ourmanflint

I can see from way over here in the UK, that the troubles in Pattani are not getting any better, but they most definitely are polarising, and thay are doing so across religious divides. This is about Islamism. Nothing else...

it is a well known fact that distance, an armchair to read a newspaper and watch television (or walk a few paces to use the internet) is the basis to render a reliable expertise on various problems existing on this planet.

take me for example. i am a german, living in Thailand but i am extremely qualified to lecture about the influence the Vatican and catholicism had and still has on the century old tribal problems between Tivs and Idomas in Benue State, Nigeria. i am also an expert how islamism affects the animal husbandry in the southern part on Mongolia. if you have any questions, please don't hesitate to ask.

ego te absolvo "ourmanflint"!

I'm sure at some point during the day you think your logic is flawless and that your wit only adds to the obvious high regard in which you hold your thoughts.

Unfortunately I see neither, maybe me being all the way here must account for that too!!

You said it all when you said you were in the UK. I am in all likelihood the leading American expert on Islam in Thailand, Cambodia, and Laos. I have spent more time with these people than any other westerner including a 2 year investigation into the so called Cambodian/Thailand Terrorist Connection which I concluded was total bull Shitt. For most who remember, shortly after Hambali was arrested in Ayutthaya there was a crackdown on Muslims in Cambodia sponsored and financed by the good people who brought us the Vietnam War. Many Muslim teachers were rounded up and deported and the shells of what were once schools are now just another desperate promise shattered by office workers who in far away climate controlled environments have tried and convicted men they have never met and did what Ronald Reagen would have never done. That is supply the Hun Sen government with millions of dollars to victimize the Chams who survived both Henry Kissinger's illegal carpet bombing and the genocidal maniac Brother Number One.

Ronald Reagen did spend untold millions keeping the Khmer Rouge in power though for one reason, his belief that the enemy of my enemy is my friend which is far from taking the moral high ground, the direction I try to stay in within these musings. The Muslims of Central Thailand only want peace in the South and a little sense of justice concerning disappeared Muslims like Somchai who is the most well known case. However the Southern Muslims have been pushed over the line and no longer support the government as it exists there now. While there is much sympathy throughout the Muslims communities I can assure you the Muslims I know are busy working 16 or more hours a day to put food into the mouths of their children when they are not praying and have no time for such luxury as war which is reserved for politicians, their bean counters, and pawns until they manipulate the situation to the point that food is disrupted. Thats when things get interesting or like we say back home, "Get to the nut cutting", Have a nice day.

I never claimed to have more OTG experience, I was trying to say that sometimes distance provides objectivity. If you could keep your expertise to the matter at hand instead of meandering across the world, I would be happy for you try and explain why what is happening without recourse to sentiment.

This is about Islamism. Nothing else...

Separatism. For ages they've been fighting for the Kingdom of Pattani.

When you say "nothing else" you deny their nationalism. Islam is a big part of it, of course, but there's also a claim to the land, they also have their separate language and their own traditions, and their own version of history.

They don't want to be Malaysians, btw.

I'm sorry but I think you are wrong!!

Why did the insurgents kick off after almost 200 years of relative peace and stability??Why.. because of the likes of Al-Qaeda and Jemaah Islamiyah.

The excuse is the separatism, the reality is Islamism.

Don't be fooled by any other rhetoric.

This is about Islamism. Nothing else...

This isn't very objective either.

Would you care to elaborate?? Just what is this about then??

Things aren't always as black and white as some would have you to believe.

Link to article in the Nation

Mai Krap

I find it hard to tell wether you are genuinely concerned about the the spin being put on the problems in the south by the likes of analyst Dr. Abuza and others, or are you just another yellow belly apologist for the Islamists in Pattani!

You offer much to debate, but really all you end up doing is confusing the issue by clouding disparate problems, and like the islamists you try to make one problem seem to be something else. Your anti-spin of the situation in Pattani seems to come from some innate sense that only you are right and no one outside of the area could possibly see things more clearly and objectively than you yourself. I can't say this is a very wise stand to take, as it often is the case that an objective view is needed more than a "gut" view from those such as yourself. It is all too easy to become entrenched in local everday life to see above the troubles and the effect they have.

