wildewillie89

8 hours ago, jak2002003 said:

What area of Thailand do you live in?

 

I am in Chiang Mai and there are no such things happening here.  No vaccination books held by the vets to say what house the dogs belong to, no government people coming to the villages vaccinating the dogs.  

 

We don't see many bodies.. because the dogs either die as puppies, or skulk away to die in the undergrowth.  We see some hit by cars.  Also many get poisoned 'accidently' when farmers put rat poison in the rice fields.  

 

The local village shops have dogs, which last a few years, but are replaced by the puppies they have given birth to.  Sometimes, even way out in very remote places with no houses or people about, when I go cycling, I see dogs in the middle of nowhere too.  These must be feral dogs.. and no way anyone has had them vaccinated.

 

Your account sounds very good on paper, but I suspect in the real world this is not as good as it sounds.  

 

Figures are nearly always messed about with here.  For example, when I went to get anti rabies shots after a dog bite, I told the doctor I saw on the internet government report that our area was rabies free so maybe I did not need the vaccination.  Well, the look on his face was priceless... he said that is far from true. 

 

 

Vets generally hold records under a dogs name, rather than where they live. Although I think our vets have our address also (would have to double check). Either way, most vet clinics are private so they really don't have any obligation to give out information. If your area is considered no risk, then you wouldn't have seen the programs, as the budget would logically be put into higher risk areas. In my municipality in Chaiyaphum (higher risk - most recently a cat died of rabies in the last couple of months), the public health officials in each municipality keep a log of what privately owned animals have been vaccinated by them. The staff do rounds of their jurisdiction to find any dogs they can (so whether dogs on farms, feral in wood lands, and the obvious spots like temples etc). The biggest problem is their is not enough vaccines, hence the idea to tag/tattoo dogs so vaccines can go further rather than re vaccinating the same dogs. If your province does have rabies cases and moves into a higher risk category, then it would be a similar scenario for you. 

No doubt figures are messed with in Thailand, however, one only needs to look at the annual conferences and the new initiatives each year to see the country is at least trying (due to the incredibly hopeful campaign involving the eradication of rabies by 2020). The simple initiative of training local staff to vaccinate rather than restricting each village to only one day a year the vet comes to have their dogs vaccinated has already put waiting lists on vaccines this year for many areas. As the WHO points out, there are many cases that are not 'diagnosed' so the figures realistically are higher than what are presented, however, the trend is showing a decrease in cases. 

The doctor thing is hit and miss in Thai, they really wouldn't know unless they are directors, or had the cases themselves (which would also imply they have the actual physical means to make a correct diagnoses to begin with, which I think would be doubtful). For instance, one of our cousins was bitten by a house hold dog that was vaccinated 6 months earlier. Even with that known vaccination record it was still thought that the dog could somehow have rabies by the doctors. The belief comes from a obvious fear of the disease, but also the fact that many dogs are dumped by people from other provinces, so doctors will always believe rabies is around (even if the field work/researchers say it isn't), which is a not a bad thing as they will obviously never risk not giving a post vaccine. 

If these are supposed to be jokes then please don't quit your day job.

Numerous times in our discussions you have implied age brings qualities such as experience, knowledge and maturity (full well knowing that I am only in my 20s), and why should you listen or even respect someone younger than you.

You have really shown these qualities in this thread. Anymore rubbish that needs to come out of your mouth before you feel better about yourself again? If so, go ahead, annoy other members with the useless notifications. If not, then seriously, get out and about in the world and get some of that experience and knowledge you are clearly lacking. Time for me to do exactly that, but enjoy your computer screen for the rest of the day. 

Put them in  a box. 

9 hours ago, jak2002003 said:

Honestly, you think the village dogs and street dogs are all taken for annual vaccinations?

 

Around here the dogs are left to fend for themselves with the occasional food drop of left over Thai family dinner.  There is no way they are taken for vaccinations.. even as puppies.  They are always getting killed, run over, mange, and just disappear to be replaced by the younger ones or new ones wandering into the area.  There are puppies running about, pregnant dogs, male dogs fighting and going around in packs of well over 10 when a bitch is on heat.  

 

We have 2 temples right near our home.  I pass them every day.  I have never once seen dogs being vaccinated there in 10 years of living here.   Maybe where you are its different.  I am in the countryside on Chiang Mai.

