fruittbatt

The beach at Hua Hin is the place to be in April, IMO. It is true there are jelly fish in the Gulf at that time, but they have never deterred me from swimming. Water is warm, there are great breezes in the afternoons, plenty of firm sand to walk on for miles. Occasionally there's a dramatic rain storm which leaves the town feeling fresh and cool. Songkran madness is fairly low key (most bucket and hose activity is on the first day). there are good hotels and apartments for rent, reasonably priced, often with pools. there are fewer tourists in April than in Dec-March, too. Now if it wasn't for the horses and mad beach cowboys, and jet-skis and forests of beach umbrellas.............................

Many years ago I did spend some time going to these bars, also in Pattaya, as I was researching an article I was writing. I delved quite deeply into the lives of the 'boys' and uncovered many a story - often very sad stories.

it's the same story with the girls... the first time i came to thailand (knowing nothing about it) i went to pattaya, based on a suggestion by a male friend who must have been taking the piss. i ended up having a great time just going to the beer bars and chatting with the girls about their lives. many a sad story there as well... got a lot of great insights as to the hows and whys of the industry, and learned that most of the girls were basically good people in a bad position. i figure if i am there to just lend a sympathetic ear and to have a fun time (without sex), no harm is done, and i learn a lot. i still go to pattaya now and then.

i don't like karaoke very much neither bar boys, think the fun with them would be very limited... no need for me to get involved or waste my time.

nothing wrong with bar boys as long as you establish boundaries and don't take them too seriously. i am certainly not above them, have just had a more priveleged life. i have learned more about human nature and thai life from the bar workers in this country than from anyone else.

as an old married woman the original question is irrelevant to me, except to consider the "what if" of being younger, single, lonely, frustrated...and the answer is still "no". however, I have no problem with anyone else going to bars and paying bar boys or girls.

i was interested in your experiences, girlx, because i used to live close to a bar and became friends with several of the workers. sometimes I used to have a drink with them before the first customers arrived and enjoyed very much getting to know a little of their histories, travel experiences, stories. I was also able to help some of the younger ones learn some (hopefully useful) English expressions. This was difficult because of the difference in our ages, and their very real shyness, but I count the experience of being accepted and trusted by all these women to be a great highlight of my life in Thailand. Like you, I enjoy going back to visit them all.

The whole concept of a "home" country is extremely begs the question:

What is "home"?

Is it some place where through an accident of birth or migration your family happens to live? Then why feel obliged to explain why one chooses NOT to live there any longer?

Is "home", some place to which you feel attached through ties of affection, kinship, or nostalgia? Then this is most likely where you are living if you are lucky enough to have the means to do so.

But why leave Australia? OK, how about

* the xenophobia of an extreme, actively racist, right wing gov't that refuses to sign the Kyoto agreement, or recognize the land rights of the aboriginal owners of the country

* the costs of goods and services

* the gloomy environmental prospects of a country with insufficient water, frequent bushfires, an encroaching desert, massive land-clearing, water salinity issues, etc...the place is environmentally doomed IMO ...and largely because it is a mine and a farm and has never developed its huge potential to harness alternative energy sources, despite its huge amount of freely available sunshine....What a stupid country!

* add to the above gripes the farang food, the need to work until one is at least 70 unless one is mega-rich ....and all to pay for expensive facilities, mortgages, taxes.

The greatest things about Australia would be the weather in Queensland and the beaches away from cities. Very similar to Thailand really, only ten times the price.

I think the OP's question might have read "reasons why you STAYED", since the reasons for leaving seem so obvious.

Snakes: live and let live....preferably somewhere else. Most are far more afraid of you than vv. Have never had a close encounter with a cobra, but lived in a rainforest which literally writhed with various harmless pythons, tree snakes, and the occasional taipan or king brown. The doll-eyed pythons used to come in every evening on sunset...they are kind of peach-colored underneath...and festoon the rafters on the verandahs. Occasionally i would tweak their tails to remind them that we lived here too, and they would slither off for a while. I did enjoy having a house which was insect-screened though!

