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We already have those orange Euro buses. Why the new ones should be worse than that?

I don't know if some of the new buses will be non-aircon. Maybe not.

Today there's a mention of an independent study that say they could pay 40% less. No details.

Abhisit says all the details should be made public (he's in Korea now).

Govt parties push the deal to benefit from corruption, opposition party wants to scrap it to slap the govt on the face. Dems want to preserve their clean image and not piss off BJ party (nice abbreviation).

Then there are senators and other independents. Too many cooks can always spoil the soup.

BMTA wants the bloody buses on the streets asap. Me too.

Seems a bit off that one bloke should simply be appointed as the Boss.

"Suriyasai said the party's executive positions agreed yesterday were temporary and that a general meeting to select a new executive board would be held within 60 days after the Election Commission endorsed the party registration."

According to Sondhi:

"There will be no party owners to order who should be the party leader. The party's supporters will nominate candidates and vote who should be party leader"

The Nation

Now House panel on corruption decided to study the issue, too.

I wish someone would just come out and explained all the details, especiall why they need to pay 17million per bus, albeit over ten years. It's silly to speculate over this without any numbers, and it's the only matter that really bothers people, they don't need to dwell on NGV stations and bus conductors, just break down 17 mil, that's all.

And that goes for both parties - those in favour and against the project.

even Thai politicians aren't brazen enough to put it in writing in order to provide someone with convenient evidence. These things are done by word of mouth.

You mean to say that PTP and Red Truth are holding out some corruption charges that could damange the Democrats? Has it been snowing in Pattaya, too?

Newin was in still in PTP himself when the deal first came up. They know all the details.

They trimmed the total cost by half already. Politicians who thought it would be gravy train for life had to be disappointed.

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Daily rent has been trimmed by about 20% and now they are talking about little things, basically making sure buses won't be "high-end". Three teams were working on the costs - BMTA, Nesdac, and senators. Everybody complained about high costs but no one has found any way to reduce them, apart from proposing local production.

They are leasing the buses and don't have to pay for maintanance and service costs, which should be significant over ten years of daily use, that has to be done by the supplier.

The contract will be up for auction and any company that can deliver and maintain 4,000 buses for ten years can enter. Some say that the TOR are rigged in favour of particular Chinese suppliers but the job is not a small one, if you think about it.

They decided to lease because there's no way BMTA with 60 billion in debth can afford buying outright.

Indian Hut is at the end of Suriwong road, parallel to Silom.

Not exactly at the end, but when it comes to the intersection with Charoen Krung. If for some reason you are not full, there's another branch of Himali Cha Cha just around the corner on Charoen Krung. The original branch, I believe.

I like Indus for free wi fi and outdoor settings. It's kind of modern place with Indian food. Not cheap.

So it's 10 year old hardened ex-Khmer rouge guerilla fighters now?

KR lost power in the 70s, lost all support in the 80s, then split and many joined the mainstream society, like Hun Sen himself. I seriously doubt there was any significant influx of fresh fighters since then.

Only a couple of thousand were left at the point when they finally surrendered, and that was ten years ago.

Ever since their leaders have been dying of old age.

Thais have nothing to be scared of no matter how much you try to blow up the alleged heroism of Cambodian army. They haven't seen any fighting and never had any real training, and are pushed by their politicians to take control of disputed territories while Thais simply want to preserve the status quo. No wonder there are reports that the soldiers often share meals and wiskey together.

Really, do you want me to offer you a full report?

I have my opinion, facts and experience to back it up.

So far I see irrelevant opinion - comments on buying instead of leasing, one Internet search passing as a fact, and experience of talking about something without even trying to get acquainted with the subject.

Someone asked for proof of cost of buses, mentioned Chinese ones, so yeah, a quick search yields results that are significantly lower priced that what has been proposed with the Thai deal.

There's no Thai deal to buy buses. You are comparing apples and oranges.

I think a locally built tour coach costs around 6-7 mil, btw. Just as a point of reference.

If I can shoot holes into the 69 billion deal in a coupe of minutes, imagine what can be done by a team in a few weeks...

There were several teams working out details of this project for years. You feel proud you can shoot holes in some imaginary bus purchase in two minutes. I can only imagine how much you can come with in a few weeks.

If some of it is relevant to bus leasing deal, please post it in this thread.

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As Hammered said, all this fighting harms the political system as a whole. I, personally, think it's hopeless and they seriously need to overhaul completely.

I also think Bangkok needs buses. Now.

These buses are meant to replace the aging fleet.

What Bangkok needs is more roads.

They are leaders are not exactly spring chicken now, what do you think the average age of an ex Khmer Rouge fighter is?

Apnea? Why would you think that?

I don't have night sweats per se, it's just the neck area.

I think it might have something to do with clothes you are wearing in bed. I found that the lower the neck line, the less sweat there is. Wifebeaters are the best.

For me it's true not only during the night - loosening the necktie works wonders during the day, too. It's like whole body heat escapes through that neck opening.

With a tight neck t-shirts I used to wake up with a wet collar while the rest was perfeclty dry, so I switched to another brand with a really big neck and it's ok now.

I would also like to hear other suggestions.

Senators have been digging it for a year and still haven't come up with any substantial proof of corruption. Either the deal is clean or they just want a cut so won't expose it.

