lannarebirth

Let me break it down for the Americans out there. The Red shirts are like hill billies from the Ozarks and Appalachians. Poor, not well educated and a bit marginalized by the rest of the country. They idolize a corrupt billionaire named Bernie Madoff, they thinks he's the cat's ass. Bernie is in jail for his misdeeds but sees these rubes as his ticket to freedom and the restoration of his ill gotten fortune. He tries to enlist the help of a million of these fine folks, but through bribery and angry rhetoric he only manages to get 50,000 to participate in his scheme. He has them march on Washington, he even puts gas in their pickups so they can make the journey. They occupy the streets of the nation's capitol. They piss on the sidewalks and make a nuisance of themselves. They loiter and block intersections and hang out at the Lincoln memorial. They hope by doing this that Obama will not only pardon Bernie, but that he'll declare him the new President. Sounds insane doesn't it? What about the other 300 million or so citizens? Shouldn't they get a say? No, all that matters is that Bernie Madoff gets rich and powerful once more. And when he does his protesters can go back to moonshining and marrying their cousins.

And that in a nutshell is what it is like to live in Thailand these days.

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While I agree with some of what you say I hope you still have enough sense to admit that not all Issan Reds are uneducated country bumbkins, urinating in the street, and such. I think you will find, if you bother to look, that many of the Issan farmers have quite a lot of common sense. Do you think it's so easy to run a farm in Issan, where you face problems of no water, no credit, poor soil, and low prices for your harvest...because everyone else is harvesting the same thing at the same time. If you do, I'm afraid you're wrong. A lot of those "ignorant farmers" have a pretty good idea of how to make the most of the system that constantly takes advantage of them....because money makes power, and those with money control the poor for their own benefit ( I mean to benefit those with money, of course).

I remember the story of one village head man. He put an advertisement into a Thai newspaper offering to sell his and his villagers votes to anyone who would get a health clinic into his village. A lot of people criticised him, said he was a fool to sell the village votes like that, Didn't he understand Democracy? He replied in the newspaper to their criticisims...he said, yes he understood Democracy. But he had been trying to get just one single Thai politician interested so he could get that health clinic in his village, Every one of them promised they would do it when elected...but once they were elected they forgot their promises. So now he had found a building to use as the health clinic. That's why he was selling his villagers votes...with the money he got for the votes he was going to hire a nurse or doctor to run the health clinic. Because the politicians hadn't done it for years...he was doing it himself...with the politicians money. Don't you think that village head man had a pretty good idea of the way Democracy actually worked in the real world...not as a pie-in-the-sky dream, but a real hard business arrangement?

I'm not disagreeing wsith what you say about Thaksin...but if you're poor with nothing to lose...even if you know you're going to get nothing, change is more important that "security and continuity". The status quo is worth nothing to you if you are on the bottom anyhow, and you know you're going to stay there as long as things don't change.

So please, not all Issan farmers are ignorant, no-culture, country bumpkins. One of the sharpest man I knew in the USAF was a "hillbilly redneck" who never owned a pair of shoes until he went into the USAF. But, my god, he could fix a radio that he had never seen or worked on before.

Great post Ima. It is my opinion that no one in recent Thai history, or maybe ever, better fits the bill to give these people the equal access and opportunity they seek and deserve, than the current government. It is my wish they be given the opportunity to do so unfettered by propagandists, and overseas agitators. If they can't deliver the goods for these people in a reasonable amount of time the give them the hook.

No, but he was brought into power with the help of the yellow shirts, and as a "thank you" made the yellow shirt Kasit his Foreign Minister. Makes sense?

He was brought into power, by way of a coalition Government when Mr Thaksin's party was over, due to election rigging. Now it makes sense.

Cheers, Rick

The truth is, Thaksin's obvious massive corruption destroyed him.

And what he could have salvaged, he will lose totally after this debacle.

It would be nice if they started going after his family's VAST other assets here in Thailand.

"

Edit the above for easy reading.

Now back to the topic in hand..............

and a Black Hawk helicopter evacuated Deputy Prime Minister Suthep Thaugsuban and other key political figures out of the compound.

Did not know we had them in Thailand Must have been left here from the Cobra Gold thing held in Feb this year.

I think a couple are on order in the latest budget. Maybe its a demo.

Mixed feelings. Just sent my wife to Nonthaburi but she's driving my new truck.

and WHY the mixed feelings? are u more scared for your truck or your wifie?

...hope they both return back unharmed and without any scratches

My wife can hold her own against any mob, so I'm not worried about that. If she encounters one there will likely be a thread here about it. Anyway, sorry for the OT in what is a VERY SERIOUS thread.

Mixed feelings. Just sent my wife to Nonthaburi but she's driving my new truck.

Aint it funny how Jing thing and me are on complete opposite sides of US politics but we both agree that red shirts are thugs?

That's interesting. So far I am fascinated that MOSTLY the American Obama supporters hate the red shirts and the right wing tea bagger Obama bashers love the red shirts. I doesn't make a lot of intuitive sense from an American right vs. left perspective, but remember totally different countries at totally different points in their history. (For example, during the American civil war I would have been a Lincoln loving republican, ha ha).