Cockroaches: can't do the Buddhist thing there at all. Bug spray! Can't bring myself to eat the crunchy bits that look like cockies on those Star Bugs stalls either...though I imagine they are crickets, right?

Centipedes: got over that phobia after being bitten on the bum by one. Had to have a tetanus shot, and the folks at the hospital where I worked enjoyed a few good laughs about my midnight visit to Casualty toting a centipede in a jar.

Scorpions.....a hammer job.

Feral pigs...don't mention

Crocodiles...just swim where the water is clear.

There is a greying, conservative looking Frenchman in his fifties who goes up to travelers in the Thapae Gate area and always asks, Do you speak French"? If you say no, he leaves you alone, but if you speak French he tells you that all his money has been stolen and asks for some help.

He has been doing this for many years although I haven't run into him lately.

I think this is the same man who, on learning of the provisions of the new visa regs, tried to book a Tiger air flight to Singapore. Tiger Air? The Thais who told me this were immensely relieved that this very smelly man had finally left the precinct. He had demolished all their preconceptions of how a falang ought to be....

I have had a skirt made at Warorot market which wasn't too bad (or too good) , and the seamstresses there have done some basic alterations for me in the last two years. Thanks are due too to the lady on the corner of my soi, who has a brilliant eye for knowing exactly how much to take something in without even measuring me.

The job at hand requires someone who is a very capable seamstress and who can "think outside the square"... someone with creative flair and a great sense of style. I want a dressmaker who can copy the basic design of a dress I already have, but can incorporate some slightly different features ( a stiffened collar, a high waist-band, a fuller skirt).

Can anyone recommend from first-hand experience a brilliant dressmaker? (I can convey most basic ideas in Thai, and will learn any specialist vocabulary needed if the person has no English).

Thank you, Fanciman, for alerting other posters to what could possibly be a dangerous situation for a naive or physically weak person, esp if travelling alone.

Probably most of us in this forum have our wits about us and are unlikely to be scammed by anyone except a slick farang con artist.

In the absence of more details, it does seem unlikely that many farangs could be "disappeared" without witnesses or an attention-attracting struggle. However if guns are involved, anything is possible, so thanks for spreading the word regardless of evidence: a responsible act IMO.

sounds a bit like one of those urban myths to me ! get out of the car and keep walking dont turn around dont look back !

and what if you were a pedestrian and a car pulled up alongside you with a few gun-toting heavies on board? What would you do?

I am not suggesting this is a likely scenario in Chiang Mai at all. Quite the opposite. However, it is possible, anywhere, and it is helpful to be pre-warned even if anything weird is rumored to have happened, don't you think?

Thank you, Fanciman, for alerting other posters to what could possibly be a dangerous situation for a naive or physically weak person, esp if travelling alone.

Probably most of us in this forum have our wits about us and are unlikely to be scammed by anyone except a slick farang con artist.

In the absence of more details, it does seem unlikely that many farangs could be "disappeared" without witnesses or an attention-attracting struggle. However if guns are involved, anything is possible, so thanks for spreading the word regardless of evidence: a responsible act IMO.

....you begin to think that bling-covered t-shirt with meaningless english words is "cute"

....you can fit into thai-sized fashions

....you seriously consider using whitening cream

....you carry an umbrella, and risk poking other pedestrians' eyes out with it every time you have to walk in a patch of sun

....you refer to other expats as "falang"

....you look askance at "falang" in shorts

....you wonder how people can eat falang food, which is so "na bua" and so "jert"

Condolences to the relatives of the dead Canadian. What an horrific and opportunistic crime!

i do not want to generalise from this incident, but feel angered when I hear of the innocent and vulnerable being attacked, murdered and frightened by vicious individuals or collaborators.