 

 

Yes, a hell of a lot more vaccination needs to occur. However, it is not as dire as people seem to think (if looking at it from a developing country point of view). If talking annual vaccines, then it is more rabies we are considering in Thai. If we look at the figures, vaccines clearly are being given and are helping (as represented in the number of human deaths/animals testing positive in the early 90s compared to now). 

The Vet Ministry each year lists the provinces that need to vaccinate not only dogs that fall under government responsibility (strays, government buildings, temple etc), but also privately owned dogs. So if your area is clear of rabies and has been for a while, then the government will only vaccinate non-private dogs. If your area is at risk, then they will also vaccinate privately owned dogs annually until the risk is contained. The only reason for Thai residents not to know about this is that they live under a rock or they blatantly refuse to vaccinate (farang generally vaccinate at the vet anyway). 

I live in a rural Issan village and even here the local officials have books in their offices with lists of houses that have been vaccinated. When I was bitten by a village dog, I just had to locate the house, go to the Tessaban and find out if that dog had been vaccinated or not. Before, vets would administer the vaccine, however, now 3 or 4 local officials have training/licensing to administer them. So before, the local areas were restricted to a day a year (vet was free), whereas now the country is running out of vaccines as so many dogs are being vaccinated.

Yes, Thai don't look after their dogs. They don't feed them, they leave gates open so they form packs/get pregnant, they fight, but there are programs run in the areas the government deem at risk. Even though the dogs look incredibly mangy and deformed, many Thai (obviously nowhere near all), even in rural Issan, will get puppy shots. Untreated core diseases have fatality rates of 50-90% for puppies born to mothers who haven't been vaccinated. We would be seeing bodies laying about everywhere if absolutely no vaccines were given, rather than the frequent bodies, but not so frequent that one would be inclined to think the community has an extremely serious outbreak. Distemper especially, from memory, was the leading cause of canine death prior to the vaccine being introduced.

My Mrs is a head of Public Health so helps coordinate these programs. She recently suggested to the Vet Ministry at a conference to vaccinate for rabies every few years and tag/tattoo the non-owned dogs to identify them so vaccines are not wasted on already vaccinated dogs. The reply from the Vet Ministry was, 'we know other countries do 3 yearly rabies shots, but in Thai we do annually'. She has since written an essay to the Royal family with the suggestion (which she was awarded for), however, Thailand is quite slow to change compared to the rest of the world on many things.

Whatever helps you sleep at night. 

And that's why he came to Thaivisa to ask the question of what to do next. I answered his original question with the proper processes. It is up to him if he wants to go down those paths or not.

Personally, I don't really see a need for a follow up with something so small. 

2 hours ago, JLCrab said:

Bump @ 30 days.

From what he was saying he was wanting to go to the tribunal first. If he got an appointment quickly (that is if the tribunal isn't busy), then the tribunal would have to contact Tessaban and tell them to investigate the matter before a full hearing would occur. Which is why normal procedure is to go to Tessaban first, just like the West as my previous comment stated. Unfortunately here, most completely ignore common sense and go police.

Completely forgot about this. You really need to get out more if you're tracking something as small as this in your diary in the hope of being right lol.

Just adding to that, the heartworm test is exactly the same as the test vets use for ticks (i.e. SNAP test). Other testing can obviously give more information about how far things have progressed if the SNAP gives a positive result. Full bloods and a SNAP shouldn't take longer than 30 minutes to receive the results and obviously should be either done 6 monthly or annually (as those two simple tests provide so much information re all health issues but particularly heartworm/ticks). I think 950 baht for CBC/SNAP at my vet. 

6 hours ago, jak2002003 said:

It might be better not to vaccinate our dogs at all and let the fittest survive to reproduce... which have natural immunity to disease.   Also stop breeding the weak genetically messed up pedigree dogs... which nearly all get hereditary diseases and its the norm to have expensive vet bill and heartache with them.

 

No one vaccinated the village mutts here.. and most are strong and fit.  Then see my neighbour with her pugs which can hardly breath and have recurring eye problems and vet bills, because they are genetic freaks.  

Not even puppy vaccines? Not even Rabies vaccines?
 