I can see from way over here in the UK, that the troubles in Pattani are not getting any better, but they most definitely are polarising, and thay are doing so across religious divides. This is about Islamism. Nothing else...

Islamic factions have had very great success in getting what they want through violence over the past 60 years, and they have learned to be vigilant and never ceasing in moving towards what it is they want, a total Islamic state. Violence in Islam has become an acceptable tool, it has become accepted as the will of god, why else would these Islamists be on such a ludicrous quest.?

If you cannot accept that this violence has it's root in Islam and that a peaceful outcome to this without massive counter violence on the part of the Thai government is possible, then you severely misunderstand the iron will of these Islamists in their determination to bring about the changes they want to impose on all those in the area.

What a fantastic waste of money... and ever so slighly condescending from the British government!

There is absolutely no point in even talking about cyber crimes, when in many of these asian countries actual real crimes against children are happening on a daily basis, even as some posters here have said , right under the noses of the Thai government. The sentiment is right, but the actions are arse about face, places like Bangladesh don't even have a useable internet network so talking about cybercrime is ludicrous.

What the British Government and others really need to do is to track all known child sex offenders in and out of the countries they visit or maybe they should take away their passports for 10 years.

I wish they were serious enough to do something radical!!!

You bitch about Thailand, do us all a favor and go back where you came from. Why are you here to make Thailand just like the place you left, so you can be unhappy here too.

Aloha

same old nonsense from people like yoursef... you think others are pompous whereas it seems you are the one who is behaving like an arrogant fool!!

People who complain about Thailand are generally involved in life here and they complain not because they have to, but because they genuinely want to see things change. Maybe you should stop living in cuckooland and take a look at what is happening all around you.

Oh, but then you didn't even have the nowse to find out if buying land was on the up and up. You just go along with the flow like a turd going out to sea.

well, well....

what a bunch of terrible stories!! It comes as no surprise though as I always suspected that at some point the half wit, half brain mentality of many of these young thai guys would eventiually show itself for waht they really are...

small dick thugs who deserve nothing from anyone, not from farangs returning their ire, nor from those good Thais who helpfully stand around and then disappear when needed to corroborate stories..

What a sad year for Thailand this is turning out to be!!

More bad news....

Attack on Thai school kills three

At least three teenage students have been killed in an attack on an Islamic school in southern Thailand, police have said.

They said explosives had been thrown into the school in Songkhla province before the assailants opened fire on the sleeping quarters.

Seven other students were wounded in the attack late on Saturday, which the police blamed on Muslim separatists. BBC here

Hadn't seen this posted here yet.... I really hope all the do gooders are happy sipping their beers while all these kids die!!

having returned to the UK recently, news like this makes me very sad. There are a lot of disparate events in Thailand which are conspiring to making it more and more unattractive as a place to plan your annual holiday.

There cannot be a peaceful soultion to this debacle in the south, as that would result in Thailand ceding Pattani to Malaysia, which is not an option. The only alternative therefore is to remove the problem at source, and yes unfortunately that does mean operations similar to those performed by the British Army in Ireland and elsewhere. Simply put, the Thai gov't need lots of surveillance and then decisive action in the form of snatch and kill squads.

Those that believe there are other ways out of this are deluding themselves and putting the lives of the Buddhist population of Pattani in the front line of danger, whilst they sip their beer and smile to themselves that they have it good.

Very sad...

Can someone just explain to me how this happens under everyones noses???

I don't believe there aren't lots of people who know about this yet do next to nothing about it!

Where do these girls come from?

Oh I see. Ourmanflint got it from another thread that was dated to 2006-08-24. Guess he was too excited to see news which may or may not mean Thailand "slowly sliding into the mire" that he forgot to look at the date.

