Tod Daniels

The US is about as likely to intervene in this "two kids on a school playground fighting over lunch money" type of isolated violence situation as winged monkeys have the chance of flying out of my ass.

For the 'thick' that would be FAR LESS THAN ZERO percent.

I think the thai redz and the PTP totally over estimate their importance on the world stage to the point they first petitioned the UN for frickin' "peace keeping troops". It took the UN years of hand sitting to go into places in Africa where GENOCIDE was happening on a MASSIVE scale. To even begin to think they're just gonna fly in the planes full o' troops over here to this squabble is ludicrous.

Oh dam_n, I see the EU petition didn't go over too well either.

Perhaps Raul Castro, Hun Sen, Kim Jong-il, the ruling junta in Burma, or maybe Hugo Chavez are the next on the list to petition for intervention. Keep working your way down the countries and you'll eventually find someone who cares enough. Or not. ..

The mind wobbles at the self importance the reds seem to have.

Mazeltov is now claiming that the "junta" put PPP into power by bullying the smaller parties into joining a PPP coalition?

Not even the Dems ever suggested something that ludicrous! (In fact the Dems just bit the bullet and became the opposition)

edit --- corrected the Freudian slip I made when typing M's name .....

(In fact the Dems just bit the bullet and became the opposition)

Which is something the PTP has refused to do ever since the Demz got a Lower House majority; due to the PPP’s former comrade in arms; Newin Chidchob' nearly 40 MP's switching sides to the Demz camp.

It's totally the "Friends of Newin" group which brought about this current government coalition, just as he did for Samak/Somchai and the PPP, (by the way this is ALL post coup). Don't EVER under estimate the pull Newin Chidchob (as well as his father Chai) have with MP's in their 'stable'.

That is the 'swing vote'. It is almost a certainty that which ever side they swing to will hold a majority of Lower House seats and by that fact get to be the 'current' government. Newin (although banned from politics for 5 years) is clearly the wild card and/or loose cannon in all of this and HE knows it only too well.

PTP doesn't even run a 'shadow government' like most opposition parties have done. Instead they boycott readings of legislation, stall with endless debates, and do everything they can do to bring the wheels of progress to a halt as far as ANY of the positive changes the current government is or has tried to do. PTP prefers to just whine about the injustice of it all and sow more unrest.

It is sour grapes, because when Newin was on their side, they had the 'mandate' to run the government (via a majority of MP's in the Lower House thru coalition). However when the Demz did EXACTLY the same thing, suddenly it's "foul", "no-fair", you have "no mandate from the people", this government is "not legitimate".

Sorry but the PEOPLE voted for AND elected EVERY MP sitting in the Lower House now. Those MP's are entrusted to do what they see fit for the benefit of their constitutients.

If those proverbial 'people' don't like what the MP's they voted for are doing. Hmm, next time (which last time I checked is about the end of 2011), perhaps they should vote for someone else, and/or don't be so quick to vote like the 'nai' or puu-yai-baan' in your village tells you to.

In other news; Today the soldiers stationed near my apartment at the Asok BTS/MRT and the Robinsons/Sheraton sky-bridge who don't have TAV-21's now seem to be armed only with single shot break-barrel shotguns and the earlier pump action ones I saw at first are no where to be seen. (Actually I did see an ancient Remington pump which looked as if it was dragged behind a motocycle to get it here ). ..

Sadly (for the soldiers) the type of shotgun they are now armed with has a really slow rate of fire in the way of 'rounds per minute' compared to pump or semi auto crowd control shotguns (the most modern even have 20 round drum magazines). The soldiers carrying shot guns still appear to have the same break down of ammo; the hard single rubber bullets, and some type of shot loaded shells; which I can't tell if it's lead or rubber buckshot.

It is my experience when confronted with poorly trained and/or badly coordinated crowds; if you drop a few people thru selective targeting the rest will scatter. This fact was clearly shown here when the thai soldiers met a force with far less fire power capabilities but with superior coordination in their method of attack on April 10. Once that command/control center Humvee was hit; the video(s) of the subsequent retreat of the soldiers who discarded their gunz, ammo, flash/bangs, body armor, shields, and almost everything as they fled is a lesson for the thai military to remember.

It is puzzling to me; if in fact they're arming soldiers with shotguns and NOT wanting to kill people outright, why don’t the thais use the so-called 'bean-bag' rounds so prevalent in the US/UK for less-lethal or non-lethal crowd control? The newest generation of that type is called a "sperm round" (because they have a cloth 'tail' that stabilizes their flight). They're filled with small diameter lead shot, wrapped in ballistic cloth. They'll knock a person off their feet from quite a good distance with a thigh shot, and certainly knock the wind out of someone with a center mass body shot.

That type of round is by far the least lethal shotgun rounds out there for crowd control. Once they hit almost all their kinetic energy is imparted to the target and the spent projectile just drops to the ground. They are designed to be direct fired selectively at individual targets, meaning you actually aim at the opponent, as opposed to most recommended methods of firing rubber bullets where you are supposed to hit the ground a in front of an opponent and 'skip or ricochet' the round into their lower body. Although the shot gun rubber bullet can be direct fired, in short range confrontations, as "JohnLeech" said 'dead is dead'.

