15Peter20

Have there been any pictures or videos posted yet, to support the story in the OP, about white-mask guards carrying iron-bars to assault passing Reds on motorbikes ?

I didn't see any yet.

If you click on the link at the foot of the OP you should find what you are looking for.

It's not really a matter of who is worse, it's a matter who provoked possible violence. With 'provoking' I do not mean the mere fact of protesting peacefully. That's within normal bounds.

In CM a small group of white masks was set upon by a large, 200 red-shirt crowd which had formed elsewhere and marched purposefully towards the white masks.

In Bangkok we have a white mask protest and protesting that we have a red-shirt protest right opposite on the same street. That I would call provocative. The precise info on the red-short motorcycles is lacking, unclear if they 'just happened to join up' or were just driving on the wrong side of the road.

BTW before I'm accused of double standards, see my post #5 here.

Fair enough. the only thing I would question is that 200 reds 'set upon' a small group. If this had happened - without police intervention as reports suggest - how come no one went to hospital? 200 reds may well have been there, but I would only say a much smaller number were involved in the violence, just like the few metal-rod bearing whitemasks didn't equate to an entire group of bloodthirsty idiots.

And as to the question of provocation, that's so difficult to prove as it becomes a chicken-and-egg proposition. Of more interest is to consider what the likely outcomes would be if one group was seen as the trouble-maker and the other the innocent and wronged party. This though is mainly significant on a wider scale - its impact on public perception.

One should also remember though that at street level there is the element of tribal breastbeating we also see in violence between groups such as rivals schools and other gangs. When these folks get all carried away they contribute to the broader outcome, possibly to the detriment of their own broader group (they exist in smaller groups with whom they identify more readily then with the umbrella 'red shirt movement') without even really thinking about it hence the redshirts apparent ability to throw reason out of the window - together with public endorsement - each time a few of their nuttier members goes mad in response to a banner or somesuch, as happened yesterday in Chiang Mai.

I can't believe you really mean this

"And as to the question of provocation, that's so difficult to prove as it becomes a chicken-and-egg proposition. Of more interest is to consider what the likely outcomes would be if one group was seen as the trouble-maker and the other the innocent and wronged party. This though is mainly significant on a wider scale - its impact on public perception."

It is an almost guaranteed thing to have the red shirts set up a rally opposite the Dems or any other anti government rally after the anti Government rally has been announced. In Chiang Mai they formed their rally and then marched to where the white mask rally was.

The question of provocation, is an automatic yes. The red shirts are forming up to cause disruption in a group of people who are smarter than them and can see that money is flowing out of their wallet not into it.

I agree with you in as much as being in close proximity with a rival group is to court danger. Whether or not it constitutes sufficient provocation for the other group to turn violent is debatable though. At the end of the day, it was the red shirts that were guilty of violent disorder yesterday, and the whitemasks guilty of it today. I guess in the west the police would ensure that the two groups didn't come near each other.

It's not really a matter of who is worse, it's a matter who provoked possible violence. With 'provoking' I do not mean the mere fact of protesting peacefully. That's within normal bounds.

In CM a small group of white masks was set upon by a large, 200 red-shirt crowd which had formed elsewhere and marched purposefully towards the white masks.

In Bangkok we have a white mask protest and protesting that we have a red-shirt protest right opposite on the same street. That I would call provocative. The precise info on the red-short motorcycles is lacking, unclear if they 'just happened to join up' or were just driving on the wrong side of the road.

BTW before I'm accused of double standards, see my post #5 here.

Fair enough. the only thing I would question is that 200 reds 'set upon' a small group. If this had happened - without police intervention as reports suggest - how come no one went to hospital? 200 reds may well have been there, but I would only say a much smaller number were involved in the violence, just like the few metal-rod bearing whitemasks didn't equate to an entire group of bloodthirsty idiots.

And as to the question of provocation, that's so difficult to prove as it becomes a chicken-and-egg proposition. Of more interest is to consider what the likely outcomes would be if one group was seen as the trouble-maker and the other the innocent and wronged party. This though is mainly significant on a wider scale - its impact on public perception.

