Arkady

14 hours ago, Alex19 said:

Hello everyone,

 

I finally recently got the PR, my next step is to apply for citizenship.

 

Have anyone tried to apply under PR holding it for less than 5 years ?

 

Briefly I think could reach the 50 points easily :
30 Years old, Master degree, ~100K/month, more than 3 years in the same company, can easily sing both anthems.
I have 10K charity donation with certificate from 3 years ago.

 

Let me know !

Thanks

It has been done in the past because the Act is not specific that 5 years' resience in the Kingdom means residence with PR.  But it is not known to have been permitted since the mid 90s and the current regime is definitely not allowing this interpretation.  A friend recently tried to apply with less than 5 years PR by using connections and eventually hit a brick wall. Things change.  You can always try.

Re retention of WP during the application process. It's often not asked for after the NIA interview but bear in mind that they can ask for all documents when you register for the MoI interview. When I went for mine they did this for others but didn't want to see mine, as they had recently seen them, as described below.  Also any of the delegates on the interview committee can ask to see your documents or any other information. In my case I was asked to bring my current and previous WPs to the MoI before my interview as they wanted to check them because SB had cocked up by not including a copy of the previous one in my file. The head of the nationality section told me, after confirming that all was in order, that she was happy that was the case or she would have had to disqualify me, if my WPs didn't check out.

The other thing can happen on rare occasions is that you can be asked to redo a lot of the application, if there is a discrepancy. In my case, again due to a stupid mistake by SB, I had to to resubmit copies of all documents, salary letter, bank statement etc, two and a half years after my original applcation.  Without a current WP, that would have been the end of the story.  During the Thaksin era all the pending citizenship applications were sent back from the MoI to SB to have everything rechecked and resubmitted, delaying the process by about three years.

So it's worth keeping a valid WP throughout the process, if you can because you never know.

11 hours ago, onthemoon said:

No. They upgraded the Autochannel system before the Corona crisis, and the new software works only with Thai passports. They couldn't tell me when we can use it again, but I haven't travelled since early March, so I didn't follow up since then.

The old one was pretty iffy too. Sometimes closed and often didn't read the my fingerprints in Thai passport.  Cheap devices like mobile phones never had any problem reading them.  There are many reports of corruption regarding the new system. So I fear the worst.

  I apologise for my misleading post.  Of course TM15 is not the ใบสำคัญถิ่นที่อยู่ as it says on the Chumporn Immigration site.  Here are some links from Immigration on TMs 15, 16 and 17 in English. Unfotunately the Thai versions don't provide the same detail.

https://www.immigration.go.th/content/service_62

https://www.immigration.go.th/content/service_63

https://www.immigration.go.th/content/service_64

From this it wouid appear that the TM15 is actually for foreigners who immigrated to the Kingdom before the first Immigration Act of 1927. I expect there was some transitional provision to allow foreigner who were already here to get PR more easily.  Application form TM18.

TM16 seems to be a regular PR application, as we know it. Application form TM18.

TM17 seems to be an application for a replacement book (alien book I presume). Application form TM20.

I no longer have one but I don't think there are any markings in the red books show their codes but they could indeed be TM15, 16 and 17. Whether they look different or not like the blue and white books, I don't  know.  I have never heard of anyone filling up a red book.  I think it might be hard to find someoe who had a red book based on having immigrated to the Kingdom prior to 1927 and still doesn't have citizenship to see what their book looks like.

5 hours ago, GabbaGabbaHey said:

Maybe I'm wrong but I don't think the red book that PR holders get and stamp at the police station is this TM. 15.

From what I read here http://www.chumphonimmigration.go.th/en/fee.php:

 

Residence certificate (TM. 15)
Arrival prior to immigration act: 19,000.- Baht per piece

 

It seems this one is still issued (?). But even if no longer, how could they differentiate between someone who has just the red book and someone who has red book + blue/white book, and I'm not even talking about the airport immigration. It must be another kind of document.

If you flip the Chumphon Immigration page into Thai you get this.

ใบสำคัญถิ่นที่อยู่ (ตม.15)

กรณีเข้ามาอยู่ในราชอาณาจักรก่อน พ.ร.บ.คนเข้าเมืองฯ กำหนด ฉบับละ 19,000 บาท

Alien book (TM15)

In the case the alien arrived in the Kingdom prior to the date specified in the Immigration Act B19,000.

This seems to mean that applications for PR were B19,000 before they were increased to what are they today.  My recollection is that the fee was B50,000 in the 1990s but it must have been less than that earlier.

Of course, Chumphon Immigration has nothing to do with PR applications and have no clue.  They are probably just regurgitating something in an old website or document.