That's not the first time I've been caught out by someone dredging up an old story... sorry about that!

It was at the top of the pile I tell ya!!!

You may be interested to learn that a bird not seen anywhere in the world for over 150 years, the long billed reed warbler, it was recently rediscovered at a water treatment plant just outside Bangkok!!

Funny old world eh??

Thailand tells Canberra its bombing warning overstated

BANGKOK: -- Thai Deputy Foreign Minister Sawanit Kongsiri on Friday said that the ministry had informed the Australian government that the situation in Thailand had not worsened to such a level that it was necessary to warn Australian residents and visitors to Thailand -- tourists and businesspersons -- of possible bombings and other violence here.

He said the ministry had already explained to Canberra that the situation in Thailand was not as bad as suggested in its warning.

but ...

A suspected car with bomb found nearby PM's residence

Police arrested the person who hid a TNT explosive in a car parked near the residence of Prime Minister Thaksin Shinawatra. Roads around the site were temporarily closed during the rigorous investigation.

It's not as bad as Canberra suggests it is far bloody worse, and people who constantly deny the slow slide of Thailand into the mire, are deluding themselves.

As seen from afar this little powerplay from the "temporary" government smells of foul play. What benefit is there to appoint these miltary officers to all provinces unless it is to thwart any rumblings of another coup, by an increased miltary presence throughout the country, or by splitting up groups of officers who may themselves be a threat to the CNS.

Whatever the reason, it seems like one more little step towards big trouble in Thailand.

Doesn't this just mean that the taxi stands will not be allowed on the footpaths... it says nothing about them actually riding on footpaths.

Remember to always look both ways when you step out of that 7-11..

Womble..

I agree with almost everything you've said and it never occurred to me that the gov't would be playing the futures market, but it seems so likely I can't beleive I never thought of it before.

And yes the elite of Thailand are greedy thugs who care very little for their own country.

From the Bangkok Post:

Minister cool on IT

Speaking at the opening of the exhibition, the minister said that it was wrong of Thai people to admire modern technology, which was not developed by Thai people. "It is a fake development because the country is now getting worse as almost everything at the exhibition here is imported and nothing is made by Thais," he said.

The minister stated that "Thai computers" should mean Thais producing component parts, not just assembling, and that they should also design the products.

"It is sad that today we cannot find any Thai products. The technology show here provides foreigners an opportunity to take money from Thai people. To be truly proud, it should show technology that has been developed by Thais," the ICT Minister said.

It seems to me that the minister was indicting the Thai people for being "lazy" and relying too heavily on foreign imports, which is certainly true and can only be a good thing if in the future it leads to improvements in the Thai economy through internal investment.

Thailand is a massive consumer of IT and a negligible producer of IT products, but this is also the case for 90% of the countries in the world, there are very few nations which are volume producers of IT products.

Does that mean that all of our countries should be as ashamed as the Minister is of the Thai people?? Of course not, it's a ridiculous statement from someone who has virtually no understanding of how the IT economy works globally. It does not matter who makes and designs the components, what matters is what is done with these components, how they are used and assembled to create devices that everyone wants.

Certainly companies like Apple and Microsoft mostly use off the shelf components in their products, this does not stop them from innovating. In fact their innovations closely follow breakthroughs from other manufacturers. Thailand could very easily do exactly the same thing if they had the will to do so. There is no need to actually design and develop component parts. The Minister does not seem to understand this basic concept.

As for software, well, here there is no reason at all why Thailand cannot compete, I'm sure there are very many talented Thais residing in Thailand who could create from scratch world class products, yet they do not. Why?? Because there has been no incentive, Thailands economy is a smash and grab style, there is virtually zero forward planning and/or long term strategy that does not involve shaking down foreigners as they step off the plane. This is as far as the fat cats can see, it's easy money.

Thailand is in a mess and it will not move forward one step until such time as the powers that be turn their focus onto the long term future of Thailand, one that is not almost wholly reliant on the cascade effects of mass tourism.