Given that thailand has NO armed forces actually trained in crowd dispersal and/or control, using soldiers for a task they are not trained for is fraught with peril and carries with it a high degree of error. (As in the US soldiers dismal failure in crowd control after our 'liberation of Baghdad' and the rampant looting, burning and pillaging which ensued).

As an aside, in rebuttal that the solid rubber rounds for shotguns are 'sabot rounds'; ANYTHING which wraps a projectile is technically a 'sabot'. Source; http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sabot Notice the picture of the shotgun shell showing the wad cup as an example of a sabot. FWIW most rubber bullets for a 12 gauge shotgun are around .65-.68 caliber, and most 12 gauge shotguns are bored from about .73 to over .80 caliber, necessitating the need for something called a sabot to fill the void.

BACK ON TOPIC: I did ask one older soldier who seemed to be coordinating the young troops near me when we might expect something like a crack down. He said, right now they're on containment duty only, BUT when I see the razor wire and orange barricades block off Sukhumvit AND my cell phone can't get a signal, that I should return HOME IMMEDIATELY.

And now back to the pissing match already in progress

There is a visa company which leaves in BIG busses (depending on the number of people going) or ultra modern, foreign sized mini-vans from Sukhumvit 71 twice a week, and they have an 'all in fare'. Transpo, accomodations, some meals, Lao visa, and a double entry thai tourist visa. They leave at night, I think 7:30-8PM and arrive at the border around 5:30-6AM the next morning. The bus stop in Nakhon Ratchasima (Korat), Udon Thani, and Nong Khai, so about every 2-3 hours along the way for 15 minute breaks.

I'm sure if you called the owner whose name is Phillip and is (thai-nese) he'll tell you if you can get a Non-B up there or not. He's quite savvy about the visa situation in Vientiane. He's got the tourist visa dealy down to a well oiled machine, and the people I've sent to him had good experiences, as did I went I went to get my single entry non-o based on retirement.

P/M me if you're interested and I'll give you his website and phone numbers.

As another option you could take the sleeper train straight to Nong Khai and then the other train which crosses friendship bridge into Lao.

Changwattana is FAR from the hel_l-hole you allude to. In fact it's the opposite; being a brand spanking new, ultra modern, GIANT government office complex the size of a soccer stadium chock full of bank branches, TWO food courts, a 7/11 an S&P, Chesters, copy/photo shops, even a hair dresser and a coupla clothing shops too.

I will concur with the O/P in regard to Thanon Changwattana. It is a total cluster-fuc_k traffic wise, especially right there at Soi 7 where you turn to Thai Immigrations. They have the traffic lights installed but NOT working forcing one lane to go way down the street pull a u-turn and come back to get into the soi. It took us longer to get out of the government complex and to the freeway, than almost the entire trip back into downtown Bangkok.

I went there Tuesday with two people to get them extensions of stay based on retirement as well as do 90 day reporting for some people too lazy to make the trip out themselves. Less than 20 minutes later BOTH people had secured their yearly extensions of stay based on retirement, and were off waiting for their re-entry permits. It was about as painless a process as can be expected dealing with the thai government employees. The 90 day reporting took me all of 2 minutes and that was for FIVE different passports (none of them mine ).

I have done a few extensions of stay based on marriage to a thai national, and all those guys had to show their lease agreement; to prove they could indeed get the extension at Changwattana (now that you must go to the office assigned to your address). They had to show a map to their house, as well as needing all the previously mentioned documentation for that type of extension. The officials were not as fast as they are when issuing retirement extensions, but they both flew thru within 30-40 minutes, with no additional paperwork required.

Better to go with TOOO much documentation, than not enough forcing another trip out there. A little searching of this forum can give you quite the heads up of what can or might be required.

Sorry you had problems, but like other posters pointed out, confronting the immigrations officials (unless you can actually converse with them in more than 2-word-tourist-thai), is most definitely a path you don't want to go down. Demanding to see the 'rule-book' is tantamount to being set on a hoop-jumping 'extra document' acquiring wild goose chase. They can and will make your experience much less enjoyable. I'm only saying the individual officers are fairly autonomous in their ability to approve or deny on a whim.

It is my experience in both accompanying as well as watching all too many of foreigners parade thru the old Suan Plu and the new Changwattana that ANY display of negative emotion and/or anger is quite counter-productive to the entire process.

I also concur with other posters about the outlying immigrations offices being much more finicky in their interpretation of the rules. I guess a little training BEFORE they opened would have gone a long way.

Yours was an interesting post from someone actually "on the ground". Why spoil it by introducing unnecessary detail on a subject you clearly know nothing about?

Belive me I have shot ALL the above mentioned weapons and you are talkin' soo far outta your ass as to be NOT even funny.

12 gauge slugs have a very slow FPS velocity, actually they are a much BETTER crowd crontol weapon as they selectively target people. And ALL 12 gauge "rubber rounds" are "sabot", (go Google it) meaning that they have a paper and/or plastic wrapping which falls away as the round travels out of the barrel, meaning ONLY the rubber hits the target, NOTHING else unless fired from less than 10M, when you get everything in your face!!

I've shot more rounds than you would ever care to count, at both paper targets, as well as living beings. They are what I say they are. Don’t ever dispute me about ammo again.

Like I said go Google it yourself if you don't know first hand. ..

Weng looked at a complete loss for words in his interview on TV this lunchtime, even he couldn't justify such idiotic red behaviour.

