Tod Daniels

<SNIPPED FOR CLARITY>

no more comment .

That was possibly the smartest thing you've said yet. Certainly it was the one thing which made the most sense . ..

Great first post.

My advice;

Keep up on those "ESL" courses, they're certainly paying off but hang in there. ..

In other news; I find it a bit strange that there are no soldiers stationed around Asok/Sukhumvit today.

I guess they're all down closer to Rachaprasong hemming in newly arrived red-rabble-replacements from Khon Kaen.

The PM's "road map" was far from fair. <SNIPPED OUT MINDLESSNESS>

OMG another 23 post thai political pundit is spawned. ..

WHILE YOU POST IS OFF TOPIC I’ll answer you with:

Go check your facts before you spout off political one sided rhetoric;

Short history lesson follows;

AFTER the coup there were elections and NOT ONE PARTY got a clear majority.

The redz cobbled together a coalition and had TWO (count 'em TWO) 'red' P/M's. Like I said, they (the redz) didn't have a majority of M/P's in the Lower House so they couldn't run the government without forming a coalition with the smaller parties.

The first P/M; Samak ran amuck of something called the 'law' (which prohibits a P/M from holding another job while in office). Now even a semi-intelligent person might be lead to believe that if someone was gonna be the frickin' P/M of this country he or his party might actually read the constitution and/or the law concerning that job (then again as evidenced by what happened, maybe not. ..).

After Samak the P/M was another 'red' Somchai, but he too ran amuck of something called electoral law and was found guilty of vote buying, and paying small parties to run against them in constituencies where the 'reds' were running unopposed. (In this country if you run unopposed you have to get 20% of the registered voters in an area instead of just a majority of who ever happens to turn out to vote when you run against someone else.

AFTER Somchai was axed, Abhisit and the Dem party were able to for yet another coalition of smaller parties, get a majority of M/P's in the lower house and thereby the mandate under the same law as Samak/Somchai had for their turn at bat to run the government.

Now this was due, in no small part, to Newin Chidchob and his 'Friends of Newin' group of nearly 40 M/P's switching sides from the redz to the Demz, but that is neither here nor there. There is NO provision in the constitution which says if a candidate doesn't fulfill the platform under which he was elected (like saying if he switches sides after he's elected) the people can call for a recall-vote or do anything except just suck it up until the next elections.

The next elections aren't legally required to take place until the END of 2011! That Abhisit is willing to cut his term by A YEAR, as well as his kid-glove approach to the red-rabble (almost to the point of being perceived as weak), and his statements that the constitution NEEDS to be amended, speaks volumes for someone who is really trying to find a way outta this quagmire.

That my politically un-savvy poster; is how the thais have arrived at this juncture.

It's just sour grapes on the redz, and who are obviously mad at Newin for switching sides which lead to the current government with the Demz. (And BEFORE you spout off that the P/M didn't have the mandate of the people, check your facts again, in this country the people DON'T elect a P/M, they elect M/P's who elect the P/M.

Last time I checked, ALL the M/P's of the Lower House WERE elected by the people, so yes in fact the people DID elect this P/M, according to thai electoral/constitutional law.

Now what your post has to with the violence last nite, I've no clue, but please at least check some facts before you spout off..

BACK ON TOPIC:

I still find it strange that the reds are never targeted as victims in any violence; the multiz, the yellowz, the police, the soldiers, the regular rank and file people pissed at the protests yes, but never ever the redz. Hmmm. My vote is on Khattiya or another wing-nut like him.

Given the fragmented leadership exhibited from the red stage at Rachaprasong between the core leaders and the 'underlings', (not to mention the alternate site at Lumpini which it would seem is run ONLY by Maj-Gen Khattiya Sawasdipol also known as Seh Daeng.) I think it is no wonder that there is violence, (which suspiciously other than the April 10th 'ronin warriors' or 'men-in-black' has NEVER ever been directed at the red-rabble protestors )

The instigator and/or brains behind the attacks is probably someone who shares a belief system like Khattiya .

FWIW: Maj-Gen Khattiya Sawasdipol is a real piece of frickin' work (NOT!! ). He's a red-firebrand whack-job whose every answer to every issue in this political stand off has been to preach; VIOLENCE.

He used to be the 'leader' of the 'black shirts' who are the security force for the red-rabble tree forts in the two areas.