If something is confusing in the English version of a Thai government website, you need to drill down to the Thai version to have any hope of understanding it.  Most Thai government officers at that level have a very basic command of written English but none are going to admit that to their boss, if asked to do an English translation.

Anyway, rest assured that a TM15 is a red alien book ใบสำคัญถิ่นที่อยู่ (ตม.15).  It matters not a fig what date you arrived in Thailand.

20 hours ago, tblbkk said:

Hi guys, just a question out of curiosity here. I assume all of us PRs have either a TM16 (blue) or TM17 (white) certificate of residence.  However I recently saw there is also a TM15 certificate of residence apparently issued to foreigners that entered 'prior to Immigration Act'. Is this referring to the 1979 immigration act? Has anybody ever seen a TM15?

I think it is a pretty safe bet that the TM15 red alien book has been issued since the first Immigration Act in 1927.

On 5/24/2020 at 10:04 AM, kotsak said:

Smoke and mirrors.. Who are they trying to fool by selling a puny stake to a fund that has government written all over it? 

including the stakes owned by the Vajupak Fund, which is taxpayers' money, and the Government Savings Bank, the government owns 68%.

1 hour ago, Alex19 said:

Hi everyone,

Hope you are all doing well and safe at home.

 

Great news, I just got an appointment at CW to receive the PR next month !

 

They ask for a House registration (Tabien ban I guess), and said it should be a house, not condo.
My problem is that :
1) I live in a Condo. (rent)

2) Don't have Tabien Baan ..

Have anyone ever been in this situation ? Luckily I still have a month to find a way..

 

Thank you !

I think that probably means you need to bring along your yellow tabian baan, if you have one. If you don't have one, no problem, as they is no requirement to have one before you get PR. Since you are in a rental condo, you will need to figure out what address to use for your blue tabian baan. Will the landlord allow you to use the condo?  Usually not, as it is significant hassle for a landlord.  If not, you will have to get on a friend or relative's tabian baan.

There seems little point in trialing a vaccine in Thailand.  If the numbers of cases is as low as reported, it would be difficult to know if it protected volunteers from infection or not. I would think a country where the virus is raging would be a better choice.

9 hours ago, Guderian said:

We were warned that numbers would become higher as Thais working abroad returned home, and the same evidently applies to migrant workers coming here. Since the 42 are imported cases, the bottom-line number is actually just 11 new local cases, so still on track.

We don't know how many of the 42 cases were imported, if any, and how many were infected in the IDC.

On 4/21/2020 at 5:48 PM, thedemon said:

 

I recently got hold of a book titled "Double Identity - The Chinese in Modern Thailand" by Richard J. Coughlin, published in 1960.

 

Interestingly the law covering immigration quotas predates the second world war, though it wasn't actually enforced until 1947 when the quota was set at 10,000 for Chinese nationality and 200 each for all other nationalities. The author suggests that this was done to restrict Chinese immigration but at the same time appease them with the fact that the Chinese quota was far higher than all other nationalities. In fact it is likely that no other nationality had ever reached 200 annually anyway.

 

In 1948 Phibun Songkhram cut the Chinese quota to 200, the same as all other nationalities and that was included in the 1950 Immigration Act. In 1952 the quota for stateless people was reduced to 100 but since no further mention is made by the author it can be assumed that the quota remained at 200 until after 1960 (when the book was published).

 

It is amusing to read mention of the "Certificate of Residence" and "Alien Registration Certificate" in the context of the early 1930's meaning that the documentation system for PR's still in use today is approaching 100 years old.

 

Very interesting. There was a lot of hand wringing over the Chinese problem in in the 30s and 40s. During the Great Depression, Thai farmers flocked to the cities after crop prices collapsed due to deflation and their land price also collapsed and was repossessed by Chinese money lenders. There they found there were no jobs for them because Chinese employers favoured recently arrived Chinese employees. That caused the law reserving certain occupations for Thai citizens.

At that time Chinese men were reluctant to take Thai citizenship, even if entitled to it by birth in the Kingdom, because they didn't want to do military service and they couldn't get citizenship, once they had dodged conscription.  They had PR and there were no work permits or restrictions on owning businesses.

On 4/21/2020 at 2:50 PM, Neeranam said:

My interview lasted less than 5 minutes and mostly I talked about my children and doing meditation retreats in the Dalai Lama's town and also at Suan Mokh, the temple of Ajarn Buddadhassa Bikhu. I never had to sing the songs. This was last September.

Singing for your citizenship is still required, if you apply on the basis of PR, rather than a Thai spouse.