The village dogs that are owned are generally at least vaccinated as puppies (which is all they really need to be) and the government has run programs where one day a year most people take their dog to get vaccinated for rabies (usually at the temple). 

The pedigree issue I think has a lot to do with showing lines and looks. Yes, mutts generally are healthier, but working breeds and dogs that have stayed true to their heritage rather than be changed for looks or to fit into society still do quite well. 

6 hours ago, dick dasterdly said:

Back on topic - she also mentioned an annual vaccination against heart worms.  Apparently expensive, which is why it's not immediately offered by vets?  Does anyone know anything about this?

Heartworms can be found from a simple blood test. Correct me if I am wrong, but I think they take a good few years to show any symptoms, so usually dogs over 2 years old will be the ones that have symptoms. Again, a lot of it depends on how healthy the dog is to begin with. Can be a fatal problem, but rare these days (although who knows in Thai).
 

Dr.Ronald Schultz says this: 'Checking for heartworm, tumors, dermatological problems and tooth decay should be done on a yearly basis'. 

Took my 8 month old puppy in a short while ago as he was in pain, couldn't lay down or lower his head to eat. The vet said to us a dog came in yesterday with similar symptoms and it was a tick disease. But then he said that he knows our dogs are well treated/looked after so he doubts it is the same problem. He did the tick tests/full bloods to make sure and sure enough all were negative. 

He weighed the dog again himself as he couldn't believe the number the vet nurse had written. He then felt around the dog to see if their were any neck/spine issues. 

In the end it was growing pains (fast growing Mastiff). Was put on pain killers for 7 days and the very next morning he was as good as new and has been ever since. Interestingly enough, he also included a calcium supplement he imports from Europe to take for 2 weeks as he said no quality diet in the world has enough minerals for a puppy growing this fast. 

Very important to search and not just treat with dogs as symptoms are similar for every issue and dogs cannot communicate their symptoms to us obviously. In this case a course of anti-biotics would have been given for absolutely no reason by most Thai vets (just like they are unnecessary given to humans in Thai). 

1 hour ago, dick dasterdly said:

Incidentally, I gather (long story) that distemper and parvo virus is rearing its ugly head on Phuket - so probably best to vaccinate our dogs again against these horrible diseases .

When were they last vaccinated? 

 

1 hour ago, Arjen said:

I have this discussion often with my wife. An older vet, or doctor for people has a lot of experience. So they do not need to search what is wrong, They just treat, and very often correct. A young vet, (or doctor for people) is more aware from new techniques and insights, but lacks experience.

The fact that nearly all dog problems have similar symptoms, if the vet does not search then he is merely taking wild guesses. Treatment is similar for many of the diseases in Thailand so sure he may look like a genius. However, tick disease symptoms are exactly the same as cancers for example. So if he doesn't search, then the cancer will be picked up too late. 

Maybe I should have worded it better, I was going off the usual vets you will see in Isaan.

For example, there are a few vets in my city, but will look at 2 of them for an example. One clinic has 2 vets working in it and 1 employee. Within the shop maybe 70% of the space is dedicated to product, and 30% is dedicated to examination room. The 2 vets sell the products, the employee looks like she just cleans. Their vaccine prices are low, but any treatment is expensive. Majority of their income comes from sales it seems (as they miss out on a lot of income from xrays, complicated tests/surgeries etc).
 

The other clinic has 1 vet, and about 5 vet nurses with a permanent person at the front desk and cleaner. His sales are about 30% of the space, and has 2 examination rooms, xray, surgery rooms and cages out the back. His vaccines are more expensive but treatment cheaper. You will never actually see him in the waiting/sales room, only in the examination room or his office. 

I am fully aware not all vets would be bad vets just because they sell products, however, the structure of the clinic should be examined to see where the focus of the vet is, how many staff, if vet is trying to sell etc etc. 

2 hours ago, Arjen said:

Not agree with this. We visit different vets. One of the best we visit looks more like a pet shop (he does not sell pets, but everythig around it he sells) then a vet. It is an older vet, and he has a lot of experience. His experience makes in our opinion that he is very often correct in his diagnoses, and prognoses. 

