ourmanflint

I don't want to get into the debate about how this should be resolved, only to say, that the result in Aceh whatever the process was Sharia law, and those non muslims living there have been threatened with jail for believing in anything but Islam. Is this a good result??

What are you on about?

Which non-Muslims? Where were non-Muslims threatened to be jailed for "believing in anything but Islam"?

You may find out that in strict Islamic societies religious minorities can life their life, and that Islam protects their rights. In Iran there is a large Christian minority which is allowed to follow their religion, and can brew and drink alcohol, in Afghanistan throughout the Taleban years there were foreigners from all different NGOs and the UN living and working there.

I Malaysia Sharia laws only count for Muslims and not for non-Muslims.

What is the problem if Muslims from the three provinces would choose Sharia for their own community within those three provinces? If it brings peace, so what?

JAKARTA POST 28 September 2002 "Aceh to implement caning punishment"

In line with sharia law, the Aceh legislative council is proposing that caning be one of the punishments for people who tempt Muslims to desert religious teachings.

A special team set up by the council is drafting the bylaw in response to Law No. 44/1999 on Aceh's special status and Law No. 18/2002 on special autonomy for Aceh.

Chairman of the special team Azhari Basar said that caning would be imposed on those who propagated beliefs other than Islam to Muslims in the province. "Those who violate the ruling will face a maximum jail term of two years and a maximum fine of Rp 6 million or 10 strokes of the cane," he told Antara.

Azhari said that according to Article 17 of the draft, anyone who skips Friday prayers three times in a row without an acceptable reason would be fined a maximum of Rp 2 million, six months in jail or three strokes of the cane.

"Caning also applies to those who open their food stalls during Ramadhan (fasting month)," he said. Food stall owners who sell food, beverages or cigarettes publicly or secretly during the holy month will be fined a maximum of Rp 4 million, spend one year in jail or receive five strokes of the cane.

However, it is not clear who is in charge of carrying out the caning punishment: the police or the sharia police.

I re-read the article and it is open to interpretation I grant you.

I still think you need to wake up to the reality of modern Islam.

Maybe best is to be glad that at least there is no fighting in Aceh anymore, and let them conduct their business they way how they want to, and work towards a similar solution in Thailand. The important bit is not how they choose to deal with their affairs, but that the fighting comes to a stop ASAP, and with whatever method that works. Aceh so far has worked very well.

OMFG!!!

If there is anyone arguing for the sake of it, it has to be you... what a ridiculous statement to make. Fighting is nothing compared to a forever in an Islamic state, where every Buddhist ( actually every non muslim would be more correct ) living in Pattani would have their lives changed forever and not for the better. Please think about the reality of your wishes before you post such nonsense. After all it won't be you that has to deal with your peaceful solution will it??

And no, Aceh is not off topic - Aceh is in many ways closely related to Pattani, has many parallels, and the Aceh solution is seen by many the only way out of the mess in the south some time in the future.

I don't want to get into the debate about how this should be resolved, only to say, that the result in Aceh whatever the process was Sharia law, and those non muslims living there have been threatened with jail for believing in anything but Islam. Is this a good result??

You should always keep your eyes on the prize I think and the end result of this situation in Pattani is what exactly??

As far as I can see there was no "solution" in Aceh as you put it, the fact is the Islamic fundamentalists got everything they wanted. So the only result that you get "across the table" is a 100% compromise from those opposing these Islamists.

Do you really want that in part or whole for a part of Thailand?

Becuse the new Visa Law its time to relocated from Thailand !

I need some ides to countrys to move to whit okey living standards simular to here. . .

greatfull for all replys !

Anywhere that doesn't require a literacy check beforehand might do.

Can I suggest Iceland. I know somebody who went there once and never came back so it must be good.

Got some nice volcanoes and night life's great in Wreckyour-whatever and the booze is really expensive Might help "kmart" sort out his litracy problem too.

Andrew

No you may not!!!

beer at $20 pint is no joke and not the kind of place your average TV member would be happy...

As for China... yes it is fantastic, but food is awful compared to Thailand, very, very cheap though! And if you are looking to pick up a girl in China, don't go to a bar, get a haircut... for real!!

Belize is beautiful but very poor, and within 10 minutes of arriving in Belize city I was mugged... bad rep is deserved.

After much thought... really!

I can find no rational way to justify piracy as theft.

It is not theft, it never was theft, this is a term those companies involved have incorrectly asserted, when in actual fact nothing of the sort is actually happening.

And contrary to anyones assertions here, it is not like stealing a laptop, car, loaf of bread or anything else tangible and real. A correct analogy would be to say that someone broke into your house and copied your the way you organised your furniture or the cans of food in your cupboards..... plainly nonsense.