I recently travelled to Laos. At the airport I met an elderly Canadian woman who depended on a walking frame after a hip replacement operation. This old lady was "hiding out" in Laos (according to her story). Her house in a largish Thai town had been robbed, despite her recent installation of a "security system". Everything of value had been removed: in daylight hours. She was literally too afraid to go home, as she had been warned by friends that the robbers would return and would not hesitate to kill her if necessary. She had also been told that seeking Thai police protection was a waste of time. Her only option as she saw it was to sell the house and rent in Laos despite that country's lack of adequate medical services. I sincerely hope that incidents such as the two above do not indicate rising resentment of comparative farang wealth and a growth in violent crimes against "exposed" farangs in Thailand.

Dear Hawaiianeyes,

what a shocking betrayal of your trust, and what a terrible abuse of your grieving time. Thanks for sharing some of the horrific details of GPD's cruelty. It cannot have been easy to do so, especially on this day with its many harrowing memories for you. I can understand how the shock of rape and subsequent pleas for forgiveness by the perpetrator could play on your already conflicting/confused emotions. As a woman I can also understand the desire for peace, and restored personal and interpersonal harmony. I have also forgiven people who did not deserve my forgiveness because I blamed myself for events which I did not initiate nor understand clearly at the time.

I sincerely hope that 2007 will bring you all the peace, clarity, and happiness you deserve.

Best wishes to you and to all who have contributed in a constructive manner to this thread.

I was a particularly naive 18 year old, so when a truly ugly turkey farmer friend-of-a-friend kept asking for a date I eventually agreed to see a movie with him. My motive was probably the worst one anyone could dream up: I felt sorry for the guy because he was awkward. He also had a kind of transparent feral cunning, a big gnarly red nose and eyes of different colours.

When he picked me up, I kept detecting this strange odour from under the tonneau cover of his ute (ozzie for pick-up truck). Took me a while to realize that the smell came from turkey shit and fertilizer, and that he had not cleaned the vehicle before coming to the city for the date. I felt physically ill.

The movie was all about sex and revolution USA-style, this being the 1970's. I kept thinking how my date was probably blown away by radical events he could not possibly have envisioned back on the turkey farm. I kept wishing I was with someone who looked more like Che Guevara than the dork in black polished shoes and a tie who kept trying to slide his arm around me.

I refused invitations of late night drinks and coffees after the film, and psyched myself for the drive home in the evil-smelling farm vehicle. Blessed with a strong stomach, I managed not to throw up until after he had presented me with a gift of a dead turkey and attempted to kiss me goodnight...which I resisted with as much good grace as I could muster. I could not control the physical reaction as the stinky ute's tail-lights faded down the street. In a fit of bloody-mindedness I hurled the trussed turkey over the fence of the neighbour who had threatened to eat my rabbit if it munched on his lettuces again.

Donna and K and November Rain and all on this forum who are hurting or feeling "homesick" or missing families at Xmas,

a huge and heartfelt HUG to you all. The pain will get better with time, Donna. Ride with the horrible, hurtful punches for as long as it takes to recover. You are strong, and will emerge even stronger. K, can your mum come to you, or is she too sick? I hope she is not in great pain.

I farewelled my daughter back to Brisbane from Bangkok the other day, after spending 3 weeks in Laos and Thailand together. Am missing her already, but keep telling myself that Xmas doesn't mean much to me as a Buddhist. The truth is that Xmas does make me want to be around my family (well, SOME of them). I also miss the Woodford folk festival, which is a very powerful and peaceful way of starting any new year.

Best wishes to you all for a very happy and successful 2007.

The colonisation of Thailand by foreign-owned corporations will have far-reaching effects: on property rents, cultural values, who gets the tourist and the local buck 'n' baht, distribution of wealth, and what constitutes "Thai-ness".

As posters have already pointed out, local pharmacists who provide a good service will be squeezed out by the big names like Boots with their exotic foreign beauty products (whitening cream galore), nose-hair extractors and other rubbish. I do agree with Taxexile that it is important to impose quality control on pharmaceuticals, but importing MNC's hardly seems like the way to go. Government regulation and inspection would sort out bad medicine.

