lannarebirth

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c7oKenp6ZLw

This video shows black clad gunmen firing at army lines.

Thanks for posting this. This was the video I referenced earlier in the thread. At least one of the people with shields protecting the gunmen is wearing red. I can't find the webpage, but there was a site with several still shots from the video, and seemed to be in a higher resolution than the Youtube version.

For those that can't watch the video, I've attached a quick screen cap of the "man in black" firing towards the army.

As to the second video, you'll notice the green lasers being used used to mark the possible sniper in the building, similar to what the army says was used to target the army leaders. So it looks like you have people with laser pointers trying to locate targets for those with the guns.

Just watched this clip, and something struck me as funny, if the army were firing live rounds back then why did the 3 guys clustered around the shooter have riot shields? I don't think a riot shield would stop a live round.

FD

I don't think the soldiers on the ground were firing live rounds somebody was firing live rounds from the buildings ( I think army) if you watch this video then you will agree this guy wasn't hit by rubber bullet.

Neither were the other protesters killed who were shot.

I really find it hard to believe that so many people believe the UDD would pay people to murder their own supporters just to get some international sympathy. Because as a tactic it does not further their cause inside. Thailand

Sure it does. Especially if you get the word out that it was the Army who did it. Then you get enough noise coming from all directions whereby nothing is true or false anymore. Lines get drawn and the next battle begins with everyone firmly secure in their own propaganda. Welcome to the postmodernist world.

A few days ago the Red were threatening to burn them (EC or CCC) down. I guess now they are praising them. A lot of things we see here would seem hypocritical in our own countries/cultures but not here in Thailand. Who knows, Abhisit may end up being the next Red leader and Jakraporn may end up on the Board of Bangkok Bank and Sae Daeng enters the monkhood ..

You guys making personal attacks against each other over this situation just look foolish.

I know you're being facetious, but truly that would be a good outcome. He has been their only champion in all this.

Yet apparently a level of corruption involving Bt258 million is acceptable for you.

OK. Quote where he has said that.

He still supports the leader of a party involved allegations of corruption involving Bt258 million baht.

of course I have supported Abhisit rather than them, and STILL do!

Yes they are allegations but when 4/5 members of the Electoral Commission think there is enough proof to dissolve the Democrats on corruption charges, perhaps it is time to start thinking about dropping your support for such a party, or at least suspending support until the final verdict.

And no, I don't support Thaksin. He should take responsibility for any wrongdoing he has done, just like Abhisit and the hypocritical Democrats.

Thailand is decades away from the kind of due process you seem to think occurs here. You should stick to what IS and get your head out of the clouds.

Ironically, the current government is doing exactly the same things the Thaksin government was accused of, namely, media suppression, murdering of civilians, and massive corruption. Absolute hypocrites.

I for one am glad to see the end of Abhisit and his smug defiance.

Clearly, you must not have lived in Thailand when Thaksin was PM or you'd never make such a statement.

^looked like a special forces sniper from behind/above.

That guy Sah Daeng was saying there were army snipers in elevated positions in a nearby school. Did the army think that if they took out a few reds the rest would back off?

I notice that at least a few of the dead were conspicuous by waving flags - the guy whose brain fell out was carrying a large red flag on a stick taller than himself, and another older guy was standing high up in the back of a pickup, also waving a flag - that was the one reported by an eyewitness to the BBC. So this would suggest that the killers were going for 'high-visibility' targets, suggesting that they would be seen going down, possibly with the effect of scaring others away.

It wouldn't be the first time elements of the Thai army - or any other army for that matter - adopted erroneous tactics in the heat of the battle.

What would the army gain by killing protestors?

It makes them look bad. Why would they do it?

Edit: And where was Sae Daeng to see any of this? I would assume he wasn't anywhere near the protests.

Over half of my post was exactly about why the army would kill protesters. Not any old protesters, just the most visible ones.

As for making them look bad, that would only be the case if it was proven beyond all doubt. I'm no expert, but I believe a major objective of the 'successful' sniper is to remain hidden. And given the obvious downsides to it being proven beyond all reasonable doubt, together with the globally-observed tendency of armed forces to 'back their own' in cases of alleged impropriety it's no wonder we probably won't ever get to the bottom of this case.

The video evidence I've seen would seem to suggest that the snipers were not linked to the army. It shows initial shots from behind of Red Shirt fighters. This was immediately followed by a fusillade of weapons fire and fire bombs and grenades coming from the Red side. The Army side was in shock because they were standing there with weapons full of rubber bullets (which you wouldn't think they would be under your scenario). They almost immediately went into full retreat, which again, wouldn't happen if they'd just instigated an assault.