 

By the way, I recently had a cut in my leg what needed treatment in a hospital. They applied 12 stitches. I had to pay 210 Baht. And two days later we went with one of our dogs to the vet with a wound what did not stop bleeding. The vet applied two stitches. Invoice was 510 Baht....

 

Arjen.

I dont understand the stitches reference. 

Older and experienced I would agree means something in the West, as they are also forced to keep up with the latest research and global trends (as the customers are usually educated also).

But seeing as the WSAVA found the majority of Thai vets do not keep up/follow global trends with even the most basic/routine visits then I would opt for a vet who has had (or has colleagues theyre in communication with) overseas study/work experience - usually, but not always, they are younger.

Of course, it is personal preference, and older vets will be able to deal with the more general issues. The more complicated issues require a lot of up to date knowledge though. If the focus is on a pet shop, rather than veterinary practice then the lack of research will rise it's head when it really matters.

Just ask about the best vaccine protocol in their opinion to find out If they up to date or not. If the vet can't read a translated WSAVA paper that even expats can get their hands on, then chances are they haven't bothered getting up to date with other veterinary related issues or choose to ignore them as money is more important. 

Kibble diets are more of a human convenience than any actual value to the dog. The more 'fancy' kibbles are much better than the cheap ones and they are so much more expensive for a good reason - better list of ingredients.

From what I've heard, vets don't do a whole lot of study on nutrition but there are obvious reasons that most don't stock the cheap or middle range stuff (mostly filler food).

Although in saying that, if a vet practice has more area dedicated to sales than actual examination rooms you know you need to change vets lol. 

Lifespan can be affected by many things; genetics, environment, lifestyle so it's a little more complicated. Various studies (funded by interest groups), will show different results. One study from Sweden showed dogs fed cheap kibble live 32 months shorter. The dogs seem healthy whilst young but then pick up degenerative diseases and age very quickly, whilst those fed homemade food aged slower.

2 hours ago, spidermike007 said:

I don't think any sane person could believe this lot are clean. In fact the military are probably the most corrupt of the lot. However, what was not expected was that they would be so in your face with their corruption. I doubt even their supporters could find an excuse for Prawit. 

 

This watch thing is only the tip of the iceberg.  The bank accounts, properties and various other assets held by the generals and their relatives (if revealed to the public) would make Prawit's watch collection seem the equivalent of mini lego set.  But out of sight is out of mind. So we have to hammer on about the matters we know about - which makes me wonder why there is no further news on Prayuth's brother's house. The fact of the matter is this will never be pursued. And Prawit will not lose his job. These men have no shame. And the irony is that most Thai people, and even many ex-pats have no idea what is going on, and have bought into the fake narrative they have created about cleaning things up. Talk about deflection. Maybe these clowns are smarter than we give them credit for!

I don't think anyone is claiming that are completely clean.

In the case of Thai people, I don't think they really worry too much what happens up the top .They know full well it goes on and they know regardless of who is in power it will continue to go on. They also know for it to change it would take a huge disruption to their lives so they just turn a blind eye to it. I think very few people are of any actual moral substance (re corruption), and a lot of the outspoken in the country are outspoken due to more jealousy than anything else. One just needs to look at the country from a community level to know that. 

What the majority of people probably care about though is more local/provincial issues, as those issues interfere with their everyday lives. So in the case of the junta in terms of these issues, they have given everyday folk back a little bit of power with the introduction of legal avenues in each province. Before, local officials could walk around doing as they please. Now, local officials make sure they cross their ts and dot their is and actually attempt to do some of the work required of them. 

Of course, it is an intelligent deflection that is let down by their arrogance. The people see corruption tackled in their everyday lives, whilst at the top, what has always happened continues to happen. So to them at least something is better. I think what's more interesting, is the continual discussion from expats of something so small, almost as if corruption has never existed in the country. Expats are getting pretty desperate when the Junta has out smartened us so much the only thing we can comment about is their physical appearance (as always comes up in these threads). 

1 minute ago, Arjen said:

I wrote wrong WE. I have tried to edit and change it to WW but auto correct continues change to WE 

 

Ok. Thanks for the long and good explanation. Please realise that not all ( I guess the most) here are native English. So sometimes we struggle a bit with the language.

 

Thanks again for the good explanation. It is really appreciated!

 

Arjen.