One should also remember though that at street level there is the element of tribal breastbeating we also see in violence between groups such as rivals schools and other gangs. When these folks get all carried away they contribute to the broader outcome, possibly to the detriment of their own broader group (they exist in smaller groups with whom they identify more readily then with the umbrella 'red shirt movement') without even really thinking about it hence the redshirts apparent ability to throw reason out of the window - together with public endorsement - each time a few of their nuttier members goes mad in response to a banner or somesuch, as happened yesterday in Chiang Mai.

This looks like some red propaganda to me, why is only reported in this news paper, a pro Thaksin propaganda rag. The people in the picture are dressed in pink, and no assaults, white masks, redshirts or motorbikes are evident in them.

This is all I could find. Hope it helps:

Khaosod Newspaper Thailand is a Thai daily newspaper with national circulation. Founded on April 9th 1991, Khaosod is the youngest newsprint of Matichon Publishing Group which also operates two other daily news publications: Matichon and Prachachat.

Khaosod is more ‘mass-oriented’ and ‘upcountry-focused’ in style than its sister newspapers under Matichon Group, as its circulation records show 300,000 copies per day. Nevertheless, despite heavy features on crimes, local affairs, and entertainment like other major national newspapers (such as Thai Rath and Daily News), the newspaper also remains keen on political and social issues similar to its sister newspapers Matichon and Prachachat. As a news publication under Matichon Group, Khaosod is under management of Kanchai Boonparn who also oversees Matichon Group as a whole.

Red shirts attack peaceful whitemasks - this violence is deplorable.

Whitemasks attack peaceful redshirts - this violence is understandable.

hhmm...I think I'm getting the hang of moral supremacy 101 a la TV now.

Well now try to grasp some advanced concepts like "quantity" and "intensity".

Okay, I'll give it a go.

Violent red shirts pictured yesterday - 6-ish?

Violent whitemasks pictured today - 2-3?

Verdict - red shirts are worse.

Red shirt intensity pictured yesterday - very angry with sticks, fists and boots

Whitemasks intensity pictured today - calm with metal rods

Verdict - whitemasks are worse due to deadlier weapons, although possibly a tie since the reds looked so angry

Feel free to pass judgement if you wish.

^ Peter.

We are not only listening, but reacting immediately. BTW no info on injury count is not zero injuries.

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/647030-white-mask-guards-seen-trying-to-hit-redshirts-with-iron-bars/

Thanks for that, I didn't see that thread. So who is agitating who and why? That's worth 10 points with a 5 point bonus for the most creative reasoning.

What is the official injury count of this violent attack so far?

As far as has been reported so far, pretty much zero. What we have seen on the local news would probably be described in western media as a scuffle the like of which we see at every G8 summit, assorted football matches around the world and outside pubs after closing on a regular basis. Not to mention the far worse scenes witnessed in places such as London and most recently Stockholm when riots break out.

But this is the red shirts, so a red shirt scuffle must by definition be far more sinister and dastardly even if it involves a grand total of...a dozen people? Stay tuned though, the reds are again on alert tonight in CM so maybe we will get to see some meatier scenes. I'm just wondering - who wins and who loses support among the broader electorate when reds are shown to 'terrorize' peaceful anti-government demonstrators this way? As the reactionaries on this forum so ably demonstrate, it would be the red shirts whose reputation would be further tarnished. Now who would want that to happen?

No excuse ever for assaulting peaceful protesters, so the hotheaded elements of the red shirts remain a thorn in their own side and are ripe for exploitation by those who know how easily these few can be cajoled into losing their minds to the detriment of their own movement. And I don't buy the idea that this small group are paid to agitate. If they were, surely they'd be making a terrible hash of it by returning the kind of injury count (0) we currently see, even with the police standing by reportedly letting it happen.

"I accepted this invitation not only because I wanted to visit a country that has made many achievements regarding democracy, or to exchange ideas and views on democracy. But I am here also because democracy is so important to me, and more importantly, to the people of my beloved home, Thailand......Why? This is because there are people in this world who do not believe in democracy. They are ready to grab power and wealth through suppression of freedom. This means that they are willing to take advantage of other people without respecting human rights and liberties. They use force to gain submission and abuse the power. This happened in the past and still posed challenges for all of us in the present". Yingluck Shinawatra.