Slightly off-topic, but something that gets me reacting every time is the Starbucks Tha-Pae electricity box, which protrudes right out from the corner of the footpath, and constitutes yet another pedestrian hazard IMHO. I wrote a message on it last year suggesting that all who considered it dangerous complain to management. I had mentioned the positioning of the box to Starbucks staff myself, but was told the placement was temporary...a year later it seems to be permanently temporary. If Starbucks thinks so little of pedestrians and safety measures, they can keep their dishwater that passes for "coffee". Wawee for me every time.

Kind thoughts, Little Black Duck. Hope you have a great 25th December, and a very happy 2007.

great idea, BambinA! Happy holidays to you and a great 2007 to everyone who has contributed to the Ladies' in Thailand forum.

maple,

slated is christian,and he is like many i met in america in the past that he is strict christian and they really do not have 'relations' before marriage; the same as most orthodox jews i know here in israel... they really do wait until marriage.... i just remembered as he had asked about christian associations in thailand a long group of posts ago...

and btw, my 19 yr old daughter has been dating an ethiopian traditional jewish guy for a year and they are both, yes, virgins.... as he is and she is still 'waiting for the right one' ... it does happen u know.

bina and anon

It's not about not having sex that I found suspect, it's taking up time on the ladies forum about it. I see that pumpuiman and fruitbatt alluded to this before. Reading between the lines for me sounds like this:

"Mom, I am such a good little boy! Look what a good little boy I am! So handsome and decent and pure! Do you see? Do you see what a good little boy I am?

"Oh, mother dear, protect me from those brutish, rude men for I am not like them! I am a delicate sensitive flower that must not be plucked before it's time.

"Oh, what a good little boy I am!"

I am not being entirely kind in making my point, but this is what I hear. This forum is supposed to be for women supporting women, right? Or stuff that comes up for women that they want other ladies' support or thoughts about.

This thread strikes me as a guy taking up women's attention and indirectly seeking approval. It reminds me of a dynamic in the US where people of color often say that they'd rather deal with the overt racism of the South than the smile-in-your-face-but-stab-you-in-the-back, hidden and sometimes subtle racism of the North. Maybe I'd rather have the blatant sexism with no pretense than the guy who thinks he's being good but sucking up just as much of women's energy. Go start a forum for sensitive guys supporting sensitive guys (or whatever you want to call it) instead.

Whilst this is a bit harsh on Mr now-well-and-truly-slated, i share some

resonance with what you perceive, Mapletree. In particular, i have reservations about such postings on a women's forum because of the inherent assumption that women are innately more sympathetic than men.

I think it is the dissonance between the avatar and the verbal message that bothered me in this thread.

The avatar, whether it be Mr Slated or Mr Universe, invites a female focus on a (supposed) conventionally attractive male body. Predictably appreciative responses from several women posters surely provided instant ego-gratification to Mr. Slated. Whilst i have heard of "muscular Christians", if Mr Slated is as narcissistic as his avatar suggests, then his claim to be a "good boy" seems improbable IM experience and opinion. Or perhaps he is just utterly confused and gives off distressingly mixed messages to his potential partners.

Not exactly that. Thai guys are known for treating their wife/gf like shit, beat them up, cheat and much more.

Instead of allowing the thread to degenerate into that great sport of some competitive farang men: Thai men bashing, I would prefer to consider SBK's original questions.

I am not sure whether the book referred to stats gathered in Thailand or worldwide. If indeed it was about Thailand, then I imagine class, family networks, peer pressure and peer-networks, intellectual compatibility and mutual interests would all be factors in decisions to marry a partner with a similar educational level.

It is tempting to consider the situation re education along country/metropolitan cultural lines: does the Bangkok middle class have more access to a pool of similarly-educated potential partners, more pressure to marry and to marry a partner from a similar background? Does the corollary hold true? ie that country folk are under less pressure to legalise a partnership before producing children, less likely to have an extensive education etc, less opportunity to meet a partner of the same "class"?