It's important to remember that EVERY political party in Thailand, with the exception of the communists (who are just along for the ride here) is to the right of center.

Aint it funny how Jing thing and me are on complete opposite sides of US politics but we both agree that red shirts are thugs?

I wouldn't say they're thugs, at least not the great majority of them. I would say they are a mob though, with all the negative connotations the word implies.

That Thaksin has done good things for the upcountry people after 50 years of neglect is undeniable .

What has THailand done to the poors that they are willing to follow a billionaire of murky morality ?

But then that Thaksin was the first does not mean he is the only one .

Things might never be the same in Thailand as before , most probably they wont

the pandora box is open .

But then why there cant be any honest leaders which implement good policies for all thais

minus the corruption , abuse of power , and violation of human rights ?

Good leaders that do travel upcountry to discuss the problems

Well said mate. 110% agree. A real shame Mr.T, with his own agenda, was the one to raise this issue, but, like you said, it's out now for the world to see.

GOOD LEADERS BRING PEOPLE TOGETHER AS A TEAM.

Clearly, this has not happened in Thailand, in recent times.

It's a shame he never got to bring tha people of the north casinoes which was his overarching dream. That would have provided them with some dignity.

Banharn rarely, if ever, backs dead horse in any race.

Rarely, true. But he backed himself in 96.

Looks like Banharn is still backing the government.

Yep, seems Thanong was wrong.

He's wrong a lot, but he does some interesting "what ifs" I might never have considered.

More like every day Thaksin foments civil war and anarchy Thailand's rift grows deeper. If Thaksin has just retired peacefully when the time came, we wouldn't have any of these problems with red criminal riots.

He wasn't allowed to retire peacefully he was overthrown by a Military Coup which is why Thailand is in the mess it's in now.

He was given the chance to resign... he protested his innocence a bit too loudly and for too long.

THE NATION: Weng on the Reds raid Parliament "It is Arisman's own act and decision without consent of other leaders."

So let's see some good faith and good citizenship by the other Red Shirt leaders. Turn him over to authorities for arrest. Yeah, when Bangkok freezes over..

My wife has owned land in Thailand for many years. As a rule she does not pay gratuities to public officials when asked. The one time she was persuaded to (at 1/40th of what you're being asked for) by a puyai baan the public official failed to follow through with the upgrades he'd promised for the parcels in her vicinity. In due course (18 months later) the land department got around to upgrading the entire area at no expense to landholders. I don't know how things work on the islands but that's our experience. Good Luck

Gold has multiplied by more than 4 times over the past decade! Viewed in the big picture gold has been steadily going up. And how well has the typical establishment follower done over the past decade? Well, we might take the S&P 500 as our measure. Over the past decade, the S&P 500 has declined by 25%. Now what would you prefer – 300% up or 25% down?

not all investors were that brain amputated to invest in S&P stocks

Luckily they amputated that part of my brain that senses pain or that might sting a little. Truthfully I buy "the whole thing" which isn't quite the same thing.

Assuming the Red shirts are successful and these actions lead to new elections. How are these actions fundamentally different than a coup which leads to new elections?

If you agree one man is not supporting the reds financially, your question which you persisted with so passionately is actually redundant!!

I said NOT only one man is supporting them, he is the biggest supporter by far I would guess and I see that rainman agrees with me as he also agrees it would not carry on as is without his money..I guess not so redundant after all.. but thanks for playing

In case you missed it and need it explained for you, the point was NOT the answer to the question but rather to have Rainman actually answer it without all his spin and deflection issues.. you know if it's NOT about money why would Thaksin pulling his money have any effect at all?? I don't suppose you want to take a shot at that one?? Ya thought not...

Bedtime for me kiddies.. have a good one...

Too easy...... the movement will carry on with or without the funding of any one individual........in fact the movement may well prosper......broadly thinking of course!!!.........

You may be and I hope you are right. Fact is the discussion of Thailands political future has moved beyond Thaksin but todays political realities have not.

This is really embarrassing ... why don't they just dissolve this mob or at least arrest their heads?

The problem doesn't go away by "dissolving the mob" or arresting the leaders. In case you haven't noticed, this is going on for over a year now. Simply cleaning up when your bathroom is full of water doesn't solve the problem. The water will come back unless you find the source of the running water.

Thaksin!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

As much as so many people on this forum are claiming, Thaksin isn't the main reason behind the protests. But I'm not here to educate people and you're free to have your own opinion.

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/Redshirt-Pro...36#entry3474336

This is really embarrassing ... why don't they just dissolve this mob or at least arrest their heads?

The problem doesn't go away by "dissolving the mob" or arresting the leaders. In case you haven't noticed, this is going on for over a year now. Simply cleaning up when your bathroom is full of water doesn't solve the problem. The water will come back unless you find the source of the running water.

Its in Dubai isn't it?