It appears that the greatest threat to democracy in Thailand today is the Shinawatra clan their PT Party and its coalition government and their redshirt thugs.

PS: Is it just me or are the above videos unavailable?

No, the greatest threat to democracy in Thailand is, as it always is, the authoritarian attitude which still prevails amongst what's probably a majority of the populace. Democratic values haven't been assimilated yet because of decades of authoritarian rule and the encouragement of 'quiet politics', e.g. the avoidance of conflict (i.e. disagreement which is the basis for any true politics) and acquiescence to rule by a narrow section of elite society, whether they be from the military, aristocracy or more recently the business class. People, whether red shirts, yellow shirts, or the recently formed 'white masks', will appeal to democratic values when it suits their side, but will do nothing to stand for principles in themselves when it doesn't affect them. Many of the white masks are holding signs calling for the military to 'save the nation' (again) - and doesn't that prove that they've learned nothing? The same group that caused much of the trouble due to constant coups and interference post-1932 are being called upon again as potential saviours. And thus the same authoritarian structures & attitudes are perpetuated ad infinitum...

Watching the two groups in the video reminds me of Gregory Bateson's thesis contention that the cause of conflict tends to be symmetry rather than opposition. Historians of SE-Asia have described a 'solar polity' wherein political power is centralized and emanates outwards, diminishing in proportion with distance from the star. This is still a useful concept with which to analyze the personalized politics of the 21st century. Not much has changed since the days of Ramkhamhaeng in some respects. For instance, on the red side, Thaksin is the sun around which lesser politicians and political activists orbit. If you were to outline a similar cartography of power for the yellow shirts, you'd likely discern a very similar pattern, although it's true that names and faces have come and gone.

Such structures of power distribution are antithetical to any true democratic politics, by which I mean a democracy that results in a more equitable diffusion of power throughout society, rather than a democracy that means people get to vote every four years but nothing else changes. Unfortunately, none of this will change until democratic attitudes are inculcated. I believe there are people on all sides (by which I also mean no side) who share these principles and strongly believe in them. Coming back to Sombat, he may have more in common in terms of principle with some of the activists involved in the white masks than he does with many of the authoritarian red shirts. And vice versa. There are also people that are anti-Thaksin that aren't calling for military takeover, who don't want to see grandfathers dying in jail for sending SMS messages (true or not), neither are they in favour of beating up law professors etc.

Politics has become intensely polarized but amongst the majority it's more to do with personality and power than principle. As far as it's possible to discern broad principles in either group though: perhaps we could say that the red shirts are broadly promoting the idea that sovereignty resides with the people and some of the more liberal amongst the yellow shirts - who were certainly more prevelant in the early days of 2006 than they later became - were talking about minority rights and authoritarianism, they were against the idea that because a majority voted for someone that made everything he did legitimate. The way forward for Thailand would be for a group of protesters who combine both these sets of ideals to be pressuring the government and trying to exert a positive influence on wider society. Unfortunately, people on both sides have sacrificed principles - if they ever held them - in order to try make short term gains based on compacts with authoritarian power, whether that be Thaksin or his military and aristocratic opposition. This is why Michael Connors described those liberals who supported the coup as 'contingent authoritarians'. They believed that in order to safeguard liberal ideals, they'd have to become authoritarians on a temporary basis until the threat disappeared. Obviously in retrospect that looks dangerously naive. And isn't it - at least partly - exactly this sort of thinking that is preventing the country from moving towards genuine democracy?

Hence I'd urge any white mask who does oppose Thaksin based on democratic principles to stop calling upon extra-constitutional powers to step in and turf out elected governments. As long as they keep doing this, they'll continue to be a part of the problem, not a solution to it...

An excellent overview of the current situation and a breath of fresh air amid all this partisanship both on TV and the broader playing field. I wish there were more posts like this. Thank you!

Are we going to hit 50? There will be huge orders to sell at 50. I need to get my money over ASAP before this whole thing collapses! 5 days? Argh.... Need to go to the head branch of BB apparently if I want to open a Sterling A/C here. Hope they don't charge for the privilege.

Yes, I'm well under 6 figures but it still makes a huge difference in what I get baht wise, I don't understand the reasoning behind 6 figures or less doesn't matter.

