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I simply would prefer it if the army and the government would butt out of the media and the government take the view that more and freer media is better for the country than less and more control.

So you want to say that it's bad for the government to control the media but it's ok for any other megalomaniacs with agenda, assuming I understood your earlier sentence correctly?

I don't know if there isn't a need for more ASTV or DSTV like stations, but there is a place for them all and the more the merrier

So the answer to government propaganda is not to stop it but to create even more, wide spectrum of propaganda outlets?

I don't think I follow you.

You're selectively quoting me

I was addressing the common argument - "this would never happen to MY kids", not your particular situation.

Thaksin never said that kids uninvolved in the trade should be liquidated,

Thaksin never said any death squads existed either. Yet he set them up and gave the list of targets, and there must have been some sort of chain of command to pass "go" orders.

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In some cases there could have been police with the grudge settling scores, but generally it's not the police who did the killings and I bet they didn't have a vote on when it's time to call the killers.

In their defence the police could say - we had to have a number of persons killed, if we didn't we'd be punished for dereliction of duty. Thaksin's warth at "underperforming" provinces was reported in the media.

Bush never said it, Cheney said it, not one person in the administration made that connection

End of sense?

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Thai at heart,

In the run up to 2000 elections Thaksin bought ITV and fired a couple of dozen jounralists who disagreed with new editorial bend.

I suspect you thought of it as media intervention.

In 2008 Thaksin sets up a new TV station and you call it freedom of media.

Now go and try to say that red shirts and their leaders were fully responsible for Songkran mayhem on Dtv - you will be pulled off the air before you finish one sentence.

Media freedom my ass.

You confuse it with freedom to set up Pravda like propaganda outlets.

So we are to simply give up on freedom as speech as a concept on the basis that no one is interested or that "they" aren't capable of understanding?

"They" was read shirts.

In their case they completely surrendered their braincells to propaganda (and Dtv is NOT a news channel, no matter what they call themselves).

I'm not singling out reds, I'm just making an example. 30 years ago thousands of people were comandeered to Sanam Luang to lynch some students. Six years ago people believed killing people in the name of drug war was ok, while "englightened" US was absolutely convinced that Saddam was behind 9/11 and had weapons of mass destruction.

The power of media to brainwash people into believing practically any nonsense is undeniable, it's behind ANY bloody conflict.

I can't even consider seriously "Let them do whatever they want, it's all "freedom of speech" argument. It's deeply irresponsible.

You passed a truck when it was stuck behind slow traffic?!?

Is it supposed to be a joke?

Wanna buy a Rolex? I can get you one for a very good price.

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There's a word for it - badgeneering. Ford is not as bad as Chevrolet though.

Product sharing is common-place these days, but it doesn't make it a ripoff.

Call it what you want, it certainly doesn't make it a Ford truck as it is known in the US.

So they are not delusional? Just misguided?

If enough people come out to attack the PM, you don't want to call them delusional, do you?

If two weeks later they all believe the PM wasn't in the car they are what - "undeluded"? How about their firm believe in hundreds killed and hidden by the army? It's like UFO cult now. And they are bloody dangerous.

It would only take one channel set up with something akin to editorial independence than those around today and it would become trusted and respected in a minute.

Oh you are so naive.

As soon as your channel exposes someone's lies, that someone would set up another TV station preaching exactly opposite of anything your "trusted" media report. If they got better soaps and more people tune in, pretty they'll have a lot wider following that your "trusted" media would ever have.

Someone recently quoted Hitler - if you make your lie big and simple and repeat it often enough, people will take it as truth. And that guy knew a thing or two about manipulating public opinion.

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Or just look at Thai PBS - they are as independent as they come, with Jon Ungpakorn on the board, they even reportedly played republican songs on the royal background once, stil no one is watching.

there is a place for them all and the more the merrier

Why do you think so? The more the merrier?

