placnx

17 hours ago, Morch said:

 

You're looking at it from the wrong angle. The two large blocs are rallied around either Fatah or Hamas. The Islamic Jihad sort of supports the Hamas, but it's not quite as tight an alliance, really. More indicative of a trend. The main thing to notice is the number of undecided (the 'other' label can be included, considering potential changes and shifts within, splinter factions etc.) - so what this poll shows is a three-way split. A whole lot of people not too happy with either main option, but no viable alternatives on offer.

 

Hamas's advantage over the Fatah is (provided it politically survives this war) constancy. The leadership is there, not too old, replacements in the wings. The Fatah, on the other hand is in shambles, with basically everyone waiting for Abbas to croak, and the succession struggle decided. As far as I can tell, none of the would-be-leaders is very popular. And rivalries run pretty deep, so a splintering or some crippling internal dispute are certainly options. In such a scenario, Hamas (with the caveat mentioned) stands a good chance of gaining the upper hand.

 

All this, of course, relates to popular vote. In effect, Hamas's chances of winning could be greater factoring local representative elections.

 

One of the things that could upset this, or make things more complicated is the appearance of a third party/candidate. There's a lot of talk about Marwan Barghouti as such. But in effect, even if he can stand for election and wins, it's hard to see how the Palestinians will effectively manage their affairs with him behind bars. Another name sometimes touted is Dahlan, more in relation to the Gaza Strip. Not exactly popular, but good connections with Hamas, and some local clans.

Getting Marwan Barghouti out of an Israeli prison is just a small detail compared to what else must be done to have a viable Palestinian state. Barghouti has not yet been in prison as long as Mandela was.

8 minutes ago, Mike Lister said:

The capsule endoscopy for the small bowel is a simple affair that produces good results, why would you want an alternative?

Admittedly, in my case the concern goes farther than the gastro-intestinal tract. Maybe not the case for the OP.

20 hours ago, connda said:

Remember the Kuwaiti babies being thrown out of incubators by Iraqi soldiers.  Same, same.

That's so long ago I don't remember that - 1990?

28 minutes ago, Sheryl said:

 

Costs about the same and cannot remove polyps at same time, with result that will often need to proceed to a regular colonoscopy anyhow thus risk end up paying twice as much.

Capsule camera: Is there another way to investigate the small intestine? I am thinking of having a Gallium 68 PET scan for tumors in the abdomen (including intestines). Would not deal with absorption issue for OP, though.

6 hours ago, Freddy42OZ said:

 

Not that specific event but there is enough info in this report to see that Hamas are just backwards animals who haven't evolved since they were herding goats in the desert 2000 years ago.  They are cavemen with automatic weapons.  

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/israel-video-of-hamas-terror-attacks-war-in-gaza/

Once fake news. propaganda, is out there it gets repeated by credible people. Remember the beheaded babies cited by Biden?

14 hours ago, Morch said:

 

In general, you are correct. Reveling at such things is more the Palestinians' thing. Pin in culture, on oppression or whatever - it's still there. As far as Israelis go, I think even when there are such reactions, they are usually less 'celebratory'.

 

There was one infamous instance in which such expressions of hate and vileness were expressed - which resulted in wide condemnations in Israel, and (minor) penalties for actions. As can be expected, these were hardcore, right-wing religious zealots from the illegal Israeli settlements in the West Bank:

 

Israeli settlers at a wedding party cheer burning of Palestinian baby

https://mondoweiss.net/2015/12/israeli-settlers-wedding-palestinian/

 

Israel convicts 7 over wedding where murdered Palestinian baby was mocked

https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/israel-convicts-7-over-wedding-where-murdered-palestinian-baby-was-mocked-2022-04-27/

 

But horrid as this may be, it also highlights that in Israel, this not a widely accepted behavior. Legal and public reactions being very different from the jovial street celebrations and distributing of sweets, customary among Palestinians after 'successful' terrorist attacks (nevermind the scenes in Gaza streets on 7/10).

 

I'm sure that there were other such incidents (if less headline makers) among the same 'crowd'. But maybe the point is that if one can clearly recall a specific one goes toward demonstrating how uncommon, or unacceptable this is.

Thank you for mentioning the settlers. The pogroms which they visit on the indigenous people cause great outrage in Gaza, too, I suppose. These attacks are done with impunity in the presence of IDF.

As for the celebration with sweets, it's like the prisoners celebrating a jailbreak. Had they already seen the horrific videos? I remember reading of a call from a Hamas killer to his parents in Gaza, reported in a recent Israeli government video. When the son said how he was a hero for killing a number of people and asked his dad for approval, dad told him to come home. Parents sounded unhappy with him. 

15 hours ago, deejai33 said:

I do not think it was the trigger for Hamas's attrocities.  

 

On it's own, the map does not justify Hamas's actions.  Ofcourse not.  