Previously his statements showed he knew quite a bit of inside intel concerning the 'ronin warriors’ and/or ‘men-in-black' who routed the soldiers on April 10th. His housing compound was searched some time ago and a BIG cache of weapons was found buried in the yard. He professed to having no knowledge of how the weapons got there. (Nope, never saw the back-hoe or the caravan of trucks or the men which buried that stuff. Sorry, musta missed it when I ran out for Somtam. )

I don't think he's been seen at the Rachaprasong 'tree fort' in a while, mostly due to his widely disparate political ideology in seeking a solution to the problems. He hangs out mostly at the one by the Rama 6 monument.

He's quite easy to spot. He's can't be even 5 feet tall; so look for the only midget in Army fatigues inside the red-rabble 'tree fort' walkin' around posing for pics, waving his hands, and looking important. He's clearly a legend in his own mind.

I wouldn't trust that guy as far as I could throw him, (and giving that he's quite small, I could probably chuck him a fair distance).

As an aside; Just talked to a friend stuck in a city bus on Phaholyothin Road and traffic is choked with the red-caravan making its way evidently to the main rally site at Rachaprasong. She said the sides of the road are quite thick with soldiers. Looks like the Khon Kaen contingent has arrived to shore up the dwindling numbers of protestors.

Although there appears to be scant new and verifiable information, there are two older threads concerning this at one time, a nearly beat to death topic;

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/Ed-Visa-Exte....html&st=50

and here;

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/Preparing-Ed...st-t345462.html

My advice;

Depending on what school you're enrolled in (you don't name it ), and where you're actually attending school (again you don't mention it ); if you're going to Bangkok's main Immigrations office out at Changwattana you're unlikely to be asked anything more difficult than superficial coversational b/s in thai while the Immigrations Officer checks and verifies your paperwork.

I wouldn't sweat it, nor worry too much about it. ..

That is the exact reason I warned the O/P and ALL newbie foreigners NOT to learn thai from songz.

Until you can tell by listening what dialect they are singing in, you're better off learning from a frickin’ text book by about 1000%.

FWIW: I too had to look up the lyrics from that song; มันต้องถอน because I couldn't understand it, after listening to it MANY times.

Finally I saw the lyrics written out, and I could switch out the frickin' Issan (thai-lao) for Central (bangkokian) thai., (but still it was a rough fuc_kin’ slog as it was almost EVERY word)

My advice: Learn songs which are sung in CENTRAL (bangkokian) thai FIRST, then you can do the cutesy dialects. ..

Sadly learning thai from songz any way you play it is a 'tough row to hoe' (an american idiom,;but ONLY if you were dirt poor). …

Unfortunately of all the thai bands I have spoken with in engrish (and there have been quite a LOT);

ONLY Bird Thongchai (who is queer as a 3 dollar bill ) and Sek Loso (who took engrish classes in the UK for almost a year ) can speak ANYTHING resembling coherent engrish.

No one else (except recovering crack whore Palmy, who is half-thai ) can sa-peak anything more than '2-word-engrish' or 'horse-speak' and you can (name your artist here). ...

I hafta say overall; thai bands SUCK at sa-peaking engrish. Yes, maybe they can sing an engrish song; BUT really they suck off stage.

But then again, if you're catering to a thai only audience, who gives a flyin; &lt;deleted&gt;. .. .

As AN ASIDE:

If anyone can understand what Sek Loso is saying during the "voice over" when he speaks during the intro, PLEASE translate it and tell me as I am too "sa-tupid" to "under-sa-tand" it..

Which shows how much I know colloquially spoken thai. ..

Umm that would be less than ZERO percent,,, yes?

I think he is sa-peaking Bankokian thai BUT I still cannot understand it, and I've watched the video MANY times.. .

Now everyone can see how LOW my level of thai is. ...

Not to clutter the thread with videos, BUT. ..

When I first heard and translated this song by Sek Los (เสก โลโช) called เหงาคิดถึงรอ (roughly translated as; “Lonely, Missing You, Waiting”), I got a completely different meaning then when I finally found the video and watched it. .. ...

It shows just how important CONTEXT is in understanding spoken thai. Watch the video, listen to the music and see how much the meaning changes with the storyline added in the video.

I am sorry; this vid has an intro showing Loso working on/and writing this song.. ...

BUT hang in there, the video of the song is after the intro

SPOILER ALERT!!:

This video is SOOO very sad; as it looks like the girl dies at the end (from drinking drain cleaner).