Computer code is not a tangible item, intellectual property laws have been defined mainly by huge multinationals to include this kind of appropriation by the public as theft. But this is wrong!!

I've been looking for the reference, but I seem to remember that Siam was the name the Burmese had for Thailand (Siam, "the land of the White Elephant"), and when signing some treaty or other the British used it to refer to "Thailand", or Muang Thai which it was then called by its Thai inhabitants.

anyway bottom line is i have hung out with thai guys in bars for years and i think for the most part it is fine, but if some problem does happen, swallow your pride, apologize, lose face decadently, and get the f*** out. if one punch gets thrown that is probably the end of ya because they will all jump in and try to kill you.

I think you've hit the nail on the head, allbeit from a different angle...

If something goes just that little bit too far like throwing a punch, then the likelihood is you're in big trouble.

I can honestly say that this sickens me to the core, and ThaiGoon, I'm glad you are so proud of defending your country without thinking that maybe just maybe in this instance, this kind of behaviour is not something you should even consider defending. Almost everyone here has said the same thing, mess with a thai and you'll more than likely end up dead... how cool to have people think that of you, we should all be very careful shouldn't we just in case we upset some sensitive soul!!

I really hope that foreigners wise up to the dangers in Thailand and then go and spend their hard earned money anywhere else, Thailand is just not that special that it can keep on doing whatever it wants forever.

Does that mean you won't be coming back?

No it means that I won't be hanging out on Koh Phangan or Samui in the foreseeable future... then again I might not ever come back, we'll see!

I feel sorry for the small businesses in Thailand, having to buy a separate copy of Windows for each computer they have.

That is just taking the piss.... and is tantamount to theft on the part of Microsoft. I can see no reason whatsoever how this practice has anything to do with IP and everything to do with robbing blind as many people as possible

One copy fine, 25 copies <deleted> Microsoft!!

Ive been in fights in Haad Rin 2times.

1. I danced with a girl in Cactus. Her thai ex-boyfriend didnt like this. She said "dont worry, I stay phangan long time, everyone know me" to make me feel safer afterwards. I decided not to talk to her anymore. I value my life.

2. I was going down from the toilet in Cactus bar. A Thai guy thought I was a friend of a Israeli guy they were fighting with which obviously was a good enogh reason for them to fight me too.

Its a dangerous place, but a wicked party!

Yes both the cactus bar and the Drop Inn are filled with the dregs of Koh Phangan, and they have gotten away with behaving like crazy thugs for far too long.

I never ever go there if at all possible, bring back the Big Boom!!

anyway bottom line is i have hung out with thai guys in bars for years and i think for the most part it is fine, but if some problem does happen, swallow your pride, apologize, lose face decadently, and get the f*** out. if one punch gets thrown that is probably the end of ya because they will all jump in and try to kill you.

I think you've hit the nail on the head, allbeit from a different angle...

If something goes just that little bit too far like throwing a punch, then the likelihood is you're in big trouble.

I can honestly say that this sickens me to the core, and ThaiGoon, I'm glad you are so proud of defending your country without thinking that maybe just maybe in this instance, this kind of behaviour is not something you should even consider defending. Almost everyone here has said the same thing, mess with a thai and you'll more than likely end up dead... how cool to have people think that of you, we should all be very careful shouldn't we just in case we upset some sensitive soul!!

I really hope that foreigners wise up to the dangers in Thailand and then go and spend their hard earned money anywhere else, Thailand is just not that special that it can keep on doing whatever it wants forever.

Siam was the name we British gave to an unwilling Thailand..

It does sound more romantic for want of a better description, but I think it is inappropriate.

To all those that believe that Thailand will never change, may I remind you that there once was a time when no Thai however offended would dare to attack and kill a tourist.

So yes, Thailand has already changed and IMHO it can change again, it just needs a nudge in the right direction from within.

I don't want to give up on that hope just yet..

Quite the optimist eh? Nice to see but extremely unrealistic when considering human nature. Please name me one country that does not have murder. I don't think its possible and as long as we are human, we are going to kill each other.

Optimist yes!!

Not so long ago in Thailand attacks like this were really, really rare, now they are much more commonplace so Thailand has changed. And attacking a tourist was a very serious crime and seriously punished, nowadays it's no more than a PR operation to placate the ever so important "quality tourist" we hear so much about.

Quality tourists that I doubt would want to come to a place where there was the slightest chance of being murdered over an argument... Thailand needs to shape up.. end of story!

And JD I left Thailand last month... for no particular reason other than to put some more nuts in the bank!!

To all those that believe that Thailand will never change, may I remind you that there once was a time when no Thai however offended would dare to attack and kill a tourist.