Stupid is as stupid does.

Here's one just to keep the poster known as 'bkkjames" interested in my posting penchants ;

As Robert Downey Jr. playing the black Sergeant Lincoln Osiris told Ben Stiller playing Tugg Speedman about Tugg's flop movie “Simple Jack” in the ‘cult classic’ movie “Tropic Thunder”;

"Everybody knows you never go full retard"

"Check it out.. Dustin Hoffman, 'Rain Man,' look retarded, act retarded, not retarded. Counted toothpicks, cheated cards. Autistic, sho'. Not retarded.

You know Tom Hanks, 'Forrest Gump.' Slow, yes. Retarded, maybe. Braces on his legs. But he charmed the pants off Nixon and won a ping-pong competition. That ain't retarded.

Peter Sellers, "Being There." Infantile, yes. Retarded, no.

You went full retard, man. Never go full retard.

You don't buy that? Ask Sean Penn, 2001, "I Am Sam." Remember? Went full retard, went home empty handed.."

I think ‘whacky’ Weng went full retard this morning and is gonna go home 'empty handed' too, (possibly with them cuffed together as well.)

And before any witty reader of T/V comments, YES I put this post in another related thread as well. if you don't like it, please put me on ignore.

I think it might behoove all the red supporters to rethink the “intensify pressure” mind-set. I just came from chatting with the soldiers at the mouth of my Soi (Suk-Soi 12) as well as on all the crossovers, and the Asok skyway.

They are VERY WELL armed with TAR-21 assault rifles and short barreled 12 gauge 'riot' shotguns. From the shotgun rounds visible in their bandoliers slung around their bodies, it would appear, they have both rubber 'sabot' rounds (most of the rounds) as well what looked like buckshot too (many less rounds). Although IMO solid lead slugs with their low velocity would be a better choice for limiting collateral damage in a crowd as opposed to the “spray and pray” pattern of buckshot.

The ones with Tavor-21's have their vests stuffed with full mags, as well carrying many smoke and/or flash-bang (concussion) grenades too. They are really ready for anything which is good, as you can't predict what will happen. Way better for them to be prepared for ANY contingency then not prepared like before.

They also have about a dozen or more of the waist high orange street barricades (the kind you put in place and fill with water which has clips to hold barb-wire). They are placed in front of the Times Square building along with about 12 rolls coiled of razor wire.

I think this is a good form of 'containment' when the time comes to push the dwindling mob from their Rachaprasong ‘moo-ban’; close down the roads, corral 'em in, keep reinforcements and other out. Finally the soldiers are exhibiting crowd dispersal 101 techniques and tactics.

With that being said, the soldiers in this area are semi-celebrities to say the least. In just in the 20 minutes I chatted with them, I saw foreign tourists ask to be photographed standing next to the soldiers at least 70 times. (The soldiers should charge $$ for this, like the tourist area street bug sellers do!! )

It also appears that when soldiers and police broke the up-country barricades to get thru, the reds cried foul and are going to fill assault charges against them.. Wait, aren't the redz the one breaking the law in the first place by blocking PUBLIC highways with their b/s barricades? Or am I mistaken and any mob can block a highway and conduct searches of vehicles? Although I just read the Thanyaburi Court sentenced 11 red shirts to 15 days in jail for setting up check points along Pholyothin Rd; and they were jailed immediately!! So progress in the renegade blockadez.

That's almost as comical as ‘whacky’ Dr. Weng’s statement on the red stage this morning about the red leaders NOT approving the blocking of the BTS Chidlom station with tires. Wait a second, isn't the BTS Chidlom station inside the red moo-ban area? How did 'fake redz' carry frickin' truck tires UP onto the platform with NO 'real redz' seeing it or even questioning what they were doing. Strange that Weng said they should remove the tires, but it took another 2 hours for the message to travel from the stage to the station. Even though you can clearly hear what any redz speaker on stage says when standing in the station itself. The mind wobbles at the insanity of the red leaders mentality in this fracas.

I commend the thai government for playing them with kid-gloves so far. Sadly, for the redz, (or as they're now known, the color-less, non-privileged shirtz) and really everyone involved in this; I think it the gloves gonna come off quite soon.

I think it might behoove all the red supporters to ‘brace for a crackdown”, or better yet, head for parts unknown. I just came from chatting with the soldiers at the mouth of my Soi (Suk-Soi 12) as well as on all the crossovers, and the Asok skyway.

They are VERY WELL armed with TAR-21 assault rifles and short barreled 12 gauge 'riot' shotguns. From the shotgun rounds visible in their bandoliers slung around their bodies, it would appear, they have both rubber 'sabot' rounds (most of the rounds) as well what looked like buckshot too (many less rounds). Although IMO solid lead slugs with their low velocity would be a better choice for limiting collateral damage in a crowd as opposed to the “spray and pray” pattern of buckshot.

The ones with Tavor-21's have their vests stuffed with full mags, as well carrying many smoke and/or flash-bang (concussion) grenades too. They are really ready for anything which is good, as you can't predict what will happen. Way better for them to be prepared for ANY contingency then not prepared like before.

They also have about a dozen or more of the waist high orange street barricades (the kind you put in place and fill with water which has clips to hold barb-wire). They are placed in front of the Times Square building along with about 12 rolls coiled of razor wire.