Are you so confident that people would withstand the barrage of lies and propaganda and see through it all on each and every issue?

I think brainwashed red shirts is a perfect example of freedom gone terribly wrong. Do you seriously want more mobs, each with its own TV station?

Or do you mean - let them believe in what they want, it's not an issue, the elections will determine who is right and who is wrong.

Do you advocate freedom of propaganda?

The publication of stories like this is one of the simplest ways to increase transparency and accountability

I'm not really following that one, but I've read that the information would have become a public domain in a couple of months anyway, and that the way Telegraph obtained it now was not exactly kosher.

I think people go too far when they call it "investigative journalism", like that BP pest Burin did the other day.

There are some serious questions put before Thai media now. Nation had a couple of interesting opinions on the matter, referring to a recent seminar where Rosana Toracul talked about "toxic" media that needs to be controlled. It's in some other thread here, though.

I'm not sure that we need more propaganda sources like ASTV/Dstation, actually I'm sure we don't. It would be just a deafening "who's got the loudest mouthpiece" competition.

Every now and then there comes a team that outclasses Man U - Real Madrid before Beckham defection, AC Milan a few years later, now Barcelona.

Problem is they can't sustain that level for long and Man U has never had a really bad year, even when rebuilding the entire team.

When I lived in India, ages ago, the restaurants were generally crap, real crap, but they were very big on catering.

People didn't book best hotels for weddings or went to best restaurants for birthdays, they just tried to get the best catering company possible.

I've been to quite a few functions and never had the same curry twice, or gulabjamuns out of a tin can.

When I went to Indian restaurants in Bangkok I was surprised by both food and service, but disappointed that they all had the same menu, but I already mentioned that here.

Now I'd like to hear any particular restaurant specialty. I mentioned koftas, spinach sauce, at Himali Cha Cha, for example. Dosa King makes South Indian food, not many Sukhumwit restaurants do. Sri Ganesh used to be Indian fast food joint, I don't think the concept has changed, just menu got shorter.

Rang Mahal is a well known name, don't remember any special food there. Very forgettable in my opinion.

There's a "hip" place in soi26, same food but free wifi and cocktail bar, outdoor sitting area, and I think they do dancing late at night.

Most of the places recommended here have only "good" or "best" labels. They are probably ok, but if it's your average townhouse shop with "navaratna curry", I'd probably pass. They are dime a dozen on Sukhumwit.

I am not saying your words, not mine.

Confusing.

Still, under official policy low level drug dealers were made to sign some papers and let go. Official policy was decriminalisation and forgiveness.

I don't think it would have been effective if there was no killings, though. So somebody had to be murdered to make a point for others. That's just terrorism.

Ok, not terrorism, but it's like hostage takers killing people to show that they mean business.

I think I read that HTC plans to release seven Android phones here.

Kbuntu is the same system, just a different desktop, kde instead of gnome. You can try using KDE - it's in your Synaptic manager, you switch between desktops simply by logging off.

I've heard that KDE4.0 is buggy and Kbuntu still uses 3.5. I have OpenSuse with KDE4 and have no complaints about it (KDE, not linux or Opensuse herself).

The only "problem" so far is that I can't set custom font color/background on my toolbar, it's controlled only by the theme.

Looks like the cars that reached Stingray are all old, crude vacuum suction systems.

These days most people opt for injector heads, precisely for reasons outlined in Stingray's post.

The thing about fuel pump is interesting. I have never thought about it, but it makes a lot of sense. It costs nothing to drive with half a tank.

Locally sold Ford is just a Mazda ripoff and it one of the slowest selling brands, behind Nissan, Mitsu and Chevrolet.

She said the methods only violated rights to expression of opinion.

Apparently openly obusive and derogatory posts do not exist. It's all just innocent "expression of opinion".

None of us would let it get to the point that our kids were dealing.

It would never happen to me and my kids. Classic defence.

What if they go off to college and get shot there?