 

I posted the map as I first found it on the Ynet news site, refered to by Mr Morch.   I thought it must be 'fake news', not real, but later I found it was not disputed and is actually what the Israeli PM showed the UN.

 

However if the map indicates the israeli governments intention to never have a Palestinian state, or never to have equal rights for Palestinians within a single state, then I can see it would make Palestinians angry.  

 

I'm focussed on learning about the Palestinian-Israel conflict.  And on on positive ways forward.   

 

The israeli PM, Hamas, Palestinian PA leader, USA stance, all seem to be a problem, a hurdle to a viable peace.   

 

I'm trying to appreciate what all sides of the conflict see.  This conflict has gone on all of my life.  

 

 

To really understand why the US has vetoed so many Security Council resolutions, you have to know about this:

Sorry it's a long read, around 500 pages. Most people only know about AIPAC, Anti-defamation League - tip of the iceberg.

Unless a lot of people know about this, how the US Congress is cowed, it will be very difficult for there to be peace in the Middle East.

6 hours ago, Morch said:

 

I think launching them rocket requires electricity as well...? Same goes staying in deep underground facilities.

 

As for the 'nowhere safe' nonsense - if what you claim was true, death toll would be higher.

The "dual use" excuse is really a pretext for ethnic cleansing. Putinesque.

7 hours ago, thaibeachlovers said:

Indeed, with the connivance of the US and the western leaders that kowtowed to Washington, the western media has been successful at ignoring the Palestinian issue, and apparently  the western masses remained blithely ignorant of the true situation. Thankfully to Al Jazeera, not entirely ignored.

 

Seems to me that netanyahu and his cronies underestimated the world's response to just bombing thousands of Palestinians to bits from safety, and the reaction has probably shocked israel and the israeli supporters in the US government.

Even the western media will have to cover 2.3 million human beings suffering under a relentless bombing campaign, while being cut off from water, food, electricity and medical support.

The comparison between support being given to Ukraine vs that being given to Gaza will not have escaped many in the west.

Meanwhile across the world, outrage is fuelling demonstrations, even in Denmark, and in Turkey the demonstrations are massive. It may be happening slowly, but IMO the tide is turning against israel, and western governments that support israel.

As of last night it seems that all cell communication in Gaza has been cut, internet, too, so that then people outside Gaza can no longer see the massacre in real time. Al Jazeera was using satellite to send out news.

17 hours ago, Morch said:

 

Oh, Hamas 'assumed control'? Gee, I was under the impression they were elected. By Palestinians. By Gazans.

Why is there no need to talk about Hamas?

Why don't the people of Gaza, the UN, HRW and the Queen of Jordan go asking the supplies from them?

And Marie-Antionette said "Let them eat cake" (if they have no bread).

17 hours ago, deejai33 said:

I'm not sure which is more humane.  Bombing civilians or deliberately starving them.

 

How do we decide which is more humane ?

 

You say Hamas has plenty of essential supplies.   They are unaffected by the cutting off of life essentials.  Sounds possibly accurate, they have guns and power over the civilians, so they grab what they want.  OK I agree hamas is not affected by the israeli cutting off.

 

In that case why does israel continue to do it ?  Answer that ?  Not to deprive hamas operatives as you agree.

The supporters of Israel pose questions such as which form of death is more humane just to confuse the readers with irrelevancies, while denouncing statements of objection as "nonsense". Civilian death by whatever means is just part of a campaign of ethnic cleansing.

Just now, Jingthing said:

You made that up.

What's the point in your gratuitous sniping? Ethnic cleansing is not funny. 

17 hours ago, Yellowtail said:

I wonder if they let the Arab Muslim on Israel’s Supreme Court use the same bathroom as the Jews....

Each must have an office with its own bathroom, so don't worry.

16 hours ago, Yellowtail said:

What's reliable? "The Ten Point Program was rejected by the more radical hard-line factions of the PLO, which were mainly concerned that the Program could potentially turn into a peace agreement with Israel."

PLO's Ten Point Program - Wikipedia

I don't think so. 

A lot of people call Donald Trump Hitler, and Biden vibrant. 

 

 

Mentioning the Ten Point Program is an obfuscation. It dates from 1974 according to the Wikipedia entry which you cite. At the top of this entry are the following warnings: "This article has multiple issues." "This article may require cleanup to meet Wikipedia's quality standards."

The Saudi proposal dates from 2002. It is about peace, not rejection. It was rejected immediately by Israel, but at times US presidents have supported it "on paper". Israel has never made a counter offer.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arab_Peace_Initiative

There were some negotiations regarding the Bush Roadmap for Peace end with the Annapolis Conference in 2007, but this went no where since Israel was unwilling to give up control over West Bank borders, vacate settlements, or agree to genuine Palestinian sovereignty. 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Annapolis_Conference

Among the comments by Rabbi Dov Lior of the Yesha Rabbis Council: "Lior further stated that peace would only be achieved by "[cleansing] the country of Arabs and [resettling] them in the countries where they came from."[29]"

At present the question is whether Israel will end up digging itself a hole so deep that the world will find ways to force it to end the Greater Israel project.