I think this is a good form of 'containment' when the time comes to push the dwindling mob from their Rachaprasong ‘moo-ban’; close down the roads, corral 'em in, keep reinforcements and other out. Finally the soldiers are exhibiting crowd dispersal 101 techniques and tactics.

With that being said, the soldiers in this area are semi-celebrities to say the least. In just in the 20 minutes I chatted with them, I saw foreign tourists ask to be photographed standing next to the soldiers at least 70 times. (The soldiers should charge $$ for this, like the tourist area street bug sellers do!! )

It also appears that when soldiers and police broke the up-country barricades to get thru, the reds cried foul and are going to fill assault charges against them.. Wait, aren't the redz the one breaking the law in the first place by blocking PUBLIC highways with their b/s barricades? Or am I mistaken and any mob can block a highway and conduct searches of vehicles? Although I just read the Thanyaburi Court sentenced 11 red shirts to 15 days in jail for setting up check points along Pholyothin Rd; and they were jailed immediately!! So progress in the renegade blockadez. ..

That's almost as comical as ‘whacky’ Dr. Weng’s statement on the red stage this morning about the red leaders NOT approving the blocking of the BTS Chidlom station with tires. Wait a second, isn't the BTS Chidlom station inside the red moo-ban area? How did 'fake redz' carry frickin' truck tires UP onto the platform with NO 'real redz' seeing it or even questioning what they were doing. Strange that Weng said they should remove the tires, but it took another 2 hours for the message to travel from the stage to the station. Even though you can clearly hear what any redz speaker on stage says when standing in the station itself. The mind wobbles at the insanity of the red leaders mentality in this fracas.

I commend the thai government for playing them with kid-gloves so far. Sadly, for the redz, (or as they're now known, the color-less, non-privileged shirtz) and really everyone involved in this; I think it the gloves gonna come off quite soon. ...

Kinda related . . . I just saw a white T-shirt that says:

เสื้อตัวนี้สีเดียวกะมึง

I was told that if I wear it, I'll be ปลอดภัย . . .

Does that translate in to "This is the only frickin' color shirt I have!!"???

Is that like the bumper stickers on cars which say; รถคันนี่สีเขียว "This car is green", no matter what color car the sticker happens to be affixed to?

spelling correction: เสื้อหลากสี

My Thai friends apparently can't spell . . .

I apologize to the above poster known as "farangnahrak"and stand humbly 'erected' , err corrected!!

I 'mis-remembered' the word for many colors and it is indeed; หลากสี...

What's in a Name?

"THE NATION: Nuttawut: we won't call ourselves multicolour. We r colour-less and non-privilege group. (mai me see, mai me sen in Thai).TT @jin_nation"

I have not seen the Thai but I am assuming that "เสื้อหลากสี" has become "เสื้อไม่มีสี ไม่มีเส้น"

I guess we can call this "แม่ชี" garb.

David; I think the REAL 'many colored shirts' (เสื้อหลากสี) would not take too kindly to be lumped in with the former redz, (เสื้อแดง) recently turned colorless (เสื้อไม่มีสี) just because the redz took off their shirts so as to not stand out like sore thumbz in a crowd.

(Now if they were yellowz disguised as many colors, reds disguised as yellowz, the ever popular fake redz, or if on the odd chance they were yellowz actually wearing yellow but under that shirt they wore a red shirt because they were somewhat sympathetic to the red cause... .ARGH!! I give up!!! There are just too many frickin' colors to keep track of )

Strange, I've always heard the phrase มีเส้น used more like "to have connections". When a problem arises like if a thai gets into a jamb with Police or some other problem, they have a number to call or a "connection" high enough up the food chain to remedy the situation. Interesting that ไม่มีเส้น can mean non-privileged.

So far we haven't had any which refers to a person's character or personality.

Any word that carries the 'added' meaning of 'feed', 'breed' or 'rear' is going to sound very 'farmer'.

I don’t think you’re correct in the assumption the word เลี้ยง is gonna sound "farmer" (which for the sake of not arguing I'll take it you meant held a more colloquially and not formal meaning). I just called my uni-educated former thai teacher and she said การเลี้ยงดูลูก is to raise/bring up children. While it is true the word เลี้ยง can carry the meaning in regards to animals of raise, breed, as in เลี้ยงสัตว์, raise animals or เลี้ยงปลา raise fish. No one in this country would ever mistake it for a derogatory term in regards to children.

My recollection wasn’t that good. This is the actual sentence.

She was raised in a conservative family.

เขาถูกเลี้ยงมาในครอบครัวหัวโบราณ

Strange I got almost the same thing out of reading the sentence (although I had a few mistakes I guess);

เขาถูกเลี้ยงมาในครอบครัวหัวโบราณ “She was brought up in a family which followed conservative/traditional values.”

To me it was not immediately apparent that the word ถูก showed this is a passively voiced statement. I'd incorrectly interpreted it to be "correctly raised" thinking it was a complimentary statement, although my former thai teacher pointed it out right off. That passive voice thing gets me every time in thai.

At least I got word มา right in that it only shows directionality; as the instilled knowledge she gained came from her family flowing towards (into) her.

The word หัว I puzzled over until I found it can also mean 'inclined to be' when used as a modifier and not the traditional word 'head' or "main piece'. But again, I was completely off base as my teacher said someone who is หัวโบราณ is 'conservative in their values as far as appearance and manners', or as she related it being a youngish 25+ y/o Bangkok born and bred girl; "their head is stuck in ancient times and they cannot embrace the modern changes to thai society" <-near direct quote.