To back up my rather brusque statement about learning thai thru song;

Here is a great reason NOT to learn thai-issan songs; although it is quite possible EVERY frickin' thai in this country knows it by heart;

มันต้องถอน; it roughly translates into “I’m so frickin’ hung over this morning from drinking myself into a stupor last nite that I need a shot to straighten out” (in engrish we call that “having some hair of the dog that bit me last nite ). The artist; ปอยฝ้าย

Now on the flip side (although I've mentioned and posted it before) here's an EXCELLENT reason to listen to more modern thai rock bands.

This song has excellent, very meaningful lyrics. Chang Beer (the sponsor for the bands who perform it) could have easily marketed this song as one which could've been used to heal the giant political chasm which divides the country, (However, in their infinite wisdom Chang instead decided to make it a bull-shit beer commercial, plastering posters on almost EVERY city bus to hawk cheap beer to the masses ).

It's performed by Sek Loso (เสก โลโซ), Micro (ไมโคร), Big Ass (บิ๊กแอส) & Bodyslam (บอดี้สแลม) .

It’s called; คนไทยหัวใจเดียวกัน, roughly; "Thai peoples' hearts are united" (obviously if we are to believe the sponsor, thais are united in their love for Chang beer ).

I found it interesting to note, in the song just before the lead guitar solo, Sek Loso shouts out; ช้างเอาเลย. From what I can glean, this phrase in ancient times was the cry in battle when the infantry troops yelled for the armored war elephants to be charged out on the field.

In today's more modern context I guess we must take it to mean; "Bring on the Chang Beer!!"

Anyway, good luck in your endeavor to learn thai. I didn’t mean to dissuade you in the least, and you can't go wrong trying to learn thai by ANY method(s) which work for you and yield positive results.

I was talking to some thais (of various color shirt persuasions; redz, yellowz, multiz, dark bluez, etc) about the difficulty for foreigners in understanding thai politics without knowing a TON of political words.

I had with me a 9 page sheet of thai political words I shamelessly ripped from Kaewmala's blog "Love & Sex in Thai Culture" here; http://thaisextalk.wordpress.com/2010/04/1...lored-politics/

I had the red leaders listed, and when they got to the violence advocating, red-firebrand, whack job known as Maj Gen Khattiya Sawasdipol; พลตรี ดร.ขัตติยะ สวัสดิผล, also listed as Seh Daeng; เสธ. แดง they said I had the alias listed wrong. I already knew that เสธ. was the abbreviation for เสนาธิการ: aide de camp, aid, or Chief of Staff.

The thais said is technically the correct word. However, (and even the redz sitting with us reluctantly agreed they knew of this too) everyone colloquially refers to him as 'เศษ' แดง, using the demeaning word play of เศษ which as best I can glean carries the meaning of; insignificant, scrap, left over, or a little bit.

Dunno, just thought I would throw this out there as what I was told.

I also went down to the red-bamboo/rubber tire, and formerly gasoline soaked tree fort by Chula and saw Seh Daeng too. I agree with "farangnahrak"; Khattiya's a frickin 'legend in his own mind', posing for pix, and hamming it up for the press and will bloviate about thai politics and the red ‘solution’ to anyone who will take the time to listen to him talk.

In fact next to 'whacky Weng' I don't think there is anyone who likes to hear the sound of their own voice more than Khattiya. (Even though Jatuporn Suporn and Arisman come in a close tie for third!!)

Sadly, if there is one person in the red-rabble leadership who is likely to fight this 'road map to reconciliation' and continue to preach violence as the way forward, it's Seh Daeng.

As an aside; I had a dark navy blue colored t-shirt screened with เพื่อนเนวิน in references to the "Friends of Newin" group. I made and wore it more to see the reaction than anything else. Overall the shirt has gotten an unfavorable response, especially around ANY red-rabble 'tree forts' or strongholds as Newin is blamed for switching sides and making this entire political situation come about (at least if you believe the red take on things) .

A sensible person might think twice about wearing one, but then I've never ever been accused of being particularly politically correct or caring what people thought about me .

Anyone know what Abhisit’s; "road map to peace and reconciliation" is called?

"First of all, the government has maintained a correct policy in not interfering with the media. "

This, coming from the Pravda?

The Abhisit government has done more to censor the media than any other. Since Abhisit took over, his detractors have been habitually labelled as antimonarchists and otherwise enemies of the state. Radio, TV and websites that oppose the government have been shot down.

When Red media advocates the use of violence to overthrow the lawful government - it should be banned.

A coup is lawfull and seizing airports/gov complexes to force your way in cabinet?