You can open a Sterling account at most branches, it doesn't need to be Head Office.

There is no charge to open a Sterling account but there is a charge to withdraw the funds in it, 5% as I recall - alternatively there is an annual charge if the funds are left untouched, 5% I think - it's not a good deal at all, I think.

I think the charge for withdrawing from a foreign currency account is particularly steep when transferring the funds to another bank. If you transfer into a current account with the same bank (at least this is true for BKK bank), I don't think there's a charge. But if you want to release the funds into another bank's current account the best thing is to first put it in a temporary current account with the same bank as holds the FX account, then use a cashiers cheque to move it to another bank's account. Cheaper that way.

But it really is that bad, to the point that if you really love your kids and think their education isn't important, and can't afford to home school them or spend THB 600K+ per year each for tuition at one of the country's dozen or so decent international schools it would be irresponsible of you to remain here no matter how miserable you'd be returning home.

Absolutely agree. And if you can't afford it and are putting your kids through the Thai system then you are putting your needs ahead of theirs. And before I get hammered...yes I had my two children in a Thai school for several years, yes my kids are now in an international school, yes it is totally different and yes it is better and yes it is expensive and no I am not on a huge expat package and yes if I couldn't afford the schooling I would probably pack up and head to whence I came. OK, just hang on while I put my crash helmut on.

...don't forget to remove your halo first.

Don't do the Hong Thong. Do Hundred Pipers at the very least but even that isn't too great.

Yes, the Thai education system is poor. However if you plan for your kids to live in Thailand after they graduate then it is still worth the expense to put them in a decent school/university here. It's like designer clothes. The 'label' goes a long way for the rest of their lives. As long as they can show they went to a good private school/college in Thailand they should end up with decent jobs and a decent quality of life here.

My kids are fluent in Thai and English, giving them an immediate advantage over many Thai students. In Thailand - with its poor education system and all - they can look forward to an above-average employment record, better than if they went to England and became mediocre job applicants among the other hundreds of thousands (millions?) of similarly aged graduates currently struggling to find work over there.

Does anyone know if CM Immigration are still not issuing residence certificates? My understanding was that they were trying to restore the service and were waiting on extra staff in order to do so. A month ago they were saying they hoped to have the service back in a month's time so I'm just wondering.

Thanks in advance.

15Peter

Not clear to me why the comparison between a Focus and an Almera. I could be wrong but I thought the Focus competition is the Altis, Civic, Cruze and Sylphy, for example. I own a 2011 Altis and as previously mentioned a friend has the new Focus. Another friend just purchased the Nissan Sylphy. From the passenger seat, the car with the best ride and most bang for the baht is the Focus. However, rear seat comfort is important to me so I would not purchase the Focus for that reason. The Sylphy was a disappointment, but the rear seat was very roomy.

Agreed. There's no point in comparing the Almera/Focus as they fall in different segments of the market. Almera v Vios/Fiesta/City is fair enough though. Just look at the prices to know their relative competition.

Yes, sorry, I only brought up the Almera to help people get the picture about how long a Focus is. I get the feeling there are more Almeras out there than Focuses so thought more people would be familiar with the length of an Almera.

I could also have said something like 'A Focus is about the length of one and a half horses' - again, without meaning to offer an equine alternative to buying a Focus. Anyway, mine's still going nicely and is a pleasure to drive over long distances. Have just done over 2000Km in less than 3 weeks without any significant issues.

I just got a focus titanium+ (2013). It's not a big car - smaller than a 1.2L Almera,

Eh? It might not be quite as high as an Almera, but it's bigger in every other dimension.

I've got both a Focus and Almera (both 2013, both top of the line), which is why I felt I could make that comment. Parked them both side by side. As you say, the Almera is taller. It also has a bigger boot than the Focus. It also has more leg room in the back, and the Focus is not visibly bigger length ways. Of course the Focus is better in many ways, but in terms of dimensions and space I don't think it beats the Almera in any department.

If anyone can reproduce the relative specs regarding this, I will happily defer to those.

I'm not presupposing anything. Just wish some other 'career' posters here were the same.

Bless.

Thank you!

They only act when people start breaking the rules.

At ~2.50 you hear about the red guard stopping the protesters "surging forward" getting too close to the army.