If one were to accept the red analysis (at least as articulated by some in the leadership) there is an 'establishment' in this country that 'takes care' of the society- and which is content to permit elected governments to operate -until its own priviledge and/or security is threatened (and both require a reasonably functional society) -

The irony (among several) is that the red leadership actually views this as 'justice'- when in fact, it MAY be merely one more instance of a cunning application of 'law' in the interest, not of 'justice'- but expedience.

Hmm, to much ifs.

The EC isn't political motivated, the court is firm and fair.

If the red leaders would it call something else than 'fair justice' they would risk up to 5 year in jail. Guess where a couple of the pending court cases coming from.

Now the Dems and some of their supporter will realize what firm and fair means. Particularly what firm means. A 4:1 decision wow, for the PPP was it 3:2.

In the end same same, justice will be done and the country will move forward, no question.

EC is not politically motivated? I think more than a few people would disagree.

Including me. So Sally, back to the Anupong/Red Shirt thing. It's hard to picture in my mind. Can you flesh it out a little? Like, where does that leave Prem and the "republicans"?

Abhisit knows he can sit tight as the EC finding will take the rest of the year to process by the AG and if it might go to the court.

It's obvious Anupong has lost it by suggesting the parliament should dissolve.....if the parliament should dissolve, the military October list is up in the air - which is where Anupong presently appears to be anyway. I suspect if Prem is true to form Anupong will be either physically gone very soon (illness in the family) or his authority neutered in favor or a loyalist general in the back office who doesn't yank his foot from the fires as Anupong is doing.

The same people who want a snap election, the Reds, are the same people who bring violence to everything they do, predictably and without fail.....should there be a snap election the Reds would violently demolish democratic processes and democracy itself.

The past few weeks we already are looking a "Thai-style" civil war in the face.

Correct. Everything of any importance in Thailand is done through proxies and intermediaries.

I WANT TO THROW OUT A QUESTION FOR EVERYONE TO THINK ABOUT.

Lets assume that the reds fired first ,, to provoke the army , and the army shot back to protect themselves.,, Right ?

But this still does not explain why many of the reds that were killed were killed by real bullets when the according to the government the army had ONLY RUBBER BULLETS for use against the crowds. Live ,, " real rounds " were to be shot in the air.

And by the way ,,, whats the army doing bringing live rounds into a crowd control situation anyway ,, even if they are to be shot only in the air . Aren't tanks and armoured personal carriers , tear gas , billy clubs , full body armour from head to toe, helicopters, and RUBBER BULLETS (quite painfull if you get hit by one ) enough ???

At this point some readers of this are I am sure saying to themselves :

" oh , um , gee ,, ok well then it must have been the reds shooting other reds as a sacrafice to make it all play well to the media and make the army and government look bad ""

Spin a story enough and you can get people to beleive anything I guess.

If the charges are true, then Abhisit benefited from the illegal acts and as such he has to resign.

Where or where have all the hypocrites gone? it wasn't too long ago that the anti red shirt groups were insisting that the various PMs on the opposing side hd to go for far worse crimes, like Samak's cooking show (fiend that he was - cooking on national TV, the horror).

How will TV's bully brigade spin tis to excuse the Dems and of course find a way to blame it on Thaksin. The Dems played hardball and got the hit right back at the pitcher's nuts. This is going to be painful to watch.

I am an Abhisit supporter, in general. If the OAG and then the CC rule that the Dems should be resolved, then that is what should happen. None of us has all the facts in the case. If there was corruption involved and Abhisit is banned for 5 years then that too is fully acceptable. The law is the law and it should be applied evenly and fairly.

That is my position as well but I will admit I hope that doesn't happen. My guess is many coming events will supercede all that.

I guess a few people in the privy council are going to pucker up when they see this one.

I guess not.

The EC does only what the Privy Council instructs her to do.

This ruling means the Privy Council has dumped Abhisit.

The question now is if they will try to face the protestors appointing another puppet PM , or if they are so shit scared to call back Thaksin as he is the only one who can send the Reds back to their homes.

I guess you're not aware of why Thaksin called them out of their homes. He'll be making no deals with the PC.

In my previous post on ThaiVisa, I said that this is not about "red-yellow" or "prai-amataya" -- there is a kingdom at stake.