I freely admit I tend to parse thai too much into the individual word by word definitions and often forget that compounding two words yields a meaning that is completely dissimilar to the stand alone meanings of each individual word. This one; หัวโบราณ wasn't far off, if indeed it means "their heads are still stuck in the past".

Ahh, the myriad of meanings in the thai language, no wonder I don't speak. ..

I guess it's time I finally enroll in one of the many schools I've reviewed, and actually learn to speak thai with thais. ..

Filling the bottle with what ? Sarsi or red bull ? Its hot you know .

Seriously because a few idiots , Arisman , Sae Daeng are asking to burn

Bangkok or sack shopping malls does not mean the immense majority of red

will do it . Bangkok is not on fire , shopping malls are not sacked .

<SNIP>

Have a thai tell you if the the english translation is correct. If you can understand even 2-word-tourist-thai, you can hear at the 29 second mark of the video Arisman says “nam-man” (น้ำมัน fuel, gasoline, deisel, etc). Now I know the thai penchant for drinking all and sundry but I never ever saw a thai drink gasoline; lao-khao, ya-dong, lao-dom, sa-tho, beer, whiskey, wine, yes, but NEVER gasoline.

I also find your argument lacking substance that simply because the city is not in flames that this type of rhetoric from the red stage to the red-rabble is acceptable. Listen to Rajaprasong Red Radio (if you can get a signal) and see the hate-filled violence inciting rhetoric the radical red firebrands like; Jatuporn, Arisman, Suporn, and the like preach to the crowd.

Strange that when a more moderate speaker like Veera Musikapong is on stage he doesn’t talk quite with the same level of violence, and thankfully when whacky Dr Weng is on stage he doesn’t make sense at all.

The 'PAD Pink No Color' shirts are called เสื้อหลักสี.

I asked a bunch of Thai friends, and they all believe the 'no color' shirts are just the PAD in disguise . . . hence what I called them . . .

spelling correction: เสื้อหลากสี

My Thai friends apparently can't spell . . .

Out on my soi the 'many color shirts' are called หลายดอก (many flowers) or หลายสี (many color).. In fact some of my friends went to the many color rally the other day, just as some of my friends after drinking on my soi go to the red rally at Rajaprasong, and some of them went to the PAD get together.

FWIW: even though my thai friends are composed of redz, yellowz, dark bluez (Newin) and many colors we all sit together talk about what's going on politics-wise and get drunk in a friendly manner . What I (as an outsider find even more interesting is); even when they are piss drunk, they are respectful of each persons views. I honestly feel if more thais would share this; "okay your opinion is different from mine but I'm not gonna fight over it" viewpoint this entire fiasco would be a moot. These friends ALL share strong political convictions but won’t let politics get in the way of their friendships. Truly admirable. ..

In fact I printed this thread to show them the foreign interest in their politics and the vocabulary needed to actually talk coherently in thai to a thai about it. They were amazed we cared as much as we do. .

While the poster known as 'earthpig' is clearly living in his 'own private idaho" , (as well as being an expert in on-the-ground crowd estimation); he is correct in his assertions that at nite and on weekends the crowd is far larger than what it is during the early afternoon on any given weekday.

Estimating the size of a crowd from the perspective of being IN that actual crowd is fraught with peril as far as hard numbers are concerned. Even using crowd estimation software given the dimensions of a protest site AND using overhead pictures to gauge crowd densities (standing people, sitting people, etc) covering the site is still a crap shoot with probably a +/- accuracy of at best 25%.

Living near the “red-rabble moo-ban” I have made the sojourn MANY times over the last month or so, and I NEVER EVER saw near the numbers of people 'earthpig' alludes to with his 'man-on-the-ground' erroneous reports, BTW which are completely unsubstantiated by any pictorial evidence. (Your mobile doesn't have a cam huh?)

Given the large variability in mob size, a person in charge of crowd dispersal would perhaps wait to undertake such an endeavor during the day on a weekday; when both lack of protestors, lethargy from heat and good visibility are in their (the dispersers) favor.

Mob dispersal 101 is;

1 - drive them from their fortified stronghold out onto the streets

2 - get them moving in any direction but back to their ‘fort’

3 - not allowing large groups to re-form

Once the first two are accomplished, it's not that hard to push people where you want them to go, and is no where as difficult as ‘cat-herding’ (a fraught with peril occupation if there ever was one! )

Granted doing this during a week day complicates things due to normal business traffic. However because the business area has been held hostage by the reds for the length of time it has, this business traffic is totally manageable and almost negligible in the grand scheme of things.

Entreaty to ‘earthpig’

How about getting out from behind your monitor now and go snapping us a few pictures of the red-rabble, just to prove to us you actually know where Rajaprasong is.

As an aside; ANY foreigners NOT living in the glorious “Land ‘O Thais’, but who want red-rabble souvenirs; foot clappers, hats, shirts, elastic forearm covers, head bands (now available in SILK!!), or any of the other crap for sale down there; drop me a P/M and I’ll call my friend who sells red stuff there. Given the plethora of people selling, prices are rock bottom, and this is definitely the time to buy!! Call now! Don't wait!! Operators are standing by to take your order. ..

