Plus

Koo, there are millions of people who have exactly opposite reactions to all three choices. You do realise they exist?

Did they go to the red meetings to do the polls?

Red meetings are hard to come by these days, so probably not.

As you ignore academic studies..

What academic studies? This is the first time you cited any kind of "studies". Are you getting confused by your multiple user ids? I remember this line was given to me one time too many by a poster named Colpyat.

But ok, let's look at your study:

"it is wrong to single out policies or money as a source of TRT's success because the party relied on both strategies to win elections"

It's from Somchai's abstract.

Do I need to read further? He seems to clearly state that vote buying was used and contributed to TRT victories.

How's vote buying strengthen the "importance of popular vote"? Should it be adopted worldwide by all emerging democracies as legitimate?

I don't care what polls may show, what counts is what elections show.

And the elections shown that 64% didn't vote for PPP, representatives of these 64% formed a coalition, this coalition is clearly supported by the majority of the population.

How else are we supposed to read it?

The thread title doesn't match.

Stunned means there is an element of surprised, Rosana apparently knows what she is talking about, no surprise there.

Role of the media came under big scrutiny here lately.

I know the typical line - give people access to information, they can decide for themselves, you should read many sources and compare different versions. It looks fine, but there's a limit.

What if we have a hundred different channels telling us completly different versions of the same story? Hundred different versions of five daily stories? Seven days a week?

It's physically impossible to process so much information. Most people get their news from one source only, it's a fact of life. Then they go and bash either red or yellow heads in, depending on where they get their fix, so it has become a problem.

The media need to rethink their role - should they be a medium and report the reality as they see it, or should they be just transparent channels of communication between those who want to say something and the public?

Perfect example - general public is in no position to decide whether Abhisit was in a car or not, they weren't there. Now there are two opposite versions, one is a lie. Should the media spread this lie for the sake of "balanced reporting"?

Isn't it a media duty to separate lies from fiction and present the truth?

That last line was an interesting slip of tongue, I let it stand.

This UN Paper gives a pretty good picture.

Thailand Human Development Report 2007

I tried to download the report, it's been removed.

I posted a working link, it's on the global UN site

Download

>>>

Apparently there are still enough Thais to take this sufficiency principle seriously, despite raging capitalism and decline of Buddhism.

ALL the Countries in the world are trying to escape the financial crisis.How?Starting to consume anew,more as before,the PIL must go up every year,people must buy,use,throw away,more and more.

I guess there are billions of people who realise that this simply will not work. There's no such thing as eternal growth.

some democratic aspects were strengthened, such as the importance of a popular vote

I don't see how serial vote buying and massive electoral fraud strengthen importance of a popular vote. Importance of getting popular vote by any means necessary, maybe, but what has it got to do with democracy?

a government that may have a parliamentary mandate that came to pass under more than murky circumstances, and no popular mandate whatsoever

All opinion polls show plenty of support for Abhisit, it's only the reds who don't seem to notice that they are in minority now.

i have never heard eat their food nor does anyone think they are superior culture

In my experience they always insist on you eating their somtam, drinking their lao kao and doing their dance if you attend any of their parties. Maybe it's just my bad luck and all the farangs living there never been goaded in trying something awful just to get on their good side. I know they mean well, it's just that one "no, thank you" is enough to get, say Bangkokians, off your back but Isanese are always out to prove something, like their food is spicy, for the umpteenth time.

I'm ok with spicy food, I just can't stand the same routine over and over again, but they never get tired. Somehow I just never quite relax at those kind of parties, and I know a lot of Thais here who feel just the same.

Chalerm said he did, Hun Sen said he didn't. The difference is Chalerm has no credibility and doesn't care, and Hun Sen is a Prime Minister.

That would be an interesting match.

Nature or nurture.

Are they bad because they come from Isaan or are they bad because working in a bar changes their moral compass? Do you believe that primal instinct drives Isaan girls to bars in Bangkok and Pattaya like lemmings?

The issue isn't that they are from Isaan, it is that Isaan is probably the poorest area of Thailand with probably the least amount of opportunities. Of course a percentage of women worldwide will always work in this profession, but I would presume that local employment opportunities, financial pressure and perceived easy access to greater earnings are the starting point for ALL women choosing this profession.

They are not the only ones suffering from poverty, that couldn't be an excuse.