I haven't seen any evidence from clinical trials that confirms any of these drugs work. Doctors in the US say that in most cases where off label drugs have been used for compassionate reasons, i.e. the patient is expected not to survive, by definition they are administered too late to provide any benefit. If any of the drugs are to help, they would need to be adminstered very early on to prevent repliation of the virus, rather than after it has replicated in the lungs so much that it has caused irreperable damage. In Thailand, since they are mainly only testing people who are very sick, this must also be the case. This seems to be just going through the motions to appear to be doing something.

On 4/20/2020 at 4:04 PM, anterian said:

I think there is a difference between surviving and propagating, the virus survived but only resumed when conditions improved. 

The virus was placed in kidneys "donated" by African Green monkeys.  The virus continued replicating while subjected to 60 degrees celsius heat for an hour. It was only killed off by 100 degree heat.

5 hours ago, FarangRimPing said:

No, I meant the "Alien Registration Act B.E. 2493 (1950)" - found here on ThaiVisa, in the "Laws, regulations, Police Orders, etc:" sticky.

 

https://drive.google.com/open?id=1oHQw1I81EiLOOoJ5huIyu0NgMaEx-Muy

 

I understood the process of obtaining PR was part of the immigration act, but it seems the Alien Registration Act concerns the 'maintenance' of PR. 

 

Is there any other source which shows the requirements for getting the Alien Registration book maintained?

Apologies.  You are right.  I stand corrected. I don't know of any other source.

1 hour ago, FarangRimPing said:

Requirements to maintain Good Standing (Permanent Residence)

 

I've searched throughout this forum and there doesn't seem to be one particular place which lists everything we need to do on an ongoing basis, for example, renewing the Alien Registration Book every 5 years. Helpful informational items seem scattered throughout the now lengthy ongoing post. Maybe it would be helpful to include the maintenance requirements in a section of the first post?

 

Also, could someone confirm (or correct) my understanding: The Immigration Act applies to everyone, and The Alien Registration Act is the correct guide for Permanent Residents. (So for a PR in maintenance mode, The Alien Registration Act is the best source of info?)

 

Thanks, and sorry if these are stupid questions.

 

 

I believe you meant the Civil Registration Act which is to do with registering people in tabien baans and issuing ID cards. There is no Alien Registration Act.  The Immigration Act is pertinent to the application process for PRs.

Western countries still think of themselves as countries of immigration to a more or lesser extent (the UK having switched to being a lesser extent).  Thailand viewed itself as a country of of Immigration in the past but that came to an end in the early 1950s when they inroduced the quota system for PR which was the only visa available for more than 3 months at the time. Unfortunately I don't see anything changing in that outlook. They now have millions of foreign labourers, whom they have no intention of allowing to settle permanently.

When the Nationality law was amended in 2008 to allow foreign men the right to apply for citizenship without PR first, the same as foreign women married to Thais, the original bill actually made the right identical, i.e. foreign men could apply without working in Thailand, just like foreign wives. The minutes of a meeting of the security and legal department of the Interior Ministry to advise parliament on this bill were posted online.  They concluded that allowing foreign men to apply for citizenship on exactly the same terms as foreign women would constitute a grave security risk without expanding on the rationale for that in the published minutes.  Parliament accepted the recommended and the amendment required foreign men to be working in Thailand just like PR does. I think that reflects the attitude that still prevails today. Of course it is discriminatory towards Thai women. which was the justification for amending the law in 2008 in the first place.

3 hours ago, Vigilante said:

You must be insane to pursue thai PR as long as there are dozens of other places (outside of Asia) that have faster/cheaper (even free) reqs

Marriage alone, in most LatAm countries, will give you citizenship in 3 years or so.

Try that anywhere in Asia (as a male)

Asia doesn't need extra ppl or immigrants of any sort

There are just too many billions to be taken care of, no need to import more.

 

People who continue to come here on a long-term basis (esp US citizens) need a head examination.

..but don't worry...life has a way of rubbing facts in your face eventually

Always heed the warnings/writings on the wall.

Thailand (imo) is finished as a farang destination.

Maybe it never was one.

We created it thru the power of sheer make-believe..(to the contrary wishes of successive govts and facts on the ground)

 

Have a nice day

 

 

Yes, it is a fairly difficult process but, if you are happy living and working here, it makes sense for a lot of people.  Also, after 5 years with PR, you are eligible for citizenship which is a cheaper and easier process.  Those working in Thailand and married to Thais may apply for citizenship without getting PR first since 2008.