The Abhisit/Anupong address on t/v today (even when the signal was interrupted briefly ) was the most united I've ever seen those two guys. Despite the press painting them always at odds, it was a pretty darned good interview, and covered a LOT of good points in explaining to the public at large just what is going on, and WHY Abhisit can't/won't bow to the 'demands' of a few to the detriment of the many.

I totally concur with this premise; the way forward cannot be for the sake of the minority or thru the 'gun-boat-diplomacy' the red-rabble is using to hold hostage the commercial district of Bangkok.

I find it admirable, Abhisit acknowledges that a Lower House dissolution is, in all probability, a positive way forward for the country as a whole. BTW: he has have EVERY right to stick to his party's mandate via the constitution in place now to be PM until his term is up late 2011. That's the next scheduled elections for MP's.

Dissolving the Lower House to call for 'snap elections' at this point in time would benefit no one but the radical redz. In fact it would hurt MP's who ran, won, and voted for the PM of their choice, by forcing them to run again for no reason. Don't forget the Demz need to pass the 2010 country's budget, be in power for the hand off of the Military when Anupong is forced to retire, not to mention the amendments to the charter (constitution) which must be made BEFORE a dissolution, and elections, or the elections will be no better than last time.

Whine all you want but Abhisit is the rightful PM under this constitution, just like Samak & Somchai were (and who ALSO got to be PM via a coalition of parties too, as they didn’t hold a majority of MP seats!!). That the Demz were able to garner a coalition of MP's to give them the majority and there by the mandate to run the government is totally and completely in line with how the constitution reads.

Don't forget when Newin Chidchob and his 'friends of Newin' group of nearly 40 MP's defected to the Demz side, Thaksin came out and called him 'traitor to the people'. Hmm, sounds like sour grapes to me. Although FWIW I trust Newin Chidchob, his Bhum-Jai-Thai party and the "Friends of Newin Group" of MP's about as far as I can throw them.

The redz are fast losing steam in their "rally for the good of the people", which is actually a rally for a minority of people who are upset their party can't get a majority of MP seats in the lower house and get to run the government. Let's get it straight, first during negotiations with the government their "demand' was dissolve the Lower House in 15 days, then after April 10th, their 'demand(s)' morphed into immediatly disolve the Lower House AND for Abhisit to leave the country. Now they've back pedaled into their newest 'demand' of a 30 day dissolution, and not a mention of Abhisit needing to leave the country. It is all too apparent the red-rabble's credibility as well as their wellmeaning supporters are growing less and less every day; I think it's a matter of time until the Military just disperses the 2000 or so who are hiding in the shade during the heat of the day.

In re-conning the protest site nearly every other day at various times, I fould the crowds are at their absolute lowest between about 1:30 and 3:30PM every day. The number swells in the evening when people are off work and when it is cooler than sitting on the scorching pavement under piss poor shade cloth. Given this country relies on the Armed Services, unlike the US, who uses the National Guard for crowd dispersal when they get out of hand, a night time dispersal will be both difficult to coordinate and control.

For the record I am PRO-DEMOCRACY. I am not a red, yellow, green, dark blue, or sky-blue-pink shirt; although I share some of each factions ideology in the way forward for the country. As the constitution currently in effect is written; the people in power now have 100% of the right to be there.

Don't like it?

Lobby your MP's to change the constitution.

Don't like who your elected MP voted for as PM?

Next time think about who you're voting for and what they will do for you before selling your vote or voting as the Nai or Puu-yai-ban of your village dictated.

Thai democracy, Google it, it's a hoot to read. ..

I was thinking the same thing. I also heard rumour of RPGs being used, and depending on the ammunition, that would also extend their range, but would be more visible, hence the rockets.

If you take a look at the video of the damage it seems that whatever it was that exploded fell down from above.

Not sure what the range of those grenade launchers are but they seem to have been quite accurate considering the distance between the alleged launch site and skytrain station is around 400-500 meters.

It was most certainly NOT an RPG round, as that's a sure suicidal weapon to fire off at night given the "trail back" effect of the round. You give your position away totally firing one in the day time, and especially so at night.

After perusing Google Earth, Google Maps (although not knowing about Scribble maps, thanx ), I think it's entirely within the range of an M79 to have been fired from within the 'redz-bamboo-fort'.

Also post blast patterning shows a very steep angle in which the rounds impacted; it is clear they were used at nearly their furthest effective range, (almost dropping straight out of the sky). When used in this fashion they are much less accurate, rather than indirect short range firing, or "point and shoot". However, they have a fairly accurate long range 'lob-sight' on the top of the barrel. One or maybe two 'range in rounds' and even a semi-incompetent person could land rounds on that sky train platform all frickin' night long.

I also disagree with a previous posters guess that they could have used a bounce and explode strategy. The standard M79 fragmentation rounds are of the detonate on impact variety and can’t be skipped like a stone at any trajectory other than almost parallel to the ground.

I am NOT saying the reds did it, only that in my observation, it’s entirely plausible the rounds originated from an area where there was a limited military presence, ZERO many colorz, and a plethora of redz.

Third hand, ronin warriors, men-in-black, I dunno. ...

I find it strangely coincidental that at the main stage and rally site Rajaprasong last time; (former pop singer, and recently turned rappelling aficionado ) Arisman told the protestors NOT to abandon their 'kids fort' by the Rama 4 statue near Lumpini. He said, in nearly the same breath said black shirted 'helpers' would come to their aid to hold' the position.

