CMHomeboy78

The 19th century murals in the viharn of Wat Phumin are worth seeing. They were the subject of a very interesting study by the distinguished historian David Wyatt... Temple Murals as an Historical Source. The Case of Wat Phumin, Nan. [Chulalongkorn University Press 1993].

These fresco secco paintings depict the usual Jataka Tales seen in most wats, but here farangs are included. French army troops and gunboats; civilian men. women, and children; and a few oddly dressed figures who have been tentatively identified as clerics.

The various theories surrounding these paintings are studied and explained in detail by Professor Wyatt.

What's it to you?

You aren't a policeman, you don't have a work permit.

Too many old weirdos, watching other old weirdos, get a life, mind your own business.

No, sorry I don't want to drop my kids off somewhere and have them subjected to weirdos like that. Some of those people are child molesters. It's another thing to worry about when you have kids.

Spot on.

My two daughters are grown and can take care of themselves because their mother taught them from an early age that no older man who is not one of the family or one of their circle of friends would make an advance to them with anything other than evil intentions.

Not always true perhaps, but it was a part of their traditional upbringing that I never argued with.

Within Design

9 Charoenprathet Rd. Soi 9,

A. Muang, Chiang Mai

Tel. 053-272111

A good place for graphic design and commercial artwork of all kinds.

Excellent quality work, reasonable prices, courteous and efficient people to deal with.

Good luck getting tickets.

I don't know if "scalpers" exist here. It may be a Western practice that hasn't reached Chiang Mai yet.

Incidentally, welcome to the forum.

If you can't get tickets, the event can be viewed from two satellite venues: the College of Media Art & Technology [CAMT] at CMU, and the Meeting Room Art Cafe.

Contact them directly.

"Just wondering, now that Chiang Mai has once again made the list of top ten retirement countries in the world"

Please tell me what is the capital of Chiang Mai?

Never was good in geography.

I realize that CM is not a country but to better help with your needed geography lesson, CM city is the capital of CM providence, is it not?

Yes it is. Changwat Chiang Mai.

From an historical perspective Chiang Mai was the capital of Lanna T'ai until 1874 when sovereignty was lost to the central government in Bangkok.

A Siamese royal commissioner was appointed whose task it was to oversee local administration.

That was the end of Lanna T'ai's autonomy; but the beginning of its history as an important part of Siam, then modern Thailand.

Chiang Mai is a rat hole! I'm not trolling! The traffic has got to be the worst in the world, there are hardly any footpaths that you can walk on safely, you take your life in your hands trying to cross major roads inside the city, the Dr's are so second or third rate that flying home for health care is a reasonable option. Every Thai in the city sees all falang as an easy mark!

As you can tell I don't live there. After 3 years of making excuses, trying to understand, allowing for low IQ & low EQ, I'd finally had enough and left for friendlier climes.....Lamphun, Uttaradit, Phrae, Rong Kwan, Nan all of these towns are far far better to live in with all of the resourses nessessary for the good life! They even have pizza's!

Chiang Mai is a rat hole? ...well, if you say so.

Every rat smells his own hole.

What will Chiang Mai gain if it becomes a UNESCO World Heritage Site?

Have other cities benefited from it, or have there been problems? Those are the questions that should be asked.

Historically Chiang Mai has been two cities - within the walls, and without. Foreigners were settled outside the walls. Although there was free movement everywhere and never anything like ghettos here.

Lawas, Shan, Jeen Haw, and in the 19th century, Bangkok Chinese. American Protestant Missionaries, and British teak-wallahs had their communities on the east side of the Ping River.

After the arrival of the missionaries in 1867 they were soon followed by British employees of the teak companies. These two groups were the first resident farangs and they have left many first-person accounts that were subsequently used by a number of distinguished historians. Notably, W.A.R.Wood, Camille Notton, Hans Penth, David Wyatt, and more recently, Andrew Forbes.

The traditional division of the city could be applied to a comprehensive conservation plan where restoration efforts are focused on the old town within the moat - the walls have all but disappeared - and the outside areas allowed to develop freely with few restrictions on commercial activity as long as they don't cause harm.