So no change to the existing system, much of which is enshrined in the 1979 Immigration Act and would require an act of parliament to change. The Immigration Act specifies that the quota per nationality may not be set at more than 100 per annum, although it can be less at the discretion of the cabinet.  In fact it is only Chinese that ever reach the quota of 100 and that is only because Hong Kong and Taiwan are included in the China quota. The law also implies that applicants have to be working in Thailand, since it says that profession ability needs to be taken into account and specifically bars anyone who is unable to earn a living due to mental or physical disability.  Anyway it has always been interpreted that way and Immigration has always told people who were interested in applying under the humanitarian category on the grounds they were supporting family in Thailand from overseas income, not to bother.

It doesn't sound like that are planning to change the law which wouldn't be a priority for parliament at this time.  It sounds more like they are affirming the present law and I doubt that they would relax the interpretation re working in Thailand because the law implies that is necessary. We have to take into account that the original law was drafted in the context of thousands of Chinese coolies coming to Thailand to work.  After the communist takeover in China they got scared of communist infiltrators coming with the coolies as a 5th column.  So they decided to turn off the spigots and introduce the quota system.  The wording got carried over into the current law.  In 1979 they were no visas for retirees or people married to Thais and they can't possibly have imagined Thailand would become a popular retirement destination for farangs.

3 hours ago, scorecard said:

Hi Arkady, nice points, have you noticed, please, whether the police order has now been issued in the Royal Gazette and which amongst the several summaries / full translation in English is recognized as being the Royal gazette version? Thanks.

There is no difference between the version published in the RG and the one above as far as I can see. There is a translation somewhere in the general TV thread about it today. I think it is provided by Immigration, not a particularly good one but it does follow the original quite faithfully. As Joe pointed out it is in the form of a ministerial decree, knot a police order.  A police order would be enough to amend the other visa conditions but not PR.  Actually it is debatable whether a ministerial decree can amend that section of the Immigration Act, rather than an act of parliament, because it is not specified in the Act that it can be, whereas it does specify that terms and conditions of other types of visa can be revised from time to time through ministerial regulations (in fact they are revised with police orders). However, I think the rationale would be that the ministerial decree was pursuant to his emergency decree which implies special powers to temporarily amend laws through a futher decree and I don't think it would be challenged.

42 minutes ago, rimmae2 said:

I don't have a problem regarding PR being lost (or at least I hope so........), as my re-entry permit is valid until February 2021. All I want to do is return home as soon as possible. Hopefully, as Arkady states in later post PRs will be remembered in future orders.

 

For now, I console myself with the fact that many Thais (including people that I know) are unable to leave the country that I am in.

If Immigration is consulted, they will surely advise the government to include PRs in future orders that allow citizens and WP holders to return because they will be keen to limit the discretion they will now be forced to give to lapsed PR re-entry permits. I still think it is quite amazing that PRs were given consideration in the latest order. Credit where it's due to all involved, specially as they are waiving a clause that is set in concrete in the Immigration Act, whereas all the other measures are simply amending National Police Orders.

There even something in this for permanent residents who are stranded overseas and cannot return to Thailand in time before their one year re-entry permits expire. Normally this results in cancellation of permanent residence without exception.

Section 1. Aliens who have been given permission to stay permanently in the Kingdom under Section 48 of the 1979 Immigration Act and have evidence that they have obtained permits to re-enter the Kingdom within one year according to Section 50 of the Act may extend the period for return to the Kingdom to be longer than one year until after the situation has improved sufficiently to allow aliens to travel to the Kingdom and within the deadline to be specified by the Immigration Bureau. 

Good news for PRs stuck outside the country and unable to return before their one year re-entry permits expire. An Interior Ministry decree on visa extensions in special circumstances due to the COVID pandemic dated 7 April and signed by Prayut and Interior Minister Gen Anuphong (attached) has been issued and Section 1 deals with the extension of re-entry permits.

Section 1. Aliens who have been given permission to stay permanently in the Kingdom under Section 48 of the 1979 Immigration Act and have evidence that they have obtained permits to re-enter the Kingdom within one year according to Section 50 of the Act may extend the period for return to the Kingdom to be longer than one year until after the situation has improved sufficiently to allow aliens to travel to the Kingdom and within the deadline to be specified by the Immigration Bureau. 

The order says that Immigration will set a deadline by which you have to return but it doesn't specify what latitude they will allow for the expiry date of re-entry permits, i.e. would they include people who would have found it difficult or unsafe to travel (probably all those with expiry dates in March), or only those with expiry dates on or after the date they banned entry completely. My guess is that they will not be too rigid. If anyone is in that situation they should probably call Immigration and explain their situation before the interpretation is set in concrete.