I also think the Minister should reconsider when he says things like "The technology show here provides foreigners an opportunity to take money from Thai people", a truly gobsmacking idiotic thing to say!!

Had this in Chiang Mai recently next to the night bazaar.... and it was fantastic, one of the best things I've tasted in a long while. I tried it again around town , but nothing was quite as good as that first one which was a much darker colour than the others. It had this incredible aftertaste, something I sort of know but can't put my finger on.

Looked on the internet and they all look a bit anaemic, anyone got a good recipe for me??

What is it, Flint?

It's a rich Burmese style curry.... I need my fix!!!

Ourmanflint,

I just read the other translations and I agree that the feel is quite different and I too prefer the use of the word blessing....when protection is used I kept wondering what I was being protected from.

Also, in reading this Sutta it seemed to me that the Buddha's response has a progression to it...it starts by saying to not associate with fools and finishes up with the attainment of Nibanna.....inbetween these two it seems that the Buddha is layingout a likely path of stages in life that one might go through when one is progressing through the Dhamma....what do you think? is this plausible?

Chownah

Nice idea... it does read like a guide to life doesn't it?? It seems quite logical now you've said it.

Had this in Chiang Mai recently next to the night bazaar.... and it was fantastic, one of the best things I've tasted in a long while. I tried it again around town , but nothing was quite as good as that first one which was a much darker colour than the others. It had this incredible aftertaste, something I sort of know but can't put my finger on.

Looked on the internet and they all look a bit anaemic, anyone got a good recipe for me??

Hey Chownah

I like your view of the life of purity, and of course my interpretation is just that, my own take on things.

The sutta is the same one, but for some reason the translation you picked gives it a completely new twist, I can't see how "protection" and "blessing" are interchangeable, it feels like a different sutta altogether. If you look at the other translations, the sutta takes on a whole new feel, this is ther version I was referring to.

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Very good Chownah

I do appreciate your much greater knowledge of the scriptures. I can see how " a life of purity" can be easily interpreted as promoting the secluded life.

Is a life of purity one of seclusion? maybe, or maybe it refers to purity of spirit, a life without wrong thoughts or wrong actions, it does not necessarily mean seclusion and "purity" as in life without distraction as would be the case of the ascetic.

This makes more sense when the following sentence is spoken... "for the welfare and happiness of the multitude, out of compassion for the world, for the benefit, well being, and happiness of gods and men."

How cutting yourself off has that effect I am not sure, but living a life of purity in the world, well then you would be visible and available and leading by example "for the welfare and happiness of the multitude, out of compassion for the world, for the benefit, well being, and happiness of gods and men."

Also while this quote "As long as the monks see their own benefit in wilderness dwellings, their growth can be expected, not their decline."

certainly ascertains that living the life of the ascetic can have benefit, it also specifically states that it is not for everyone!! and this does make sense. What is right for one person is not neccesarily right for everyone.

The Mangala Sutta states many, ways to live ones life and living the "holy Life" as being of the highest blessing is just touched upon once, barely. It would seem from this that Buddha did not see this as the only way or even the better way to lives one life, in fact the opposite is so clearly evident.

"to reside in a suitable locality" "righteous conduct" "the helping of relatives" many things to be lauded, but nowhere is there seclusion. I have always felt Buddhism to be about the joy of life, it cannot be about self fulfillment and locking ones self away from that very life.

I've never seen a scripture where the Buddha taught that monks should be active in society....seem like he was always saying they should seek seclusion....and that they should continue until the end is reached....the end being the cessation of dukkha once and for all.

Chownah

Then what on earth have you been reading all this time???

Surely one of the central elements of the `Sangha, is that monks should devote their lives "for the good of the many, for the happiness of the many", they can't do that sat on their backsides trying to reach a higher plain of existence.

Seclusion is not supposed to be the be all and end all to attaining a greater level of understanding, why are people so attuned to that particular facet of Buddhist doctrine? Surely you don't belive that is the only way to progress in life??