The rebirth of Chiang Mai as a city that respects its past and encourages the highly refined folk arts of its people might be an example and have a civilizing effect on the crass commercialism seen everywhere now.

To address your concern: I don't think that a conservation plan "...may force CM to remain out of the times to preserve an older tradition which is no longer relevant."

As Faulkner said, "The past is never dead, It's not even past." Nothing confirms that more than the dynamic situation faced by Chiang Mai today.

Some very important decisions have to be made by the people who are in positions of responsibility. Let's hope they will act in everybody's interest - not just their own.

Well, if they - the powers that be - consider your words wisely, I will take my hat off. I have neither confidence in local businessmen or do-good NGOs. Only the people who live and breath Chaingmai can come up with the best plans and strong but firm responses to the commercial interests disguised as jobs for locals, that will keep this city alive for another 1000 years. Folk arts...yes, that sounds like an excellent starting point for Chaingmai. I well remember the arts & crafts of 15 years ago which have stood the test of time.

Agreed.

I don't have much confidence in organizations either... governmental or non-governmental.

So much of their money seems to be consumed by administrative costs before they even begin their projects. In the worst cases of corruption and greed they are just pigs feeding at the trough. There are exceptions however, so let's hope that if Chiang Mai achieves World Heritage Site status, UNESCO will be one of them.

Let me clarify what I meant by "folk arts". What I had in mind was the cottage industry production of goods for general use, and not just for the tourist trade. Although the promotion of locally made products for sale to visitors would be a good idea. I'm no fan of Mr.T and his rapacious clan, but his creation of OTOP was laudable, and it should be encouraged to continue.

Gandhi's adoption of Khadi in it's larger sense was a basic element in his revolutionary theories. Similar ideas might work here, even though conditions are quite different now. Education is the key to making any kind of change in attitudes.

What is needed now is a re-evaluation of consumer culture and finding ways to coexist with it without being overcome by it.

Old Chiang Mai is worth saving... I'm sure you agree.

They've got 48 F-16s, about an hour north of BKK (by car). That represents the majority of their airpower. The heads just recently visited the US Embassy to make sure the US would still assist with the 20 year maintenance that is due soon. As long as they don't use them on their own people; it is unlikely to be a problem. F-35 sales might be a different story, but I noticed Oz is buying 72 of them.

Thanks for your factual post.

It could be added that Chiang Mai was conquered by the Burmese and became their vassal state from 1558 until independence was regained in 1775.

Flying sorties near the border is a way of telling them that it won't happen again.

I have a house here in Pattaya from 2009, so far no problems, it's not sinking and the walls haven't cracked too.

It's cheap to have re mods done but the problem as others noted, difficult to find competent people.

We have now found a fairly competent guy and his prices are fair too so all is good.

No shortage of skilled tradesmen in Thai cities... but there is a serious shortage of farangs who are willing to pay them a decent wage and not nickel n' dime them to death.

You seem to take a lively interest in Chiang Mai and its history and traditions.

I share that interest as well, but I must admit an almost total ignorance of UNESCO and its possible agenda for Chiang Mai.

You mention Luang Prabang - a favorite place of mine, although I've only made three visits and none recently, it impressed me very much at the time. I saw a number of restoration projects being carried out, but I'm not sure to what extent, if any, UNESCO was involved. Their activities in Laos and elsewhere in the region might be an indication of what we can expect here.

The preservation of what is left of the old city of Chiang Mai is a concern to all of us, Thai and farang alike, who don't want to see this unique place turned into another concrete jungle.

It can only be hoped that becoming a UNESCO World Heritage Site will slow down, if not stop the mindless commercial development that has destroyed so much already.

Chiang Mai can grow and prosper outside what is left of the walls and on the ring roads, but the old city should be protected the way so many cities in Europe, large and small, have been.

Whether or not UNESCO can further that objective remains to be seen.

I would balance that with it must be true to its locals - the locals have changed recently to combine wealthier incomers though I doubt that is new in the long history of this country as Lanna. I don't think it should serve transient tourist income which serves the economic aims of a local minority and may force CM to remain out of the times to preserce an older tradition which is no longer relevant. My impression of this town is one where you can feel free and friendly and enjoy the beautiful landscape, it has a beating heart.