There are plenty of people who'd love to paint Democrats corrupt, but Suthep should drill in people's minds over and over - either tell the public what is wrong or just shut up.

So far it's a lot of noise and half baked conspiracies over nothing.

I'd like to see what Pridiyathorn has to say on the matter. He wants to scrap the deal, afaik, but the reasons and details are not published yet. Even if he has something, he just made a lot of fuss over rice pledging scheme and put Democrats in a really tight place as they are going to be sued for billions if they don't follow through despite his very sound objections to the policy, and that's not even counting political problems of stepping on Bhum Jai's toes.

But the reality politicians are not lecturing the military on Tak Bai or its other crimes in the South

And don't expect them to. I don't know of any particular group in Thailand that has strong enough moral ground to straighten the military.

There are lots of people who love to critisise them but they haven't achieved anything important to make themselves count.

Abhisit is clean enough to raise the issue, but then he needed army help to build his coalition. He can start talking only when he can stand on his own and feels that he repaid his debt to the generals.

If there was any positive reaction it was mainly because the political log jam was broken

That's good enough to support my point that unless politicians learn how to untie their own shoes they shouldn't lecture the generals.

I think they introduced 2WD Prerunner auto last year.

The proposed deal stinks, mainly because of the obscene price quotes.

What sort of fuel do the buses use?

Renting bus for 4,800 a day doesn't sound like a bad deal.

They run on NGV, the price of installing extra filling stations is included in the total cost already, as are the daily operating costs.

The deal is so big that the need to steal only a couple of percentage points, I would guess.

I'm talking about last two coups.

When Prem retired and politicians took over, they discredited themselves in just a couple of years. When Suchinda overthrowed Chatichai "buffet" govt in 1991 no one shed a tear (the protests started only when Suchinda tried to cling to power).

2006 coup has been discussed to death. Thaksin and TRT screwed up the country so badly that the public generally welcomed the coup.

Junta installed Surayud and he was the first ever Thai leader to sincerely apologise for Tak Bai.

When democratic government returned after 2007 elections the PM went on TV saying the religious zealots were themselves to blame, they died because they were observing Ramadan.

My point is that politicians are in no position to lecture the military on anything, let alone on Tak Bai.

Of course it was not an open vote in parliament but don't think for one minute this action was not agreed on by a majority of MPs behind closed doors

4 suspects shot dead on day 1 of drug war

.....

Opposition Leader and Democrat Party leader Chuan Leekpai warned yesterday that the government should not violate basic human rights in its war against illegal drugs.

Chuan said the government had indicated several times that officers battling traffickers would "shoot to kill".

This would tarnish Thailand's image in regard to human rights and the international community might boycott Thai products to protest against human-rights violations, he said.

http://www.nationmultimedia.com/search/read.php?newsid=74589

hardened guerilla fighters like those ex-Khmer Rouge

You realise they are all senior citizens now, don't you?

Oh, and don't confuse retail cars with wholesale purchases of buses.

Yet you yourself confuse buying MB buses with renting Chinese ones.

Senators who oppose this deal want to trim the cost on petty things like electronic ticketing and cctv cameras and rigging TOR to favour certain Chinese suppliers.

But what do they know! One alibaba search can give them some real ammunition. Thank god there's internet and all kinds of expert advice on it.

They are not buying the buses, they are leasing them.

BMTA union proposed lease-purchase but I think they were a bit late, buy about a year.

On the other hand, if it is a success, who do you think will take the credit?

I am sure not Thaksin, but another person.

What are you talking about?

He was already given the whole credit for eradicating drugs.

It's when it's time to pass the blame that he is not around.

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I don't know who came up with the idea of death squads, I belive it wasn't Thaksin himself, but without his accepting the idea and building the whole war strategy around it, nothing would have happened.

It would be nice to bring those shady military types into the light, but who's going to judge them? Surely not politicians who gave the ordres, and not the "people" who cheered on, ether.

No one has enough "baramee".

Thaksin won't be prosecuted for the same reason.

OK. some numbers.

In the beginning the project value was over a 111 billion baht, 6,000 bases with 5,100 baht per day rental fee. It was critisied and revised several times. Now the value is 69 bil baht for 4,000 buses. 4,780 baht per day.

Samak's govt sent the project to Nesdb to study, earlier this year BMTA held six public hearings with interested parties, and senators issued a six point critique of the plan that included local manufacturing demand that has been satisfied, at least in part.

I don't know if they can trim the project any further, maybe they should just get on with it.

I don't think that debate about cctv cameras, electronic ticketing or handycapped access is that important.

Why invite Mercedes Benz if you want to build buses.

That is taking it back to square minus one. Making suggestions to improve Bangkok bus system from a plastic chair at Khao sarn sidewalk cafe.

There are terms of reference for this contract already, any company can bid, and it's leasing.

It might be imperfect, but at some point you just have to sacrifice the quest for perfection in favour of practicality.

Over the 10 year life-span, just the maintenance contract alone for EACH of the proposed 4000 buses works out to just over 8.2 million baht PER bus.

Is it maintanace only or with lease included?

Since our board experts refuse to provide any info, I'm off to digging Nation's archives.

In one company I worked in it seemed every manager's secretary was sleeping with her boss (except me, of course).

Maybe your boss doesn't find you attractive...

Don't despair.