I guess it's an animal that feeds on itself. Poverty drives them to prostitution, success makes it morally acceptable for the rest of their society, that drives more of them into prostituion, until finally it becomes a norm and most of their women don't want to follow "normal" path anymore.

Then they blame everybody else, from weather to racist Thais.

What I personally don't like is being told to accept Isan as some superior culture, that they are the only "true" Thais and we should learn their ways, eat their food and dance their dances as if it's the best thing since slice bread.

Here's a "research" that shows they can't stand this culture anymore themselves and would trade out at the very first chance.

You have nothing to support your view other than your opinion, and no study.

I don't need a study to show that a government that wants to borrow more than legally allowed is not liberal conservative. Now they want to spend 200 bil baht, three times Thaksin's village fund, on "fighting unemployment". I don't need a study to say that this is going into socialist direction.

And since when Thai politics has become a hard science? Since when do we have iron cast academic answers to political questions anywhere, let alone Thailand?

The gist of Chang Noi's article (in 2002) was that Democrats have undergone through numerous ideological changes in their history. Three time in the previous five years alone.

I don't know if their most recent trend is sustainable and if they genuinenly want a welfare state for the poor in the long run, but it IS there now.

I guess they haven't reached a point where they have to give a definite answer to "who is going to pay for all this" yet.

Can we say something about Isan women morals here? Would it be generalising, or threefifths is not enough?

I can't be bothered checking Plus, and it doesn't matter anyway - you make things up as you go along as has been observed by other posters here. You don't have a point of view that is consistent with facts that are reported from yellow and red alike. The last sensible conversation that I had with you ended up with you denying that the CDR had any agenda against foreign rights, in spite of evidence to the contrary that was all too obvious at the time to the expat and business community living in Thailand, in the months following the coup. There is no point talking to you if you keep inventing things to make whatever point it is that you are trying to make.

Do you work for the Democrat party, or are you just a troll having a laugh?

I don't know, it's either trolling or deja-vu. Take you pick.

I think I need to bookmark some posts here, there's no point in typing them up again, it has been addressed TWICE already.

'dbrenn' date='2009-05-19 20:20:20' post='2746500'

"You gotta love Plus and his dogma. A while back, he was swearing blind that the CDR did not have a nationalistic agenda, and that they were not speaking out against foreign ownership and other foreign expat and business rights at the time of the coup."

'Plus' date='2009-05-19 21:50:33' post='2746693'

"Why don't you address the issue in the original thread instead of dragging it here.

You didn't supply any evidence there, you are not supplying any evidence here either.

Foregn Business Act was drafted by Commerce Ministry and Thai Chambers of Commerce. National Assembly wanted a stricter version and junta appointed government withdrew it altogether rather than risk NLA pushing its own amendments through.

Generals had nothing to do with it.

Are you going to back up your allegations or jump off to another thread?"

That was just a three days ago, could be deja-vu, or is it too early.

Can it happen twice? This the original occurence:

'dbrenn' post='2737816' date='2009-05-16 07:55:14'

"I haven't had this kind of 'yes they were, no they weren't, so there' argument since I was a child. The CDR were quite public about their views on how foreigners rights should be curtailed, to the utmost alarm of the expat and business community at the time.

For you to deny that ever happened is just plain silly."

And that's the original reply:

'Plus' date='2009-05-18 14:25:43' post='2743172'

"Draft of the Foregin Business Act was the work of the Thai Chamber of Commerce and Commerce Ministry and it went to the National Legislative Assemby which reopened the debate, eventually the govt withdrew the bill after NLA insisted on a stricter version.

It had nothing to do with the junta/CNS whatsoever.

If you insist that it was Sonthi Boonyarataglin and his fellow generals proposal it's your job to provide proof, not mine."

There you go again banging on about Thaksin. You seem to have an obsession with the man

Simple count of occurences of "Thaksin" in that post, including all the quotes, gives dbrenn - 4, rixalex replies - 5.

Somehow that wikipedia hack couldn't find any academic studies to support his edit to "center-right" either and resorted to posting a fraudulent source instead.

Given conspiracy crap that now passes as academic studies in certain circles I wouldn't put much trust in it anyway.

I am getting near the point in which I have had enough of the crap picture you get, what is up with Star Moves and AXN ????