No worries. It is tough. Expats in Singapore also have issues with the 7 in 1 vaccine I have heard. No doubt other Asian countries also. The Asian market has flooded vaccines with 7 in 1. The WSAVA (World Health Organisation for pets basically), have already told Asia to have more vaccines available. The reason I think they keep the 7 in 1 is that you must do it annually, and vaccines make up around 14% of a vets income from memory. So if people started doing 3 yearly or longer vaccines like the West, then they will lose the money. Only one of my vets (the one I see regularly) in my province stocks the 3 in 1 so it is possible your vets will not have it anyway, unfortunately. One further point to remember is after the WSAVA investigation of Thailand, they found Thai vets had no knowledge of world vaccine trends and that Thai universities had not conducted any research into vaccines. So always remember, if the vet claims Thai research, he is lying. 

No worries about the language, you at least can speak another language. I barely speak one lol.

31 minutes ago, Arjen said:

Further I have no idea what WE means with the often used term core vaccianation.  My dictionary does not help also. It should be much easier when you explain terms you use (DD also requested this) also on a way that people who do not read thousands of pages of scientifuc reaearch can understand, or at least have a small clue where you talk about. 

'WE'? My last response did not include the word 'WE'???

If you mean 'core vaccines', then they are just the vaccines that are recommended and sometimes required by law as the diseases can be fatal. So core vaccines are rabies, adeno, parvo, and distemper. They are the vaccines I would have thought the travelling guidelines required (and completely fair enough). 

'Non-core' vaccines are for diseases that are either self-limiting or treated very easily, so many vets now do not recommend (unless out to make some dollars). Some vets will give the scare campaign that some diseases are zoonotic, which is completely true, but that is also implying the vaccines actually work to help prevent them. Hence, they fall under the banner 'non-core', so not necessarily needed/recommended. 

The current thought regarding some non-core vaccines is depending on where you live you should think about giving them. However, that idea is being questioned now with further research into the vaccines, particularly the Leptospirosis one which has some serious side effects and doesn't always actually work (can give the disease it is preventing/also doesn't last the duration of the year). Not to mention, when I initially looked into the Lepto serovars in the area I live in Isaan (my area is endemic), the vaccine would only 'barely cover' 1 of the main 5 or 6 serovars from memory (there are over 200 in total but not all cause disease) , so to me, it really isn't worth it. 

There was a big story in the UK especially about it as many dogs died and in 2014 the European Medicine Agency requested 'warnings' to be attached to the vaccine so owners knew the risks. The WSAVA has also ruled Leptospirosis vaccines 'can be associated with adverse reactions'. The 7 in 1 is super risky here in Thai as they are all mixed together with Lepto. Yes convenient and easy, but dangerous. Why I suggest the 3 in 1 core if the travel guidelines allow for it. Especially as Lepto can be treated with anti biotics and has a positive prognosis (a healthy dog can eliminate it before it even shows symptoms). 

That is the beauty of research, they look at thousands of dogs. Unfortunately, our personal experiences only cover a handful of dogs so the numbers are stacked up against us. 

I haven't wormed since puppy hood. If the symptoms come up for worms then I will treat them accordingly. Preventative measures are fair enough if the risk is high though. 

I have no idea, but what vaccines do the travel guidelines actually require? I would have thought just core vaccines as non-core are non-core for a reason - they either do not work, are not serious illnesses (easily treatable). not endemic, or have more serious side effects. If the guidelines require just core then the vet should have the 3 in 1 and obviously rabies also. A good diet and antibiotics takes care of the non-core. 

I agree with the rest. Let the dog run, let them play, let them sort out their differences. More often than not the loud fights are the harmless ones, they only become harmful when people step in to stop them (I learnt the hard way lol). 

The issue for many regarding dry dog food is, one, the bloat factor, and two, that most cheaper dry dog food is just filler carbs with a tiny bit of what the dog actually requires.

According to Purdue University, depending on the ingredients of dry dog food, chances of bloat can increase up to 320%. Raw and table food is generally seen as the safer option re bloat (depending on the size of the dog of course).