At 3.36 you hear the first boom. The first M79...?

In the aftermath, the protesters were free to attack the army, in whatever injured state they were in.

I can understand why protester would pay attention to what the guards preach.

So the last 'announcement' by the red shirt guards - according to you on that day - was to stop the protesters surging forward. Doesn't seem overly offensive to me, but anyway I'm trying to get a handle on what happened today. Specifically, I'm looking for evidence of the 'tight control' that red shirt guards had over today's demonstrators in ensuring that no violent conduct took place. You have explicitly said they have tight control over the demonstrators so I hoped to have some evidence of that occurring today. Cheers.

10 days ago:

>Around noon, a woman in her 30s dressed in black lambasted the media near the rally stage opposite Parliament.

One of the red shirts shouted out that she was not a red shirt, causing others to flock to her.

Red-shirt guards rushed to remove her from the scene as others tried to assault her physically. The woman fled in one of the buses that carried the red shirts to Parliament, before she was pulled out and hit in the head.

Source: http://www.nationmultimedia.com/politics/Yellows-stay-as-reds-head-to-Parliament-30205735.html

The protest the article refers to was relatively minor compared to today's 20,000+ (?) turnout.

You really believe this same guard, operating under the same modus operandi, was not present today?

Like you, I don't know for sure. But if it was their 'modus operandi' surely there would have been a standoff at least? I like to know facts before I get all agitated. The only thing that is apparent is that 20,000+? red shirts gathered in town yesterday and there was no violence as far as I can tell. Did red shirt guards/leaders/Thaksin have control over everything they did? If so, does their non-violence mean those parties are not bent on violent confrontation? I'm not presupposing anything. Just wish some other 'career' posters here were the same.

That's more like it. Maybe so, maybe not, depending on what proof you have of such tight control. Thanks anyway.

The "red shirt guard" do have such control. News articles, YouTube videos and other eyewitness accounts confirming such are really not hard to find...

So you should be able to source announcements where the 'red shirt guard' has told everyone to be peaceful on this occasion, right?

They only act when people start breaking the rules.

At ~2.50 you hear about the red guard stopping the protesters "surging forward" getting too close to the army.

At 3.36 you hear the first boom. The first M79...?

In the aftermath, the protesters were free to attack the army, in whatever injured state they were in.

I can understand why protester would pay attention to what the guards preach.

So the last 'announcement' by the red shirt guards - according to you on that day - was to stop the protesters surging forward. Doesn't seem overly offensive to me, but anyway I'm trying to get a handle on what happened today. Specifically, I'm looking for evidence of the 'tight control' that red shirt guards had over today's demonstrators in ensuring that no violent conduct took place. You have explicitly said they have tight control over the demonstrators so I hoped to have some evidence of that occurring today. Cheers.

That's more like it. Maybe so, maybe not, depending on what proof you have of such tight control. Thanks anyway.

The "red shirt guard" do have such control. News articles, YouTube videos and other eyewitness accounts confirming such are really not hard to find...

So you should be able to source announcements where the 'red shirt guard' has told everyone to be peaceful on this occasion, right?

I thought the red shirts were supposed to be violent. Why didn't it kick off?

Yep, this peaceful (6 hour?) gathering has completely eradicated the memories which occurred during that 2 month siege. What have I completely forgot about? Let's see...

The blood pouring... can't remember a thing about it.

The M79 attacks on the soldiers...

The armed "black shirts" firing at the soldiers...

The lynching of injured soldiers shortly afterwards...

The (first!) raiding of the hospitals to collect and display the bodies of the protesters...

The stockpiling of weapons... can't remember nada...

The M79 firing of the opposing protest at Silom.

The hospital raids which followed at Chula.

The burning of Central World. Which might as well be forgotten as the red shirts didn't do it anyway. Honest.

The burning and ransacking of the 7-11's along Sukhumvit during the night after the clampdown...

The various bombings around the city, which stopped after they blew themselves up in Bang Bua Tong... really difficult to forget, but I think this gathering helped managed it...

Yep, the pictures of the red shirts with those "toy" weapons today helped eradicate all these memories. Yay peaceful reds.

My question was why it didn't kick off, which your insightful reminiscences have failed to answer. Maybe try again?