3 hours ago, Jingthing said:

You can post all the links you want 

It doesn’t change the fact that Israeli citizens in Israeli borders are not living under apartheid. The discrimination that they do face does not rise to the level where that demonizing label is justified. 

You can deny all you want. I hope that in the end Israelis will come to a realization that they must have a constitution that embodies the aspirations of their Declaration of Independence.

6 minutes ago, Jingthing said:

Almost definitely not. Hamas killed any hope of that with their pogrom.

Hope springs eternal.

1 minute ago, Jingthing said:

Housing discrimination doesn't mean Israek is an apartheid state. Such issues exist in many cou countries. You're being absurd.

Buf I get it  You cling to buzzwords to demonize Israel.

Before saying I'm being absurd, please read the Amnesty report. The housing discrimination is pervasive and state policy rather than lower level discrimination such as 'red lining' in the US. I can't put links from Haaretz etc since I'm away from home now.

7 hours ago, Jingthing said:

Israel is not an apartheid state in regards to Israeli citizens within it's borders.

The Palestinian west bank is specific situation. Obviously the Israeli west bank settlements are an occupation.

To Hamas all of Israel is an occupation, so Israel has no choice now but to go to war.

You can read the Amnesty report to find out why Israel proper is also judged to be practicing apartheid against its Arab citizens.

https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/news/2022/02/israels-apartheid-against-palestinians-a-cruel-system-of-domination-and-a-crime-against-humanity/

There are reports on housing discrimination, for example, in various newspaper reports. If you want to know about this, try googling.

7 hours ago, thaibeachlovers said:

Did you mean "opposed" by some israeli politicians? I don't know of any that support that solution.

 

Such a solution would likely be opposed by israel as they will might end up with a majority Palestinian population.

The Two State solution has been dead for a long time as it would only work with a complete israeli withdrawal from the West Bank.

Daniel Levy certainly thinks that a two state solution is possible, but then he is not one of those craven ones called "politicians".

20 hours ago, Morch said:

 

 

The Arab Peace Initiative was actually accepted (under some political duress) by the PA. Hamas was evasive, but essentially rejected it. Doesn't matter much what the PA says if they cannot come to terms with the Hamas or garner enough support to make it irrelevant. Israel rejected the proposal.

 

There weren't 'numerous' Israeli two-state solutions made, but it is true that they were rejected, or not responded to. One could argue that the Israeli governments in question could not have delivered, but that cuts both ways.

 

A single state is a none-starter to anyone who looks over the fence to Lebanon, or further afield, Iraq. Doesn't work in the ME. People aren't quite 'there' yet to allow for this to happen.

 

And no, I do not think most Israelis actually support a two-state solution. There was never a clear majority for this (as far as I recall), and support in the notion eroded over time. The Hamas raid didn't do this any favors.

To your last point, up to now, Israelis have disregarded the situation of the Palestinians, so settlement activity and apartheid could continue, until the Palestinians disappeared, perhaps? Now Hamas has gotten the attention of not only Israelis, but the world. Perhaps the consensus will arrive at a viable two state solution sooner rather than later.

20 hours ago, Yellowtail said:

What detail are needed to want Israel to live in peace and harmony with Palestine? 

The Arab 10-Point plan was Rejected by the PLO because they wanted to continue fighting to eradicate Isarel. The Trump two-state plan as well as the numerous Israeli two-state plans have all been rejected for the same reasons.  

I single-state plan with a large percentage of Palestinian population wanting to kill all the Jews will not work. 

The Gaza Strip has not been occupied by Israel for 15-20 years.

Most everyone but the Palestinians (or a large majority of them) wants a two-state solution. 

Please provide a reliable link concerning PLO rejection of the Saudi peace proposal.

The Palestinians would definitely like a two state solution if the horrific settlers would be sent back to Israel and be banned from the Haram al-Sharif. No problem for settlers who have no animus to remain in the West Bank subject to local law. 

Since Israel effectively controls all access to Gaza, even through Egypt, Gaza is called the world's largest open air prison. It is why Israel will (if the US comes to its senses) hopefully be held fully to account for the ongoing collective punishment on over 2 million largely innocent people.

On 10/26/2023 at 5:59 AM, thaibeachlovers said:

While it's not guaranteed that they would do so, even if they did, will they want to eliminate Hamas ( or it's successor ), as that would give israel unfettered ability to do whatever it likes in illegally occupied Palestine?

Saudi Arabia and others have long been opposed to the Muslim Brotherhood from which Hamas sprung. So it's likely that they don't want an Hamas offspring.

1 hour ago, helloagain said:

But your Thai wife can translate for you can't she. Or she can phone up immigration and ask them for you. 

The Google Chrome browser has Google Translate to switch it all to English.