Forget the courts. The thread is not about the courts, but about continuing protests. The Reds are rejoicing as they see Abhisit as being weak. Even some in his own party see him as weak. It is time for Abhisit to put up or shut up. If he puts up, then the question is whether he has the support to shut the Reds down.

Any word of additional troop movements anywhere? The greater the size of the military/_police presence the more restrained they can afford to be.

Maybe back to topic. What do you think about the plan the goverment is presenting. Good or not. Election now or in 9 month, 18 month and whatever has been disscused at least 10 other threads.

I personally do not believe in this "cabinet for the poor". It institutionalizes poverty. Instead I'd rather see agencies and plicies aimed at uplifting all Thais, which of course the poor would be given greater consideration as their need is more urgent.

These iddiots are going to far it is time they were charged and arrested. This is getting rediculous. i have no problem with rallies, even sit ins to a certain extent but disruption of the country is going to far how is cowtowing to a few tens of thousands of radical terrorist protesters democracy ot of a country of 60 some million.

The government also ought to charge Mr. T with sedition, terrorism and conspiracy and put out an international warrent for his arrest with interpol and any and all other international police organizations.

Were you as vocal when the Yellow shirts who brought the current government to power shut down the Airport. I would say that was major inconvenience compared to this. And Kasit the current Foreign minister was at the airport rooting them on. .

Not your business not your country we are just visitors- -I am sure there is plenty to bitch about in your home country alsobitch about your own country

Well said,, too many farangs really dont know whats happening or why,,,it goes a lot deeper than red and yellow

Of course they do and of course it does, but do you really want to deal with it all in one week and end up with a failed state or would you rather see incremental improvement?

If reds said no Khun T, no one would believe them - so denouncing/supporting him really makes no difference. I think red movement is growing beyond Khun T much to his chagrin.

Here's why no one would believe them brit:

Americans in Thailand are divided like everyone else. Some pro red/Thaksin. Some anti red/Thaksin. Bringing US bashing into this topic (which I suppose the red mob has done with their embassy actions) is just idiotic and a meaningless diversion.

I agree, I don't want to be misunderstood - but people are different also americans. It is just that there is so many people here in Thailand, that wants power and money, and so many farangs - who support : STAUS QUO. And they urge they government to bash hard on anyone with a different opinion. That you wear a red shirt doesn't implicate that you want Thaksin back! But there is something radically wrong - and it has to change, and it will not happen unless somebody do something. What about the anmerican revolution, how about the Berlin wall, I am just asking. Somebody did ACT then..

Life is wonderfull here in Thailand, all farangs shouuld enjoy what is happening now.

And some of us are pro Red/anti Thaksin and feel that a victory by the Reds here and now, before the Thaksin cancer is excised, will set all the people of Thailand back many years, Reds included (especially).

You can´t be pro red and anti Thaksin, because the red movement is pro Thaksin. But you can, as I do, support changes for the poor in Thailand. The red movement and Thaksin is same, same!

It is now. I hope that changes but I recognize that is only wishful thinking.

Americans in Thailand are divided like everyone else. Some pro red/Thaksin. Some anti red/Thaksin. Bringing US bashing into this topic (which I suppose the red mob has done with their embassy actions) is just idiotic and a meaningless diversion.

I agree, I don't want to be misunderstood - but people are different also americans. It is just that there is so many people here in Thailand, that wants power and money, and so many farangs - who support : STAUS QUO. And they urge they government to bash hard on anyone with a different opinion. That you wear a red shirt doesn't implicate that you want Thaksin back! But there is something radically wrong - and it has to change, and it will not happen unless somebody do something. What about the anmerican revolution, how about the Berlin wall, I am just asking. Somebody did ACT then..

Life is wonderfull here in Thailand, all farangs shouuld enjoy what is happening now.

And some of us are pro Red/anti Thaksin and feel that a victory by the Reds here and now, before the Thaksin cancer is excised, will set all the people of Thailand back many years, Reds included (especially).

I'm not sure what the laws regarding assembly are in Thailand, but in America freedom of assembly is guaranteed right under the constitution. The right is abrogated if the assembly is considered to be "unlawful assembly". Unlawful assembly includes, when the exercise of ones rights of assembly diminishes the rights of others. Clearly the disturbances that have caused busineesses to close would qualify as "restraint of trade", which is unlawful. I'm sure there is a similar statute with regard to government institutions, but I'm not sure what its called.

It is call, "the YELLOW have the rights to all Airports in Thailand".

And that's all in the court system, which is seperate from the government. If you don't understand even that basic seperation of powers argument, it makes you appear extremely ignorant, and I'm guessing you're one of the brighter ones, which is frightening.

I'm not sure what the laws regarding assembly are in Thailand, but in America freedom of assembly is guaranteed right under the constitution. The right is abrogated if the assembly is considered to be "unlawful assembly". Unlawful assembly includes, when the exercise of ones rights of assembly diminishes the rights of others. Clearly the disturbances that have caused busineesses to close would qualify as "restraint of trade", which is unlawful. I'm sure there is a similar statute with regard to government institutions, but I'm not sure what its called.