On a plasma TV changing picture mode from standard to movies made a HUGE difference for me. I don't remember it being so effective on LCD, but worth a try. Also try getting better cables.

in the Thailand context, is that excess greed has been very much the distinguishing characteristic of the rich urban business class

Not quite so, many have learned their lessons after 1997, and many from the "old money" circles live actually quite frugal lives, certainly without flaunting their money.

Modesty still goes a long way in Thai society and after all these years we haven't seen any personal scandal involving proponents of sufficiency economy.

it seems to be more of a loose thesis on the pitfalls of greed and not an economic theory.

If you get your info from my contributions in this thread, yes.

And I don't think it would ever qualify for a "real" economic theory anyway.

And many small scale land holders have to pay higher tax as well.

The increase is from 0.5% to 1.5%, I believe. For those using a small plot of land it's nothing, it would matter only for those holding vast tracks of land who will hopefully be forced to lease, and, of course, for landless farmers who will get some land to work on.

social democracy is a political ideology from the left

I said earlier, it doesn't matter where it comes from, it matters what it IS, now.

So, Dems increase taxes, increase goverment budget, want to lift a ceiling on how much debt the government can take, and all that makes them liberal conservatives???

Yeah, I know you can't admit their social democratic agenda as a matter of principle, not reality, so we can just live it at that.

Incidentally, Ministry of Commerce that is responsible for price interventions in agricultural products, is not controlled by Democrats. Just last week Democrats wrestled control of sale of corn stock due to irregularities. Maybe one day they'll get to tapioca as well. Overall just another false accusation against Dems. Got any more?

Also what makes Chaturon a social democrat darling? His years with communist party? Nothing good ever came out of Asian communism - they gave us Laos, Vietnam, Khmer Rouge, and, of course China, not exactly social democratic countries, are they? All his political career consisted of prostituting himself for Chavalit and then Thaksin, then his party was handed over to Samak. Some leftist history there, huh? In 2007 elections he sent his siblings as his proxies, just like any typical Thai politician.

There's no more social democracy in him than in Chinese politburo pamphlet.

Thats how I see the thai democrat party. The "right" career move for your above average gentlemen with ambition for power.

What are talking about? What career move?

Democrats bled those type of characters left and right during Thaksin's years. They were slated to be in eternal opposition, locked out of govt contracts. What kind of career prospect is that?

So much for your "analysis".

And then it goes off into "elite" conspiracy and Democrats being puppets of invisible hands.

Ehh, yes, what about the Rohingya case, the internationally condemned setting up of the new Human Rights commissioners, the attacks against the NGO down South, etc? What about the increased and internationally condemned infractions against freedom of the media?

Dems are not responsible for Rohingya, it was your "social democratic" PPP that signed off a policy of towing people out to sea. Abhisit put an end to this practice, see relevant thread.

Democrats had nothing to do with selection fo HR commissioners, either it was Senate's job, not governement's.

Now I understand why you call them center-right conservatives - you hold them responsible for all kind of "crimes" they didn't commit.

Tax laws may be in the making, but i do not see any form of progressive taxing, only taxing that the poor are mostly burdened with, such as land holding tax, fuel, alcohol and tobacco taxes raised.

Land holding tax is burdening the poor? <deleted>? The purpose of the tax is to force the rich landholders to lease or sell their otherwise idle land.

And how's increasing alcohol and tobacco taxes a sign of economic liberalism that goes against any social democratic platform?

It's just bizarre.

Democrat coalition = UK Independence Party

Actually it was Journalist's question that sparked the debate, and now he comes up with this. I don't know what these two parties have in common. There's no question of Thailand's independence of Asean, is there? In fact one of the top Democrats, Surin Pitsuwan, is the current Asean sec-general and his main job is making common Asean charter a reality.

Another top Democrat was the head of WTO, selected to represent developing countries, he had to share his term with New Zealander who was representing interests of developed world. That's another example how Democrats value "fair trade" over "free trade", in line with general social democratic agenda.

Suffiency does not restricts one's personal growth in any way, be it education or motivation, it only protects one from excess greed, which usually ends in living beyond the means and being forced to spend all one's income on interest payments.

Traditionally Thai/Chinese want to pay for everything in cash upfront, no credit, not debts. Debts are considered evil.

Sufficiency economy is far more accomodating, it is not against borrowing per se, just knowing your limits.