NEWSFLASH for the 'thick';

The coup was done by the military to kick out a P/M in EXPIRED 'caretaker status' who dissolved the Lower House to stall a political decision by the constitutional court. Post coup there have been TWO 'red' P/M's (who unfortunately ran amuck of somthing called the law) and who did NOTHING while they were in power to further media freedom either.

When Thaksin was P/M he routinely litigated the press into silence by bringing frivilous lawsuits to the tune of MILLIONS of baht against his detractors, no matter how many facts they had to back up their claims against him as having validity.

I think ANY radio or television station which openly preaches violence as a SOLUTION to anything should be banned/blocked and/or shut down. End of story. .

Dissenting opinions are one thing, but outright calls for violence is a 'whore of a different color'. (Sorry I mean a 'horse of a different color', got my whores and horeses mixed up ...)

FWIW: I seriously doubt "the good ship thailand" has ever enjoyed the luxury of a 'free press', no matter who has been at the helm.

FWIW; living in an apartment which is located directly behind the Times Square Parking Building and behind the Sheraton Grande Sukhumvit delivery area I routinely have to go out and yell over the fence to tell the semi-truck drivers to turn off their engines when they're unloading a trailer. My house fills with diesel fumes in a matter of minutes, you can even see the blue haze.

Usually they are accomodating to this request; but on more than one occasion (as I can't squeeze between the metal fence pickets ) I've had to trudge all the way around behind the two buildings into the back alley to drive the point home.

I took it up with the Times Square management company; even going so far as to buy a sign for them which says in thai; "ATTN: trucks please turn off your engines for deliveries!".

Sadly I just saw yesterday that the security guards now uses the to reinforce the top of a small table they play cards on back there.

According to the Bangkok Post newspaper, the government is open to talks about an amnesty for people who have violated the ban on gatherings, but not for those who have committed criminal offences.

Best frickin' news I've read all day. The red leaders who are the main instigators of ALL the violence as evidenced by their 'fire-brand' rhetoric from the stage at Phan-Fa and now Rachaprasong need to be held 100% accountable for their actions.

Anyone who understands even 2-word-tourist-thai and tunes in to Red Rachaprasong Radio can hear quite quickly that the red leaders aren't preachin'; peace, love, flower-power as a way out of this.

Let the rank-&-file 'sheep-like' protestors go home. However people who have tried to push for a violent confrontation nearly every day by their speeches (and actions) as the solution to this problem should be prosecuted.

As an aside; quite the rainstorm now here at Suk/Asok where I live, hopefully the fires burning in the bellies of the protestors are being quenched as we speak down at Rachaprasong, and by Chula too. Leave it to good ol' Mother Nature to dampen their spirit.,

I would have to dispute the somewhat erroneous information about learning 5 songs and being able to do anything other than sing those 5 songs.

Personally I'd give a pass on the ultra-nationalistic thai national anthem, (as it has few if any 'high-value' words which are likely to be used in general conversation) but to each their own.

I'd also give a pass on any หมอลำ or ลูกทุ่ง music as well. They're usually not sung in central thai (the government approved language). While they might be good to listen to, again you're unlikely to learn 'high value' central thai words, which are very important for a beginner rather than any of the many thai dialects (which last time I checked, aren't government approved ).

I'd recommend listening to contemporary modern rock thai bands like; Sek Loso (เสก โลโซ), Big Ass (บิ๊กแอส), Bodyslam (บอดี้สแลม), Potato (โปเตโต้), Micro (ไมโคร), Ebola (อีโบล่า), even older ones like; Carabao (คาราบาว) Modern Dog (โมเดิร์นด็อก), Asani-Wassan (อัสนี-วสันต์), Stone-Metal-Fire (หินเหล็กไฟ), main stream pop/rock like Palmy (ปาล์มมี่), Bird Thongchai (เบิร์ด ธงไชย) & Nantida (นันทิดา).

Believe me, there's no shortage of thai music out there. Most people know almost all Bird and/or Sek Loso's songs by heart; even if they profess 'not to like' Loso (because of his savvy marketing as the antithesis of a 'hi-so person' and dressing in copy jeans, shirts, sneakers etc. )

FWIW; I have found thai songs rely much more on a poetry style of verse, with much more a flowery prose like vocab. In fact; other than the "frozen phrases" which you can easily incorporate into colloquial thai speaking; you're unlikely to learn 5 songs and suddenly be speaking with these people. They (the thais) do find it interesting that foreigners know and/or understand the lyrics of a particularly popular song, but it holds far more value as a novelty than anything really valuable in thai language acquisition.