Shortly after that the M79 grenade attacks began. Now either it is one hellova whacky coincidence OR it is what it appears to be; The mysterious '3rd-hand', 'ronin warriors', 'men-in-black' or (insert your catchy name here ) showed up, and decided to take the action to a higher level.

FWIW, (although I'm sure the well read, well researched, semi-illustrious posters of T/V know this info already);

The M79 is a short (73cm long) easily concealable weapon, (made even more concealable if the rear stock is cut off some). While the shells are 40X46mm, they are quite low in velocity. If it's used like a mini-mortar to 'lob' shots in, it can have an effective range of over 350 meters. Of the available rounds for this, only the smoke cartridge gives away the location of the shooter via trajectory trace-back, as the fusing device for the smoke charge is burning. If you’ve ever heard one fired, you immediately understand why it is called “Thumper”, as the report is one of the most characteristically individual sounds and you NEVER EVER forget it.

1. How does the media know for certain that the explosions were caused by M-79 grenades? After all, they exploded and no trace remains except perhaps for fragments. <SNIP>

2. If they were M-79’s, <SNIP> I would be surprised if they were easy to obtain.

<SNIP>

I offer condolences to the family of the person that was killed in the incident. I fear that this is just the beginning.

I strongly disagree with the above much abbreviated quoted post. The M79 is BY FAR AND AWAY one of the easiest weapons to get in S/E asia (next to hand grenades). It is way easier to find than say an AK-47. It’s are both inexpensive and plentiful in any of the bordering countries. Almost anyone could given proper motivation acquire one quite easily. (Christ I could probably get one if I put my mind to it.)

In perusing the pics of the impact sites on the internet, it looks like standard fragmentation rounds were used. (Thank the goddess, that who ever fired the rounds didn't have flechette rounds as they chew people up BAD.) If anything good can be said from this tragedy, when the M79 uses standard fragmentation rounds; examining the impacts (especially shots made from long range) are fairly easy (sadly, after the fact) to glean (thru post blast patterning) a close estimate of both a rounds flight trajectory and possible position of the shooter when the round was fired.

Another thing, it is disheartening is that some posters refer to the 'multi-color' people as 'yellow shirts', although the PAD makes NO claims to them being in their cadre of supporters. For all we know they could be disenchanted or disenfranchised redz, yellowz, or they could really just be normal bangkokians who are tired of this affecting their livelihood. With the plethora of 'fake colors' out there, it is difficult to really know who is who anymore.

(I just hope no faction of the thai population decides to wear black KISS tour t-shirts or I'm out of an entire wardrobe )

About the only thing I wholeheartedly concur with in the quoted post is; I too offer condolences to the family of the persons who were killed and injured.

Could you tell me when the PPP got caught red handed committing electoral fraud.

Do your own research

this forum has disccused this hundreds of times

I don't need to do any research to tell you that you are wrong if you think that you are right just answer the question.

A 25 second sojourn into Google gave me this;

Dec 1, 2008

BANGKOK (AFP) — Thailand's constitutional court on Tuesday banned Prime Minister Somchai Wongsawat from politics for five years and dissolved the ruling party over a case of voting fraud.

"As the court decided to dissolve the People Power Party, therefore the leader of the party and party executives must be banned from politics for five years," said Chat Chonlaworn, head of the nine-judge court panel.

"The court had no other option," No matter whether you are satisfied or not with the verdict, we ask you to accept it," he said.

The verdict said the party must be disbanded because PPP executives had been convicted of vote fraud after elections in December 2007.

"Although some party executives had no knowledge of the election fraud, the law stipulates clearly... the party must scrutinise its executives thus the party cannot deny responsibility,".

Google, learn how to use it. ..

In other news I think this was timed quite well, Veera, the lone voice of semi-reason, suddenly still leading the red shirts as related by fire brand, no negotiation, red-rabble leader Natthawut Saikua

Veera still leading the red shirts: Natthawut

BANGKOK: -- Red-shirt leader Natthawut Saikua on Thursday denied speculation that Veera Musigapong had resigned his leadership due to differences related to the April 10 violence.

"Veera did not quit but he has not appeared on the rally stage because of the division of responsibilities (among the core leaders)," he said, explaining Veera's absence.

Speculation spreaded that Veera disagreed with the direction of the protests for fear of a repeat of bloodletting incidents.

Quite the lame reason Veera has been absent lately, after all didn't Arisman say after his power cord rappelling incident that all the leaders now 'staying together for our own safety" and camped out down at the red-moo-baan; Rajaprasong? How much responsibility do the leaders have? Get up on stage when it's cool and the crowds are largest to get the best sound byte for the press and preach hate filled rhetoric. Hmm, seems like a cush job to me.

Currently there are 16 'on-going' UN Peacekeeping missions in the world. The longest has been 'on-going' since 1948; Arab-Israeli ceasefire monitoring and the most recent a Central African Republic and Chad monitoring endeavor.

I find the entire thing nothing more than an international publicity stunt cooked up by the whacky Dr Weng designed to show the world the pitiful plight of the incredible injustice suffered by the allegedly 'peacefully protesting redz'. I think it is highly unlikely that his request would even be taken semi-seriously given the reluctance of the UN to intervene in world events which make things here look like a couple of kids in a playground fight at school.

