent province) fell to the push from Bangkok for obeisance to the Chakri throne and the Rattanakosin Kingdom.  Even the rebellious folks out in Phrae and Song districts, where there was no missionary activity at the time, became vassal states of the mahanakorn of Krungthep. 

 

I imagine that the Payap web page would have notice of any concerts.
 

 

Judging from your previous posts you seem to be well-informed about Thai history.

The issue of how deeply involved the American Protestant Missionaries and the British teak wallahs were in the loss of Lanna T'ai sovereignty is a vexed question.

From Chao Kawilarot's contentious relations with McGilvary and the North Thailand Christian Mission to the appointment of a resident Siamese commissioner in 1874, the missionaries were always there, pushing their agenda.  The question is, to what extent were they allowing themselves to be used as pawns by Bangkok to spread its influence and - with the aid of the British - exploit the rich teak forests of the north.

Incidentally, don't allow yourself to be distracted by minor conflicts in places like Phrae and Song.  Chiang Mai and Bangkok were where the decisive events took place.

The period is well-documented, so we can study it and draw our own conclusions.

 

 

 

 

Thank you for your information. I was unaware of the schools they had started. Are these schools that are still in operation still Christian? I know there are some around but not that familiar with them as I do not have any kids in school here. At one time considered trying to find one for a mentally challenged nephew of the wife but had no idea of where to even start the search at the time.

 

Dara Academy.

Sacred Heart.

Regina Coeli.

Monfort College.

The Prince Royal's College.

Chiang Mai Christian - near the old church across Nawarat Bridge.

There are others as well that I can't think of at the moment.

The Rev Daniel McGilvary and his wife started teaching and dispensing medicine as soon as they arrived in 1867.  His book, A Half Century Among the Siamese and Lao [reprint White Lotus 2002] tells the story in full.

 

 

There is also Payap University whose student base is at best 30% Christian and whose International School is perhaps the most international program I have encountered.  Payap was co-founded by some old school missionaries, some of whom are still around Chiang Mai.  You won't find a more decent and gracious group of missionaries around. And that is high praise coming from an atheist like myself.

 

Thanks for mentioning Payap... an obvious example of a good Christian school that I had overlooked.

They have a microfilm archive containing letters, photographs, and documents relating to the North Thailand Christian Mission founded by McGilvary and his followers in the early 1870s.  Almost every historian who has written about Chiang Mai in the late 19th century has made reference to it because the missionaries were key players in the events that ultimately led to the Chiang Mai chaos losing their power, and Lanna T'ai losing its sovereignty to the central government in Bangkok.

I would very much like to have access to it myself, but since I have no connection to the school, or academic credentials, it may be difficult.  Nevertheless, I intend to give it a try in the near future.

Does Payap University still host concerts?  I remember years ago the Princeton Glee Club, on an Asian tour appearing there.  Wonderful evening of everything from Bach cantatas to 1950s Calypso... a cappella.

 

 

 

Thank you for your information. I was unaware of the schools they had started. Are these schools that are still in operation still Christian? I know there are some around but not that familiar with them as I do not have any kids in school here. At one time considered trying to find one for a mentally challenged nephew of the wife but had no idea of where to even start the search at the time.

 

Dara Academy.

Sacred Heart.

Regina Coeli.

Monfort College.

The Prince Royal's College.

Chiang Mai Christian - near the old church across Nawarat Bridge.

There are others as well that I can't think of at the moment.

The Rev Daniel McGilvary and his wife started teaching and dispensing medicine as soon as they arrived in 1867.  His book, A Half Century Among the Siamese and Lao [reprint White Lotus 2002] tells the story in full.

 

I didn't fully answer your question in my previous post, so let me give it another try.

The schools I mentioned have all been in existence for some time and are nominally Christian, but they don't push their agenda.  The newer schools like Grace International might.  I really don't know because I have no personal experience with them.

My daughters went to Sacred Heart then Monfort and received religious instruction because I am a Catholic myself [although not a very good one] and I requested it.  If I hadn't requested it, they would have been allowed to follow their own religion without pressure to convert. Most of my daughter's school friends were  Buddhists and one was a Muslim. 

Live and let live.

 

 

northernjohn might have confused leukemia with leprosy, but the point he was making was valid, and relevant to the subject of his post.  If I understand him correctly it is the distinction between what the missionaries have done in the past and what they are doing now.

 

Chiang Mai has a number of schools and hospitals founded by missionaries in the late 19th and early 20th centuries that are still thriving - although for the most part now run by Thais.