Too many variables IMO. Interesting post, though.

A few years ago when I was in Thailand for Christmas I was trying to explain about it to my partner's Thai friends. The whole idea that Jesus was born of a virgin impregnated by a spirit got some hearty laughs. Very bizarre sounding belief to non-Christians. There were other parts of Jesus' story I'm forgetting just now that elicited the same response--like, "how funny that anyone would really believe THAT!"

Depends on what you were taught growing up and then held onto, doesn't it?

Excellent point. Irrational beliefs abound in every culture, and ethnocentrism often prevents people from recognizing their own culture's "superstitions"/legends/myths for what they are.

Congratulations Taxexile!

I always enjoy your debating style and humour. Look forward to many future posts and the opportunity to spar or concur with you in the years ahead.

And hearty congratulations to ThaiVisa, too.

I've not seen this phenomenon in Thailand, but "whirly winds" or sudden column-like mini tornadoes are common enough in dry regions of Australia. Something to do with heat differentials?

The ghost explanation is very appealing in that it recognizes the irreparable "loss" and damage caused to the earth by environmental degradation.

Bkk90201,

congratulations on a good original idea.

You have inspired me to write my recollection of Ko Samui in the mid 1970s. I am far too cowardly and fearful of criticism to cast my swine before the pearls who inhabit this thread, but thanks for getting me started. Perhaps I will get the courage to post the story when I have finished it.

Meanwhile, I hope some "old Timers" may enlighten us with some of their great stories.

I went several years ago, with a local Tai Yai hill tribe family who thought that was what a farang tourist would want to see. I was apalled, and imagine that a woman would react even worse. There are other hill tribe villages where the women are making handicraft and it's commercial-touristy, but the other villages are not half as predatory as the long-neck spectacle. If you explain this to your lady friend, maybe she won't want to see women in a zoo, displayed like carnival freaks. I apologize if my depiction dishonors the women, but that was my experience/impression.

Absolutely my reaction too, PeaceBlondie. And I don't think your description dishonors the women at all: that has been done by the tourist industry.

La Reina, there is heaps to see and do if you and your friend do come to Chiang Mai. As Blondie said, there are other "show" villages and treks if your friend really wants to "see" the hilltribes. There are many natural attractions like waterfalls, mountains, rafting, walks, all easy to see in a day's drive or a "tour". There is the "Golden Triangle" & crazy opulent opium museum, countless temples, spas and other forms of pampering, elephant rides, elephant refuges, learning to be an elephant mahout, 1-day Thai cooking courses, massage courses, silver jewellery-making courses, the zoo, the infamous Night Safari, the Ratchapruek floral expo....which is HUGE, river trips to caves at Pai etc etc. Then there is the shopping....

Yes, Gisele, and it is quite a culture shock when a "rational" conversation is suddenly diverted into a surreal mystical realm without any change of tone by the Thai speaker.

A recent example: our resident computer whizz and wireless provider also belongs to a well-known meditation organisation. He never misses an opportunity to push his spiritual agenda. We were discussing quality of printers etc when he showed us some photographs of "angels" that he'd taken at a recent meditation meeting in Bangkok. These were like bubbles of light. We expressed polite interest but refrained from pointing out that in certain conditions such as the presence of mega-powerful sodium lights, refraction will produce such images on the camera lens!

I enjoy the co-existence of mystical and rational thought, but eating the dog's head is pretty far out on left field!

Any tour/travel shop will be able to sell you a mini-bus ticket for a tour which includes a "long-neck" village. However, you and your friend may prefer to hire a car with driver for the day, so that you can plan a scenic drive which includes a long-neck village.

Mr Chatree who works from outside the Night Bazaar Place on Chang Klan Road is a good driver and a great human being. He speaks quite good English, and will help you in any way possible. His rates are moderate.

Personally I found it very uncomfortable going to gawk at villagers who have been "deformed" for the sake of beauty. I went several years ago as part of a "day tour". It felt intrusive and I would never go again.