In some cases they could be just framed - beaten up, hanged, then pills planted on their bodies.

Again, even Thaksin would not dare say that a few innocent lives must be sacrificed, he threatened only actual dealers.

You are right about the need for the development of a democratic ethos and civil society. That however, can take a long long time and cant just be parachuted in. Role of government, parliament, opposition plus all those checks and balances are all cruical as is public accountability between elections.

Until the system is properly set up it's wide open to abuse, and I don't mean just corruption.

I'm talking about some bloke from Buriram promising his voters heaven on earth, while his real ambition is to be a minister. In the end the voters don't their representation and the country get a shitty government.

Also OMOV means representation, but very few people elect their representatives, they elect best benefits for themselves, and those are very different things that need to be reconciled. Splitting local/national votes was a step in the right direction but it's not nearly enough as in the end they are all dumped together anyway, and MPs who promised local development get to dictate national level policies.

And then there's "quota" system...

The fact that democracy took centuries to evolve in the West is rather beside the point.That's like saying Thailand should develop its own aircraft manafacturing industry rather than buying from Boeing or Airbus.

So you propose Thailand should import its govenment?

Since it's not possible, they have to set up local manufacturing, like they do with cars.

And if auto industry is used as an example - some models are developed specifically for Thailand, others are heavily modified, some don't have western equivalents at all, and very few are direct imports.

Japan and South Korea are good examples

I don't think Japan is a good democratic example. It's more like Singapore, just softer on opposition. And Korea (and also Taiwan) have lived with current democracy not much longer than Thailand - with all their dictatorial regimes.

I don't particularly care for OMOV system and putting blind trust in it. Forget US Senate, even direct presidential votes are not equal in the US, thanks to Electoral College.

How about deciding what we need parliament for in the first place? I don't think many people in this country understand roles of executive and legislative branches. Politicians certainly don't, they all want to govern.

I bet people on the streets will have hard time telling what the parliament is there for, what's its use, apart from picking the government.

And if government positions are so important for both people and politicians, maybe that should be sorted first. What should be the process for selecting Ministers? I believe everyone realises that simply being the most popular bloke in Buriram doesn't make one qualified to run country's finances. It's a sure road to disaster.

How to reconcile popular politics with professionalism? The both need to be present and work seamlessly together.

Chavalit?????

He has to show up at a Thai embassy for that, they'll give him travelling documents.

Maybe they got all this Interpol thing and diplomatic missions to Hong Kong and UAE to give him his papers, who knows.

Well I sincerely hope they decide what "new politics" is in actuality.

Errrm, it's a proposal for the society to improve politics. I bet you have heard that explanation before but still not satisfied.

If you want clear cut, easily explained set of rules you can accept with all of your Thai heart, maybe you should try China or North Korea. PAD hopes that NP will be shaped by people, not assigned by Sondhi, as some kind of homework.

I am all for new ideas, but nowhere in the rhetoric did I see anything that represented anything actually new. Rehashing systems from parts of the world such as Hong Kong as was mentioned before is no more relevant than saying that pure democracy won't work in Asia because the culture is "different".

There's not a single country in Asia where western style democracy works. That's a fact.

I guess PAD have enough intellegence to realise that no matter how many times you try to poop, bananas won't come out of your ass.

Something needs to be changed.

A democratic system needs to be clean and simple before it can be effective. One man one vote of equal value is a basic prerequisite.

That is faulty reasoning. It just doesn't follow. All democratic countries I can think of lived for hundreds of years without unversal suffrage. One way to look at it is that every "one man" had to work hard to deserve that equal value. In the US only white male landholders were qualified initially, for example. And let's not mention Greece.

I don't want to debate history of democratic development, just point out that "one man one vote of equal value" might NOT be a basic prerequisite at all and it doesn't make much sense historically, and it's been proven wrong to assume that democracy here would develop in exactly the same way as in the west, so we don't need exactly same basic prerequisites.