What will Chiang Mai gain if it becomes a UNESCO World Heritage Site?

Have other cities benefited from it, or have there been problems? Those are the questions that should be asked.

Historically Chiang Mai has been two cities - within the walls, and without. Foreigners were settled outside the walls. Although there was free movement everywhere and never anything like ghettos here.

Lawas, Shan, Jeen Haw, and in the 19th century, Bangkok Chinese. American Protestant Missionaries, and British teak-wallahs had their communities on the east side of the Ping River.

After the arrival of the missionaries in 1867 they were soon followed by British employees of the teak companies. These two groups were the first resident farangs and they have left many first-person accounts that were subsequently used by a number of distinguished historians. Notably, W.A.R.Wood, Camille Notton, Hans Penth, David Wyatt, and more recently, Andrew Forbes.

The traditional division of the city could be applied to a comprehensive conservation plan where restoration efforts are focused on the old town within the moat - the walls have all but disappeared - and the outside areas allowed to develop freely with few restrictions on commercial activity as long as they don't cause harm.

The rebirth of Chiang Mai as a city that respects its past and encourages the highly refined folk arts of its people might be an example and have a civilizing effect on the crass commercialism seen everywhere now.

To address your concern: I don't think that a conservation plan "...may force CM to remain out of the times to preserve an older tradition which is no longer relevant."

As Faulkner said, "The past is never dead, It's not even past." Nothing confirms that more than the dynamic situation faced by Chiang Mai today.

Some very important decisions have to be made by the people who are in positions of responsibility. Let's hope they will act in everybody's interest - not just their own.

Well before the city even puts it name forward, it should be burying the electricity and telephone wires. An absolute mess. Huge big transformers hanging near the side of the pavement. If it thinks it can submit itself in that state its an absolute joke.

The problem of overhead wires - conspicuous and unsightly as they may be - is an issue that can be dealt with.

Other things, it seems to me, such as bulldozing large areas to make way for commercial development in the old city are a greater threat.

The role that UNESCO could play in conservation efforts and education is the question being asked now. It would be very helpful to have more information to base a judgement on. Getting that information is what is important. I was hoping that it would be forthcoming on this thread.

Don't allow yourself to be distracted by minor issues. Tangled and unruly wires can be compared [in human terms] to an otherwise attractive woman having a bad-hair-day. It can be remedied.

Your knowledgeable and often helpful posts about Chiang Mai history set you apart as one of the members whose interests go beyond pizza, burgers, and police checkpoints.

Choke dee.

I grew up in Westchester County, north of New York City.

Now you can't even do minor repairs on your own home. You need a village permit and the work has to be done by a licenced contractor at grossly inflated prices.

That's just one of the many reasons that I like it better here.

valid point.

but there you get it repeired once.here the contractor have to show up show up several times until it is done properly,in the end= same price

Nonsense.

I do my own work here and it lasts. But if I wanted to have it done by others I would know where to find people in the building trades that would put to shame the Americans and third-world immigrants who call themselves carpenters, electricians, and plumbers in the New York area.

The issue isn't about the quality of the work, it's about the nanny-state laws that forbid you to work on your own house. that's what you should be concerned about if you live in a place where they are in effect.

Laws like that have yet to reach Chiang Mai, and like I said, that's one of the reasons I like it.

They were essentially mercenaries and probably didn't know for sure who the "mastermind" was.

It was the money, the car, and the excitement they wanted.

Try "Yar- soop" ยาสูบ should work, I use to smoke ,the firt time I tryd a Yar soop, on a farm ,to say it make me cough is an understatment, it is strong, try black cat ,meow dum in Thai ,5 bart a packet any Thai shop.

+1

Also try the Black Cat Menthol... 20 baht for a 1 oz. plastic can.

I smoke a pipe myself and usually bring premium pipe tobacco with me when I return from trips to Farangland, but when I run out I'll smoke the Black Cat Menthol.

Incidentally, "Yah-soop" is closer phonetically than "Yar-soop"

Areca nut wrapped in betel leaf with lime and occasionally other ingredients added., is chewed here. Legal as far as I know, it was outlawed for a brief period in the 1940s.

Long-term use turns your lips red/orange and your teeth a shiny black like lacquer.