So yes, Thailand has already changed and IMHO it can change again, it just needs a nudge in the right direction from within.

I don't want to give up on that hope just yet..

The only thing we know for sure is that one Israeli is dead and that a group of Thais killed him!

Why that happened is up for conjecture!

that is the correct answer, but for some unknown reason some people will never accept that this is the way of the world in thailand. and think that they should change to suit all the other nations.

i mean if you dont cause problems you wont get problems most of the time.

some falang think that it should work the same as it does in farangland but we know much different dont we.

i say its bollicks, and falang should just behave themselves.

Terry ...

that is the exact attitude I am talking about! You excuse it (yes...excuse!) by saying that this is Thailand and we should all go along with it. I am very sad that there are so many people like yourself that think this way, it really isn't helpful as the result is an ongoing ever increasing spiral of violence, especially against foreigners.

And if you had no intention of making an excuse for rapists of whatever nationality ( thank you SBK ) then why go ahead and point out your observations??

SBK, I completely agree with you that the young male population of Haad Rin is not solely composed of those born on the island, but many of them are! And yes it has certainly attracted the criminal class who see an easy target in the many tourists going crazy every month.

But yet again any attempt to excuse this as "this is Thailand" is wholly wrong, don't dodge the bullet! Everyone in Thailand has to play their part in vigourously voicing their displeasure at such atrocious behaviour, and that goes from people like yourself involved in local business and tourism up to the village and island heads, and all the way up to and including the King himself. Everybody should be trying to change Thailand and the Thai attitude that perpetuates this sudden and often lethal violence.

Do you really want things to stay the same??

I think we need to seperate the behaviour of Israelis and the behaviour of Thai locals on islands like Koh Phangan.

There are far too many people here on these boards who after spending many years in Thailand, make the typical excuses for the behaviour of Thai locals. There seems to be an attitude that only if we had all known better that Thais are on a short fuse then these things would not happen.

I've been many times to Phangan and have had a great time, but I did find the behaviour of many,many local Thai men abhorrent, these really are the worst kind of scum, and yes, they have all been drawn by the goings on at Haad Rin.

Please let's not make the mistake of saying that it is partly our faults for antagonising these thugs. It is not acceptable. This behaviour is not unique to Thailand, but it is quite unique for a supposedly top tourist destination. Everyone that makes excuses for these rapists and murderers are also part of the problem, it is not reasonable to say this is just part of the Thai psychy and we should all play along.

And no matter how many half-naked girls I saw at the FMP, I was never tempted to rape someone... so making any attempt to excuse the behaviour of people who do is really just pathetic.... Terry!!

Excellent I think this is what the IT minister was saying... that Thai people should pay vast amounts more money to foreign devils for using their non open source products.

Bravo!!

Without Islam at its core the conflict would have fizzled out long ago, or in fact it would have barely raised it's head, as someone else has already said, there is a striking predictability to certain aspects of these conflicts whenever Islam is involved.

right! as in Northern Ireland i suppose? no more problems since they kicked out the Wahhabis and knocked down all madrasas and mosques in Belfast.

i might be sad fellow but at 1.92 metres i don't consider myself "little".

you Sir are in my (not so) humble view an uneducated clown

Thanks for my upgrade to knight...

Satire really is beyond you so why not just stay clear of it!!! Good chap!!

Either somebody in Thailand will take decisive measures to take complete military control over provinces, interrupt money supply from wahabists, close Universities and religious schools controlled and funded by wahabists, or deep South will go along the Chechen route with clear ramifications for the rest of Thailand.

how right you are! it is a well known fact that the Wahhabis financed Hitler, the japanese attack on Pearl Harbour and of course they are responsible that global warming will sooner or later flood Bangla Desh and southern Florida. not yet proven (but that's only a matter of time) is that Wahhabis generate tsunamis.

Yet again you hold your humour in such high regard....

What a sad little fellow!!

Is it still stupid of me to think this is about Islam?? All this talk of different sects within Islam and what and why they are doing, and yet there are some Mai Khrap in particular who seem to think this is all nothing to do with Islam...

Without Islam at its core the conflict would have fizzled out long ago, or in fact it would have barely raised it's head, as someone else has already said, there is a striking predictability to certain aspects of these conflicts whenever Islam is involved.

I suppose that I have only spent a few weeks in the south and therefore most of my info comes from various news organizations, but I find it impossible to believe that without the ideology behind the conflict, we (Thailand) would never be in the situation it is in just now.