Because they are lovely and peaceful and nice. When they are told to be.

That's more like it. Maybe so, maybe not, depending on what proof you have of such tight control. Thanks anyway.

I thought the red shirts were supposed to be violent. Why didn't it kick off?

Yep, this peaceful (6 hour?) gathering has completely eradicated the memories which occurred during that 2 month siege. What have I completely forgot about? Let's see...

The blood pouring... can't remember a thing about it.

The M79 attacks on the soldiers...

The armed "black shirts" firing at the soldiers...

The lynching of injured soldiers shortly afterwards...

The (first!) raiding of the hospitals to collect and display the bodies of the protesters...

The stockpiling of weapons... can't remember nada...

The M79 firing of the opposing protest at Silom.

The hospital raids which followed at Chula.

The burning of Central World. Which might as well be forgotten as the red shirts didn't do it anyway. Honest.

The burning and ransacking of the 7-11's along Sukhumvit during the night after the clampdown...

The various bombings around the city, which stopped after they blew themselves up in Bang Bua Tong... really difficult to forget, but I think this gathering helped managed it...

Yep, the pictures of the red shirts with those "toy" weapons today helped eradicate all these memories. Yay peaceful reds.

My question was why it didn't kick off, which your insightful reminiscences have failed to answer. Maybe try again?

"Chalerm does not need to have six Articles in the bill - two is enough: Article one says Thaksin can do nothing wrong, and Article two says if he does, look at Article one,'' Thepthai said.

Threw up in my mouth a little bit on that one. For a country based upon saving face, does the government have any idea how badly moronic statements like this one play out in the foreign press ???? Regarding this appointment, clearly this is part of the new " cabinet appointments for fools" program. Based upon that, where is a post for Jatuporn's wacko associate Arisman, Mr. million liters of gas and burn down Bangkok ??

I smell coup on the way, which is the classic reaction when the current government goes berserk with power and looting......

Why do people keep on fretting about how things 'play out in the foreign press'. So silly. Do you think the US and other states get their intelligence from newspapers? Do you think the Thai government seeks international sanction as a justification for its domestic policies? How naive.

Either take notice of what the Thai people themselves want, or quit the armchair forecasting. You, and me and other TV'ers, are nothing to Thailand compared to what the electorate at large wants. Even foreign governments have their secondary place next to the most important way of getting power - the Thai people. Sure, Thai politics may seem like a ship of fools, but you too are on that ship and your future existence on it is governed to some degree by them. Accept it. Whinging about it to similarly disenfranchised aliens on the internet just seems like a waste of your life's time. Go and enjoy yourself, while you still can!

I thought the red shirts were supposed to be violent. Why didn't it kick off?

They only just set up camp. A few days of brainwashing by those on the red stage and free whiskey at night and they would/will be off. Have they all gone home now?

If they have gone home, would that mitigate your speculation of forthcoming violence, or would you say that knowing there was violence to come, the red shirt leaders acted responsibly in dispersing the crowd? Or, regardless of anything I could possibly write, would you still have a go at the red shirt crowd that gathered there?

I just got a focus titanium+ (2013). It's not a big car - smaller than a 1.2L Almera, and I wouldn't get one if it's just for short city trips as the fuel consumption isn't great, but my god it comes into its own on the open road.

Floored it at 140Kph and still got pushed back in my seat. Took it up to 200Kph without much effort although obviously there's not too many places you can (or should) do that. Torque on overtaking makes it very quick and easy. For me, these are the main things, but there's also all the gadgets and I particularly like the steering getting heavier the faster you go. It feels total quality - just hope it can maintain this performance over a number of years.

Okay, it hasn't got satnav, but just get a standalone one for up to 12K and you can use it in any car you drive.

Also, got to say the cornering is very comfortable at high speed and the sound system is great - the first time I've noticed panning make a noticeable difference in a car. It's a bit 'trebley' even when using the equalizer, but still, the best I've heard in a car in this price bracket. Haven't noticed the 'grinding' sound described elsewhere but usually have music on loud so can't hear much else. On a few occasions I've had some gear-related 'feedback' through the brake peddle when decelerating at low speed, but it's got a 3 year warranty so I'm not worried for now.