My UBC setup is not exactly kosher but we use original card we keep paying for, not pirate or hacked. I don't think it's worth 2,000 baht but I can't imagine NOT having it at all or downgrading to some silver package or free to satellite. None of the cables/satellites I've seen in hotels in Thailand comes even close to UBC either, so I'm very sceptical about "alternatives".

If in Bangkok, there's a large auto market in Bangna that has all kinds of used engines. It's called Chiang Kong, search this forum, I even posted a map once.

If you are new to searching, go to Advanced Searh, enter "+Chiang +Kong" without quotation marks in the search box, select Thailand Motor forum, and select "Show results as posts", by default it's "show topics" and some topics can be thirty pages long.

If you want to find the map I posted, enter my user name in "search posts by user" field.

I insist that Democrat platform perfectly reflects modern social democracy

From Wikpedia

In general, contemporary social democrats support:

A mixed economy consisting of both private enterprise and publicly owned or subsidized programs of education, health care, child care and related social services for all citizens.

- Check on all points.

An extensive system of social security (although usually not to the extent advocated by socialists), with the stated goal of counteracting the effects of poverty and insuring the citizens against loss of income following illness, unemployment or retirement.

- Check, protecting the poors has become big item on their agenda in the past couple of years, thanks to TRT

Government bodies that regulate private enterprise in the interests of workers and consumers by ensuring labor rights (i.e. supporting worker access to trade unions), consumer protections, and fair market competition.

- Check, in the wake of 1997 Democrats imposed laws protecting workers, even farang teachers have been known to sue their bosses and win.

Environmentalism and environmental protection laws; for example, funding for alternative energy resources and laws designed to combat global warming.

- Abhisit in a hydrogen powered car?

A value-added/progressive taxation system to fund government expenditures.

- Tax laws are in the works already

A secular and a socially progressive policy, although this varies markedly in degree.

Immigration and multiculturalism.

- Check, one thing they can guarantee is no xenophobia and giant flag waving

Fair trade over free trade.

- Check, they always questioned Thaksin free trade deals.

A foreign policy supporting the promotion of democracy, the protection of human rights and where possible, effective multilateralism.

- Check, on all points.

Advocacy of social justice, human rights, social rights, civil rights and civil liberties.

- Check

>>>

If you refered to wikipedia to show that also other people are rather confused about political definition, then you have managed this task rather well. At least somebody did correct the mistake there, unlike with you.

That idiot who put "center right" there gave a wrong citation for his "fact", and even if one could somehow find support for his label, it comes from an opinion column written under pseudonym!

I wouldn't call this tampering a "correction".

Having a strong royalist position makes anyone, in any country, conservative.

In Thailand it doesn't. You apply European history of progress here, or rather only one narrow aspect of it.

You problem is that you basically throw around with terms you have not much idea about their definitions. Nothing of what you describe makes the democrats in any way social democratic. Just read up on the history of social democracy.

You say they are not social democratic because they don't have proper background. I say it doesn't matter, their platform is social democratic now, even if they came to this point in a different way and starting from a different place.

And judging by the way their policies developed in the last couple of years, they are becoming more and more socialist.

We are not in Europe, for Thailand they are as social democratic as it gets. You can read defining features of the modern social democratic platform, and Thai Democrats can put a check under each one of them.

That's the reality NOW, that's their party platform under present leadership, and it has been consistent for a couple of decades.

To fruther demonstrate your obsession with roots - you implied that TRT, a political vehicle for the big business to take over the state power, are true social democrats, because that fraud Chaturon joined them after they won the elections.

I don't think even TRT's own propaganda machine would have gone so far as to claim social democrat label.

An international court awarded Preah Vihear temple to Cambodia in 1962, but a 4.6-square km (1.9-square mile) parcel of land surrounding it remains the subject of territorial claims by the two neighbouring countries.

Thailand recongises the existence of overlapping claims, Cambodia treat this land as its own already, and that's the source of the tensions.

There are several local cheeses at Foodland. They call them "local mozarella", "local parmesan" and "local mild cheddar".

I find them perfectly adequate.

In fact local cheddar is the best melting cheese on toast, I've tried probably a dozen of other cheddars for that purpose, nothing comes close.

"Imperial" makes its own cheese here, too, and there's "Caroline" brand of cheddars and mozarella but I, personally, don't like them at all.

There's very little demand for cheese and the market is small. Foreigners alone can't sustain the whole industry and Thais lack experience and taste to demand variety. I've had local pizzas with those terrible processed cheddars slices passing as cheese.