Thai society as we know it is approaching a crossroads which has nothing to do with anything that is being represented as a root cause of the current conflict.

A good Thai television commercial is as good as any commercial made anywhere, and the budget for this production is open-ended. Be assured that all the performers are highly-paid, seasoned professionals, and thus adept at appearing irrational, incompetent, or invisible. Some of the lead characters actually do have sincere beliefs, but in time they will, if history repeats itself, be dealt with accordingly.

The histories of many nations have been recorded. Consider the things that people do when kingdoms are at stake.

Now is the most dangerous of times. They stakes are inconceivably high, and so much has already been laid on the table.

I wish you all a happy Songkran, and may the new year afford you healthiness, happiness and peace.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Prince

http://www.prachatai.org/english/node/1734...content=Twitter

Pravit Rojanaphruk

"As I type these words, rumour spread widely about a possible ultra-royalist coup. A reliable red-shirt source told this writer this afternoon that they're preparing to face a coup as well adding that a significant number of soldiers are on the red-shirt side and is prepared for a showdown.

If Abhisit (or anyone who might be pulling the strings from behind) think of launching an "ultra-royalist" crackdown or coup by blaming red shirts for seeking to establish a "new Thai state" as the

yellow-shirt People's Alliance for Democracy (PAD) and a number of conservative ultra-royalist media have long been accusing then much blood will be spilled, so much that it may make Saturday night's crackdown/confrontation which led to 21 deaths and 858 wounded look

like a miniature dress rehearsal."

Its funny this would be classified as "news" now, as Thaksin's been laying this out in plain sight for months .

New elections ASAP seems like the next logical step. That, civil anarchy or Burma II .

You mean send the EC's recommendation to the court for prosecution, right? Ironically, this could give Abhisit more time in office than he might otherwise have had.

What would the Privy council gain from this? I think Mr T is the last man in the world rem wants in power. What would PAD gain from this? Even if they don´t love present goverment, they don´t want a red goverment. What would the gover ment and army gain from this? Nothing.

Whick part in the conflict would gain from this?

I don't see anything they have to gain from this. I do see where opportunists might see benefit in implicating them however. Most of the Red Shirt crowd doesn't know the real reason they're there. Rhetoric like Chavalits helps insert the wedge they need for future application of their plan. All IMO of course.

If you want democracy and don't want military coups, do you really want to see the military marching down the streets? In my country (US) and most of yours, if demonstrations get out of hand the police step in and end it. Why aren't the police doing their jobs?

You suggesting the american revolution was a pack of criminal thugs? The British at the time did! These days, the US seems to celebrate this criminal band of brigands (backed by the French, who really were paid back big time in their revolution) some date in July.... was it the forth!

I wish some of you keyboard heros could actually learn something about Thai mentality and face in general.

Thais are pragmatic a will resolve this eventually and everybody will have fought on the winning side, apart from a few criminals (who will be decided by the winning team) who will be thrown under the bus.

Maybe we can do a miix and match. Can you match a Red Shirt Leader to Washington, Franklin, Jefferson, Adams, Madison, Hamilton? That would go a long way toward me feeling sympathy for what appears to be merely criminals in charge.

Gen Chavalit said almost everybody knew who the third-hand was.

Who is the third Party any clue anyone?????

Seh Daeng and his Ronin Warriors. Not much doubt really. Don't know if there are others.

Not in Gen Chavalit eyes. He means PAD. But what would PAD gain from that? They know it will only help the reds.

How do we know he means the PAD?

In the recent past there have been references to a "Third Hand" and it was pretty obvious, then, they were alluding to the Privy Council. I do not know if that is who Chavalit is referring to here, today.

These thugs simply seem to believe they are above the law, acts like this make the perpetrators nothing more than terrorists.

I hope you mean the yellow thugs as well....

My guess is the "thug" elements of both factions were hired from the same pool of mo-cy taxi drivers. The Yellows didn't have a militia element however.

I dont defend kidnaping of course its wrong .

But the red want their TV station back on air

and i think they are right .

If they go to THai Com they will be shot at .

So now what should they do ?

What you're trying to say is:

"I don't defend kidnapping ... but ... I will now defend kidnapping."

If ThaVisa doesn't see fit to ban this guy for being here for no other reason than to inflame and provoke, then I beg you, please place him on ignore. Your replies to him renders my ignore function usesless. Thanks for listening.