It is difficult, as many things need to be taken into account: lifestyle of dog, age, size, how old the breed is, genetics, allergies etc. I think it is only the last few years the raw diets have become popular, however, little mainstream research has gone into the health benefits of them (for obvious reasons). But mainstream research has gone into what diet components a dog needs, and massive intake of filler carbs isn't something a dog needs. So common sense kind of dictates what a dogs diet probably should consist of to make it the strongest it can be.

If someone's dog is the standard cross breed, non-working lifestyle and of no real size then chances are dry food may be sufficient. I used to feed our dogs dry when I was young as it was standard practice then. However, if purebred (more chances of medical problems), and bigger, then dry food being sufficient over a long period of time I would say would be more of a minority of cases. Personally speaking, dry food resulted in one of larger dogs dying from bloat so I wouldn't risk it after puppy hood. 

In the case of Thailand, it is that much harder as, yes, there are many diseases about. The vast majority of tick diseases though the dog should eliminate themselves naturally, or are easily treated. That is where I think the more balanced raw/table scrap diet might give an edge - as the dog is getting what it actually needs (rather than mostly carbs). 

1 hour ago, Laza 45 said:

My girl loves gold.. sure, she likes to wear it on special occasions.. lots of gold ..big face.. but the main reason she likes it is because it is a form of saving money.. if she needed money in a hurry she would just take it down to the gold shop and sell it or take it to a pawn shop and collect it later.. it is an old habit and seems to work for her and her family.   Blenders and things for the house don't make it.. 'it is for the house.. not me..'..  A dinner out with family and a birthday cake is always a winner..     Buying gold.. 1/4 bhat doesn't do it.. 1/2 is acceptable.. 1 bhat is for true love and wishful thinking... 

 

As a form of saving money is a good way to look at it from the girls point of view. I ended up with the opposite, the Mrs will be lucky to put on a dash of make up lol.

I think a lot of face ends up in people's own imaginations rather than actually achieving the desired outcomes if that makes sense. 

Got my Mrs a blender (which was really for our daughter's food). Another gift wasn't strictly a gift but the timing coincided with her birthday...that was a puppy for the family.  

From what I saw back home and living here, Thai really couldn't care less if you give a gift or not - as usually it is their work friends who make a big deal out of their birthdays. Maybe just take them out for dinner or have a small party at home with friends/family. 

Speaking to other people in our city we know who date farangs and the Mrs looking at the Thai forums, the social media generation really couldn't care less about the actual gold, just more 'showing it off' to their friends on social media (which could explain other comments about it having to be a certain price). So I would be sure I knew the Mrs pretty well to buy something like gold as I would want it received for the right reasons. 

29 minutes ago, nikmar said:

Does Prawit have any credibility left?

After all the things he has said, one might be inclined to think that he has all the credibility in the world. However, rather than it being spread, it is in an abundance within the circles that he needs it in.

Everything else can just be dismissed as political opinion that I think  members on this forum lose more sleep over than he does lol. 

1 hour ago, speedtripler said:

This guy is a bit less annoying   and he says the Triton is  better than the ranger  best in its class actually..... 

I doubt many people arI e buying  for the ability/importance  to haul 3.5 tonnes anyway

 

 

 

The Mrs looked at some Thai reviews and they seemed to think that both are as capable as each other, just depends on how insecure people are. Do they want to be seen driving the less bulky and cheaper car. I think farang are probably less focused on that sort of stuff. Will ask her to have a look at the forums re Ford servicing issues in our particular area.

11 minutes ago, speedtripler said:

This review covers the Triton, ranger, hilux, bt50 and a few others.... Interesting 

 

 

I hate this arrogant prick lol, have seen a few of his reviews. Would definitely go Ranger back home, but potentially suspect here. I was told my Chev dealer in my city doesn't even have its own servicing department  (albeit from a Ford salesman lol). My wife's boss just bought a new Chev even though his best friend owns Ford, so I wonder if he is aware of the Ford issues - will have to get her to ask him why he went Chev and not Ford.

The Triton's new engine I think has given it the extra torque to get over his criteria and one extra gear. 5 speed auto is still behind everyone else but I saw one review saying it's bad on paper but gear ratios are not too bad in real life driving. Plus the travel days are down to a minimum now with the two little ones so not as much freeway driving where 6 would be needed for a good few years anyway . The towing, well I have no real current plans to tow 3.5 tonne lol