I can see from way over here in the UK, that the troubles in Pattani are not getting any better, but they most definitely are polarising, and thay are doing so across religious divides. This is about Islamism. Nothing else...

it is a well known fact that distance, an armchair to read a newspaper and watch television (or walk a few paces to use the internet) is the basis to render a reliable expertise on various problems existing on this planet.

take me for example. i am a german, living in Thailand but i am extremely qualified to lecture about the influence the Vatican and catholicism had and still has on the century old tribal problems between Tivs and Idomas in Benue State, Nigeria. i am also an expert how islamism affects the animal husbandry in the southern part on Mongolia. if you have any questions, please don't hesitate to ask.

ego te absolvo "ourmanflint"!

I'm sure at some point during the day you think your logic is flawless and that your wit only adds to the obvious high regard in which you hold your thoughts.

Unfortunately I see neither, maybe me being all the way here must account for that too!!

You said it all when you said you were in the UK. I am in all likelihood the leading American expert on Islam in Thailand, Cambodia, and Laos. I have spent more time with these people than any other westerner including a 2 year investigation into the so called Cambodian/Thailand Terrorist Connection which I concluded was total bull Shitt. For most who remember, shortly after Hambali was arrested in Ayutthaya there was a crackdown on Muslims in Cambodia sponsored and financed by the good people who brought us the Vietnam War. Many Muslim teachers were rounded up and deported and the shells of what were once schools are now just another desperate promise shattered by office workers who in far away climate controlled environments have tried and convicted men they have never met and did what Ronald Reagen would have never done. That is supply the Hun Sen government with millions of dollars to victimize the Chams who survived both Henry Kissinger's illegal carpet bombing and the genocidal maniac Brother Number One.

Ronald Reagen did spend untold millions keeping the Khmer Rouge in power though for one reason, his belief that the enemy of my enemy is my friend which is far from taking the moral high ground, the direction I try to stay in within these musings. The Muslims of Central Thailand only want peace in the South and a little sense of justice concerning disappeared Muslims like Somchai who is the most well known case. However the Southern Muslims have been pushed over the line and no longer support the government as it exists there now. While there is much sympathy throughout the Muslims communities I can assure you the Muslims I know are busy working 16 or more hours a day to put food into the mouths of their children when they are not praying and have no time for such luxury as war which is reserved for politicians, their bean counters, and pawns until they manipulate the situation to the point that food is disrupted. Thats when things get interesting or like we say back home, "Get to the nut cutting", Have a nice day.

I never claimed to have more OTG experience, I was trying to say that sometimes distance provides objectivity. If you could keep your expertise to the matter at hand instead of meandering across the world, I would be happy for you try and explain why what is happening without recourse to sentiment.

This is about Islamism. Nothing else...

Separatism. For ages they've been fighting for the Kingdom of Pattani.

When you say "nothing else" you deny their nationalism. Islam is a big part of it, of course, but there's also a claim to the land, they also have their separate language and their own traditions, and their own version of history.

They don't want to be Malaysians, btw.

I'm sorry but I think you are wrong!!

Why did the insurgents kick off after almost 200 years of relative peace and stability??Why.. because of the likes of Al-Qaeda and Jemaah Islamiyah.

The excuse is the separatism, the reality is Islamism.

Don't be fooled by any other rhetoric.

This is about Islamism. Nothing else...

This isn't very objective either.

Would you care to elaborate?? Just what is this about then??

Things aren't always as black and white as some would have you to believe.

Link to article in the Nation

Mai Krap

I find it hard to tell wether you are genuinely concerned about the the spin being put on the problems in the south by the likes of analyst Dr. Abuza and others, or are you just another yellow belly apologist for the Islamists in Pattani!

You offer much to debate, but really all you end up doing is confusing the issue by clouding disparate problems, and like the islamists you try to make one problem seem to be something else. Your anti-spin of the situation in Pattani seems to come from some innate sense that only you are right and no one outside of the area could possibly see things more clearly and objectively than you yourself. I can't say this is a very wise stand to take, as it often is the case that an objective view is needed more than a "gut" view from those such as yourself. It is all too easy to become entrenched in local everday life to see above the troubles and the effect they have.

I can see from way over here in the UK, that the troubles in Pattani are not getting any better, but they most definitely are polarising, and thay are doing so across religious divides. This is about Islamism. Nothing else...

Islamic factions have had very great success in getting what they want through violence over the past 60 years, and they have learned to be vigilant and never ceasing in moving towards what it is they want, a total Islamic state. Violence in Islam has become an acceptable tool, it has become accepted as the will of god, why else would these Islamists be on such a ludicrous quest.?

If you cannot accept that this violence has it's root in Islam and that a peaceful outcome to this without massive counter violence on the part of the Thai government is possible, then you severely misunderstand the iron will of these Islamists in their determination to bring about the changes they want to impose on all those in the area.