On the plus side, it is said to increase alertness, stamina, and a sense of well-being... sounds like ganja.

I've never tried it, I have enough bad habits.

Your contention that if Chiang Mai is listed as a UNESCO World Heritage Site it may be the "kiss of death", is worth looking at.

The possibility that more harm than good could come to the city is very real if the work they propose isn't well planned and carried out.

The prominent architect Sumet Jumsai in his books and in his articles in the Journal of the Siam Society has documented the numerous projects of the Fine Arts Department that aimed at creating "historical parks" io attract tourists. These renovations in many cases drastically altered what they meant to preserve. The 1991-92 restoration of Chedi Luang is a case in point, with decorative elements added in Central Thai style; totally ignoring the many examples of Lanna T'ai art that still exist and could have been used as models.

I don't think UNESCO's future plans for the preservation of historical sites in Chiang Mai should be rejected automatically, but I do think that qualified and knowledgeable people in Chiang Mai should be involved in whatever is done.

It's hard to say what if any effect UNESCO has - I do think it is a precursor to big development coming into town though. Thailand and CM have changed so much in the last 15 years - not all is good. I am all for human development, especially pulling the vulnerable out of poverty and enabling the fit to work...but it is so easy for a place to turn into a theme park. I'm talking of things like local cultural monuments being fenced off from locals, local restaurants being replaced by heavy weight chains, public land being redeveloped for private businesses. The locals lose connection to their land, and lose local economic dependance. In times of economic instability, local people will have little recourse but to fall back on the state, ask for handouts, or steal. I highly doubt that the majority of tourists are gaining anything when the 'real place' has been changed beyond recognition. Exit is through the gift shop.

You seem to take a lively interest in Chiang Mai and its history and traditions.

I share that interest as well, but I must admit an almost total ignorance of UNESCO and its possible agenda for Chiang Mai.

You mention Luang Prabang - a favorite place of mine, although I've only made three visits and none recently, it impressed me very much at the time. I saw a number of restoration projects being carried out, but I'm not sure to what extent, if any, UNESCO was involved. Their activities in Laos and elsewhere in the region might be an indication of what we can expect here.

The preservation of what is left of the old city of Chiang Mai is a concern to all of us, Thai and farang alike, who don't want to see this unique place turned into another concrete jungle.

It can only be hoped that becoming a UNESCO World Heritage Site will slow down, if not stop the mindless commercial development that has destroyed so much already.

Chiang Mai can grow and prosper outside what is left of the walls and on the ring roads, but the old city should be protected the way so many cities in Europe, large and small, have been.

Whether or not UNESCO can further that objective remains to be seen.

Watch out Chaingmai.

The best part of a historic and quirky market I visited for years was demolished - directly prior to it becoming a Unesco World Heritage Site - this was in Greenwich London, right before the Olympic games. They kept the cr*ppy tourist cash generating part. But the market loved and run by locals and those with taste was closed. It has now, oh irony or ironies, become the new site for a School of Architecture...what...?

Having visited Luang Prabang which was also designated - I wonder if this is the kiss of death for local places for local people (no joke intended).

Sure for conservation areas I agree - protect those little critters and their grass before we come and stamp on them.

Your contention that if Chiang Mai is listed as a UNESCO World Heritage Site it may be the "kiss of death", is worth looking at.

The possibility that more harm than good could come to the city is very real if the work they propose isn't well planned and carried out.

The prominent architect Sumet Jumsai in his books and in his articles in the Journal of the Siam Society has documented the numerous projects of the Fine Arts Department that aimed at creating "historical parks" io attract tourists. These renovations in many cases drastically altered what they meant to preserve. The 1991-92 restoration of Chedi Luang is a case in point, with decorative elements added in Central Thai style; totally ignoring the many examples of Lanna T'ai art that still exist and could have been used as models.

I don't think UNESCO's future plans for the preservation of historical sites in Chiang Mai should be rejected automatically, but I do think that qualified and knowledgeable people in Chiang Mai should be involved in whatever is done.

I often take paintings of about the size you mention as check-in luggage after packaging them well. If you know someone who is going back to the States. then that would be an option.