The things in thailand are a non-event to anyone not here and/or with business thais to thailand. Given Dr Weng's less than stellar grasp of the engrish language I doubt it will even garner a 10 second sound byte. I also find it interesting that he 'requested' a group of 2000 redz to accompany him to the UN office 'for his personal safety'. His paranoia knows no bounds.

I think the Military is playing this very shrewdly, following nearly a by-the-book plan of; containment, limiting more people from joining, and slowly but surely curtailing re-supply.

From my own personal observations yesterday afternoon at Rajaprasong, and Lumpini the redz are running out of steam and given the very small crowd I saw they are fast running out of followers as well. Both areas were also very dirty and foul smelling with BIG piles of garbage everywhere I looked. When I tried to take a picture of the mountain of trash down at Rajaprasong I was not so politely discouraged by the redz.

In other news; I heard twice from some thais I know that the 'Thaksin President for the New State of Thailand' stickers were actually made up by “Friends of Newin” supporters, but again this is an unconfirmed report. What I found most puzzling was I heard it from two different thais who don't know each other at all, and in different parts of the city too.

Here's a good one from the new stickers which sprang up around Silom.

ประธานาธิบดี ทักษิณ ชินวัตร

ประมุข รัฐไทยใหม่

President Thaksin Shinawatra

Leader (of the) New State of Thailand

At the bottom is นปช. although they deny it's them. Another 'third hand', or มือสาม I guess.

Christ with all the new colors "coming out" this week as far as political affiliation, soon I'm not even gonna be able to wear my black KISS band t-shirts. ..

No wonder <SNIP>

You might pick a better avatar and user name than a terrorist... Then again, reading your posting history, it's right up your alley to pick a whacko like Che. Keep up the great work. ..

Another 44 post thai political pundit is born . ..

Not to mention the insightful Profile

Age: Unknown years old

Gender: Not Set

Location: Unknown

Inquiring minds might want to know; are you even anywhere near thailand now or just another armchair thai political pundit?

And how do you know who handed them out? Or are you another colour coded apologist of red or yellow on here?

<SNIPPED FOR BAD ENGRISH> or not. ...

Then again maybe you shouldn't be so "hammered" when you post.

It is barely understandable even in "horse speek" (whore speak) or "thai-engrish".

I'm sure you have spell check, USE IT. If you've been a member since 2006, I think you can sa-peak engrish better than the piss poor way you did. Give it a try man, or have you lived in Nakhon Nowhere too long?

As an aside: I heard from less than semi-relaible sources (out on my soi drinking with the redz, yellowz, dark bluez as well as the local Police) that it was none other than the "Friends of Newin" who made and distributed the stickers on Silom.

Good on Newin if he had the balls to do that. .. Finally a thai with balls. ..

Anyone got a pic of the new sticker making the rounds which has the red-rabble and Thaksin’s panties in a wad?

I think it might make a good t-shirt design. ..

Thako proxy party seats won: 233

dem seats won: 165

so how many voted for his party after the Coup??

Nobody voted...

well maybe 280 people did. I'm not sure.

Actually, now that you mention it.. The post coup elections played out like this for party list MP's given a total of 480 seats in the Lower House. Which BTW is who votes for the PM, and NOT the people. Oh and another thing, ALL the current MP's were voted for BY THE PEOPLE to be their representation.

Anyway, it breaks down like this;

PPP 310 (Samak) (PPP had NO stand alone majority or if they did why did they form a 6 party coalition)

Democrat Party 165 (Abhisit)

*5 MP's votes unaccounted for*

After Samak was axed for the "cooking show fiasco" the MP's voted like this for PPP's Somchai;

PPP 298 (Somchai) (AGAIN PPP had NO stand alone majority as a party but formed a 5 party coalition)

Democrat Party 163 (Abhisit)

*19 MP's votes unaccounted for*

After Somchai was axed Chaovarat became caretaker PM, as he was the "last man standing" (even though the constitution stipulates that the Prime Minister must be a member of the House of Representatives, and sadly Chaovarat was not. ..)

Then there was the FLIP of banned politician Newin Chidchob and his "Friends of Newin" group who defected from the Redz. The MPs that flipped came from various and sundry political parties but it is interesting to note they also came from the For Thais Party (Puea Thai, the successor of the PPP), the former Chart Thai Party, the Thais United National Development Party, the Neutral Democratic Party, and the infamous "Friends of Newin" faction of the former Peoples Power Party sided with the Demz. Those 32 MP's which Newin controls are the linchpin to the whole equation which gave the Demz the majority in a vote of MP's which looked like this:

Democrat Party 235 (Abhisit) (Demz also had NO stand alone majority but formed a coalition with the Friends of Newin Group MP's)

PTP 198 (Pracha Promnok)

*47 MP's votes unaccounted for*

There could be and probably is a margin of error in the numbers as they obviously don't add up to 480 each time and a person might ask why didn't an MP vote for PM..

I still can't find why 47 MP's votes in the last go round of voting in the Lower House are unaccounted for. It could be dubious googling, or bad information, but I found the numbers on a few internet sites.

That's the good bad and ugly of the Lower House voting which lead to where we are today boyz & gurls.

Carry on with your armchair political punditry <sic>, it's interesting to say the least.