The McKean Institute is a good example. Founded in 1908 by the missionary Dr.James McKean [1860-1949], it became world famous for its innovative treatment of leprosy and the establishment of a community near Chiang Mai where the lepers could live and develop skills to do craftwork.  Before that, many of them lived under the old Saphan Nawarat.

Many other examples could be given of what missionaries have done in the past.  I've read numerous first-person accounts with interest.

What many people would like to know is what they are doing now in addition to evangelizing.

 

 

Thank you for your information. I was unaware of the schools they had started. Are these schools that are still in operation still Christian? I know there are some around but not that familiar with them as I do not have any kids in school here. At one time considered trying to find one for a mentally challenged nephew of the wife but had no idea of where to even start the search at the time.

 

Dara Academy.

Sacred Heart.

Regina Coeli.

Monfort College.

The Prince Royal's College.

Chiang Mai Christian - near the old church across Nawarat Bridge.

There are others as well that I can't think of at the moment.

The Rev Daniel McGilvary and his wife started teaching and dispensing medicine as soon as they arrived in 1867.  His book, A Half Century Among the Siamese and Lao [reprint White Lotus 2002] tells the story in full.

@northernjohn

 

I didn't ask the Jehovah's Witness people how they support themselves. It's none of my business and I couldn't care less. There are a lot of them in Bangkok; both Thai and farang. I'm not interested in them at all. I can't answer your questions. You can contact the organization directly at their Bangkok headquarters.

 

McCormick Hospital has nothing to do with it. Anyone can be treated there and there are plenty of Buddhists (probably 60-70% of the patients) and everyone pays the same.

 

What on earth is a leukemia colony??? Do you really think leukemia is contagious?

northernjohn might have confused leukemia with leprosy, but the point he was making was valid, and relevant to the subject of his post.  If I understand him correctly it is the distinction between what the missionaries have done in the past and what they are doing now.

Chiang Mai has a number of schools and hospitals founded by missionaries in the late 19th and early 20th centuries that are still thriving - although for the most part now run by Thais.

The McKean Institute is a good example. Founded in 1908 by the missionary Dr.James McKean [1860-1949], it became world famous for its innovative treatment of leprosy and the establishment of a community near Chiang Mai where the lepers could live and develop skills to do craftwork.  Before that, many of them lived under the old Saphan Nawarat.

Many other examples could be given of what missionaries have done in the past.  I've read numerous first-person accounts with interest.

What many people would like to know is what they are doing now in addition to evangelizing.

 

I liked the part where you mentioned their most successful method of proselyltizing was what they called "Flirty Fishing" by the young female members of the sect.  This entailed the use of sexual attraction and intercourse to gain converts.

 

I would let them convert me at least once a week.

 

I crossed paths with the Children of God in Hong Kong 30 years ago, when I was in my 20s.

 

A friend and I met two attractive HK Chinese girls, on the street, from what I remember, invited them for a drink and dinner, then took them home to our respective flats. They did not mention religion and the Children of God were unknown at that time, at least in HK. We were all just kids in our 20s, it seemed like normal fun.

 

She assured me she was on the pill, and we had sex (this was pre-AIDS). But at the moment of truth, if you get my drift, she yelled out, "Thank you, Jesus!" I said, erm, what? She then told me about the Children of God, and to my horror, explained that it would be up to Jesus whether we had created a new life.

 

I humored her through a highly stressful month and thank the gods she did not get pregnant. But the scandal broke soon afterwards, and I learned how close I'd come to disaster. The aim was/is not only to "create" new cult members, but to pull the fathers in through a sense of guilt and responsibility as well.

 

Of course from that point on I returned to the straight and narrow and never had unprotected sex with strange women again (cough).

 

 

 

 

Thanks for relating that very interesting experience with the Children of God in HK - yes, I know they've changed their name and reorganized several times, but as the old Thai proverb has it:  "A snake that sheds its skin is still a snake."

Your story is exactly the type that I was hoping to elicit from members who had lived in Chiang Mai in the 1980s when the COG were active here.  My own experience of them is quite limited.  Around the time they appeared in Chiang Mai, my young wife had recently given birth to our first daughter and was expecting our second.  So I wasn't really interested in what they had on offer.  Although a few years earlier I probably would have been.

Thanks again for your response.

The strip is still intact, In fact i understand the Military still use it sometimes, Bill did develop the site sort of, but the Hmong General whoa name escapes me at the moment also had a big hand in it as he had a large contingent based there in the Mountains.

 

I flew Caribou, Porter, and Beech Baron in 1969./ 70 + ,   

 

I also understand there is a tour company in Vientiane who go there, but stuffed if I can find out who,  on the Google Map now but no closeups !

Hmong General... Vang Pao?