Otherwise, Chiang Mai has many shipping companies. The big internationals like FedEx, UPS, DHL, etc. would probably be the fastest but also the most expensive.

There are also many local companies as well. You might try the area around Ban Tawai near Hang Dong. They ship furniture and smaller things via surface and air.

Whatever you do, I would advise removing the glass. It will reduce the weight and it may very well get broken in transit.

Good luck.

About 20 years too late

Yes, if the old city had been protected 20 years ago it would have probably raised the the level of respect and awareness among many young Thais, even if it did nothing else.

It is the Chiang Mai people - the Kohn Muang themselves - that stand accused of allowing their city to be stripped of some of its most important historical artifacts.

Old photos taken around the turn of the 19th century by W.A.R.Wood and a few others show Chiang Mai's fortifications in a state of disrepair, and collapsing in some places, but largely intact. Our children's baby nurse who has stayed on as part of the family, remembers the Tha Phae Gate as a child in the early 1940s complete with its inner defensive courtyard.

The Sanam Luang and the residences of the Chiang Mai Chaos were demolished and the area redeveloped by the central government. At about the same time they suppressed the three Lanna T'ai scripts, and attempted to suppress the spoken - Kahm Muang - language.

The Kohn Muang didn't have the will to resist and consequently lost a large part of their cultural heritage.

That is something even UNESCO wouldn't be able to restore to them.

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I grew up in Westchester County, north of New York City.

Now you can't even do minor repairs on your own home. You need a village permit and the work has to be done by a licenced contractor at grossly inflated prices.

That's just one of the many reasons that I like it better here.

In America you have a choice which state to live in. If nothing else, winters are too cold in New York for me.

New York is well-known as a nanny state. In most states you can do your own building. I could draw my own plans, get my permit, and do my own building including electrical and plumbing. I'd just have to meet the same codes and pass the same inspections that a tradesman would. The building department and inspectors would help me if I had questions.

It's Thailand where the electrical system is allowed to fry you in your own home due to no proper ground. This dangerous electrical system is done by the pros and government approved, or some such nonsense.

CMhomeboy you have to be taking the piss, i know Westchester County and have work in management with a construction / renovation company that often did jobs at the weekend for friends that were tax free. Come on a lot of the construction staff in NY were illegally working.

No, I'm not "taking the piss" I was just stating what the building codes are in Westchester County. They are similar to those in suburbs near big cities all over the country.

In rural areas you can build pretty much whatever you want with minimal interference from the authorities; but in the more prosperous places you are subjected to a bewildering array of nanny state laws and regulations that make life damn near intolerable for many people.

That's why I voted with my feet a long time ago.

Perhaps I misunderstand, but it seems obvious that the confluence of Ping and Li is not far from Chom Thong.

If you start looking for it down south you will find its origins and not the confluence, you are aware of the fact that the flow of the Li river is in Northern direction ?

There is only a single reference and for me unclear if it says made by workers from the sop li village or it might say made by villagers from the sop li area in that case there might never have existed a village by the name Sop Li

Seems unlikely to me that the casting of a big and important image would have been done in the village, usually it was done near the temple where it was to reside.

Like the big one in Wat Chedi Luang that was cast there and on the field next to the temple there were "a thousand furnaces" or Phan Tao where later the temple with the same name was created.

My mistake was in thinking that the Li River flows south instead of north.

So you are right, the confluence with the Ping must be in the Chom Thong area. I still haven't been able to locate Sop-Li village. As MESmith says, rivers on flood plains change their course over time. Both the Ping and Li Rivers undoubtedly have since the 15th century.

Carol Stratton's statement that she visited Sop-Li village should be taken at face value. She is a reliable source of information. I would very much like to make contact with her to clarify this issue and ask her about some other things as well.

She was at one time [and possibly still is] a Chiang Mai resident, and has given one or more talks to the CM Expats Club. Maybe some of the long-time members know her.

Meanwhile, the matter remains unresolved.

Thanks for your input.

What is it in Thai? (Written in Thai, not Romanization of the Thai.)

เจี่ยวกู่หลัน

Or something close to that... my wife's not here at the moment to double-check it.

Good luck finding the plants, I've been taking it in capsules and drinking the brew.