What most of you don't understand is the underlying pragmatic nature of Thais and their ability to change sides or ideas to suit.

Its all corrupt and all always has been. The CAT man is probably having a few beers and a laugh with them, after all, they are now acting more like a government than the Democrats. What with all that running away, hiding in army camps, bawling the army out to attack the protesters.

Look who is calling the shots these days. The change is happening now and the history will be written by the winners, as will the court summonses, so don't get too excited about the staged warrents issued by this regime, they will be worth as much as a falangs comments on a thai website when this is done. Sorry JD and gang, you are as inneffective as the rest of us!!!

Enjoy the change, you can't stop it.

Actually, I understand that very well.

I am pleased that the signal for PTV is back - it gives an outlet for the anger -

Actually, it fuels anger. It does not provide "an outlet".

Another peaceful protest?????

Yes great for the red shirts,if the government hadnt switched off their tv station there wouldnt have been any trouble,I dont think for one moment the President of the USA likes Fox News,who are constantly critical of him and his democrats, to the state where they are really rude,but switch the station off!!!

The PM here has enough friends in the media to argue any things stated on the reds channel,no matter what was said on stage they didnt resort to violence,and anyway i personaly think that if the TV hadnt been shut down the reds would have gone home now for the festival.

Remind me please, Did the Red Shirt mob storm Parliament before or after their TV station went off the air?

Arisaman Pongruangrong led some 300 motorcyclists to take CAT Telecom CEO Jirayuth Rungsrithong from the CAT Telecom head office at noon Monday.

The Nation

could lead to an internet blackout.

take this Arisman out, arrest him, seal him in a tight cell. This guy is insane.

That's crazy talk. He's fighting for "democracy".

www.theglobeandmail.com

Thai democracy on its sickbed.

Updated April 4th. if you haven't already read it do so, interesting comments and a very good foresight angle.

One of the few foreign journalists I've seen that isn't swayed by globalist and corporate newspeak. He seems to "get it".

Brahmaburgers posted

Abhisit is not a puppet. He's also not an iron fisted tough guy,

So he needs all his backers to help him, remind him of the rewards he'll reap if he just hangs tough and keeps his chin up - leaving the armies daycare facility for scared little kiddies would be a good first step.

It should be clear to any impartial observer that Abhisit is not a puppet leader. He is currently faced with an insurgency which not only wishes to overthrow Thailand's currently elected government but also seeks to change Thailand's system of government through violent means. He must turn to a divided and self interested military, whose job it is to defend the country from foreign based enemies of the state and they have shown no willingness to do anything but protect their own positions. He is surrounded by crocodiles on all sides yet still he tries his best to save the country.

It is important to understand the difference between an enemy of a presiding government and an enemy of the state. It is the latter group that this government is facing now.

Agreed this is an insurrection that just got it's marching orders, and some martyrs to drum up support.

It doesn't make it any less a insurrection and beginings of civial war that SOME of the insurrectionists

believe they have reason for grievances. All citizens of all countries have grievances,

but most don't start civil wars. That isn't a march towards democracy, but from it.

Correct. When a much beloved figure gives the occasional speech you will often hear the words "or the country will fall/fail". Here we are.

Brahmaburgers posted

Abhisit is not a puppet. He's also not an iron fisted tough guy,

So he needs all his backers to help him, remind him of the rewards he'll reap if he just hangs tough and keeps his chin up - leaving the armies daycare facility for scared little kiddies would be a good first step.

It should be clear to any impartial observer that Abhisit is not a puppet leader. He is currently faced with an insurgency which not only wishes to overthrow Thailand's currently elected government but also seeks to change Thailand's system of government through violent means. He must turn to a divided and self interested military, whose job it is to defend the country from foreign based enemies of the state and they have shown no willingness to do anything but protect their own positions. He is surrounded by crocodiles on all sides yet still he tries his best to save the country.

It is important to understand the difference between an enemy of a presiding government and an enemy of the state. It is the latter group that this government is facing now.

"Enemy of the state"

What purpose does further inflaming the rhetoric and hyperbole serve?

The hotter and more exaggerated people make it, the harder it is to reach any sort of compromise or cooldown.

Next time you condemn the insane threats/rambles of the red leaders, why not stop and think if you help any cause (at least in the context of this discussion) by doing the exact same thing on the other side?

My intent isn't to inflame, just the opposite in fact. People keep chasing after whatever the latest media report says because that's how they've been conditioned. What they fail to do is THINK and put all the pieces together.