With that being said; I've probably got 3 or 4 HUNDRED thai songs on my p/c and spent HOURS learning the lyrics, mostly just for fun.

Good Luck.

It could be clearly a victory for the Reds, who have cut one year off the life of a government that, ultimately, is seen by them to owe its existence to an illegitimate coup.

But to make his offer genuine and create this win/win situtation, Abhisit needs to add full amnesty for all: <SNIP>

If Red leaders are to be put in jail, then why not the generals who committed the coup? <SNIP>

Lame argument there ‘pig’ (even for you and your posting penchants );

The generals who did the coup wrote their amnesty into the 2007 constitution which the thai population passed by referendum.

I think letting the sheep-like run of the mill red protestor go home isn’t a bad idea BUT:

The red-rabble leaders 24 core 'core leaders' who are currently facing arrest warrants (to name a few; Jatuporn, Kwanchai, Suporn, Arisman, whack-job-Weng, Veera, and especially Maj-Gen Khattiya; aka Seh Daeng), should NOT get a free pass to walk away, as they have been the instigators and have spouted some of the most vile hate filled violence encouraging rhetoric I’ve ever heard. They should and need to be held accountable for both the loss of life, and the MILLIONS of baht damages incurred to Bangkok due to their actions. Let the average thai protestor leave, IF they leave when the government says, but if they hold out, and the government has to rout them from the bamboo/rubber tire tree forts, I say NO MERCY.

No matter how you spin this, it's far from a 'victory' for the red-rabble. ..Abhisit in the early negotiations with the reds said December elections, and now he’s saying mid November ones, WOW a two week concession, lol..

The time frame he offers is shrewdly AFTER the budget, AFTER General Anupong retires, and hopefully after they amend the constitution to strike a balance between the previous 1997 crap one and the 2007 one the thai people voted in. I hope the red leaders see this offer as something as good as it's gonna get for their hare-brained demands. I hope they cut their losses, let them put any p/r spin on it they want to play it up as a win, and tell their semi-loyal red-rabble protestors to go home.

The PAD have not been prosectuted fully over previous demonstrations. <SNIP>

Why would prosecuting PAD take any less time than prosecuting Thaksin took?

It's still less time by a year or so.

News Flash: the PAD leaders ALREADY showed up when arrest warrants were issued; they were given bail, and now it's a waiting game for the slow thai wheels of justice to grind forward until their case comes up on the docket. Thaksin was prosecuted by electoral and constitutional law, NOT civil and/or criminal law, they are different courts entirely.

I find it interesting that the red-rabble leaders are now floating the idea of some sort of 'amnesty' for the protestors.

I have no problem with letting the easily led-by-the-nose average thai protestor just going home. However, if the current government gives amnesty to the 24 red-rabble leaders who currently have arrest warrants out and especially the 'core leaders' like Jatuporn, Kwanchai, Suporn, Arisman, whack-job-Weng, Veera, Maj-Gen Khattiya (Seh Daeng) and the like, who are the ones directly responsible for having caused MILLIONS of baht damage to both the contry and the people whose businesses were affected where the reds have their bamboo/tire tree forts, it will be sad indeed.

<SNIP> you have to be generous, except for those who have blood on their hands.

The above mentioned individuals are the REAL people with 'blood on their hands' and they NEED to be held fully accountable for their actions in what’s happened. Letting them skate free is akin to condoning their actions of forcing a current government which operates under the same laws as the two previous 'red' governments into a compromise.

Although FWIW, Abhisit's 'road map' was very shrewd indeed. At the first televised meetings with the reds, he floated the idea of holding elections in December; now according to the new 'road map' he's saying elections in the middle of November. That's just a two week difference!! He says he's willing to dissolve the Lower House in September, which effectively gives his party another 60-90 days of caretaker status after that BEFORE elections are held.

It is interesting to note, the time frame he offers out is AFTER the budget gets passed, AFTER Anupong retires, and hopefully after they amend the current constitution to strike a balance between the crap 1977 one and the current 2007 one.

Any way you read this it is hardly the "win" the reds are trying to play it up to be. Listening to Red Rachaprasong Radio you'd think they were given the frickin' moon, and they're trying to convince the small mob that this is a BIG win for the red-rabble.

This is most definitely a 'win' for the Demz and Abhisit; he's showed restraint, even temperedness, and patience all the while giving the reds enough rope so they'd hang themselves thru fragmented leadership decisions, publicity blunders, and basically a one hand not knowing what the other is doing kind of style.

It's typical carrot and stick negotiations, and overall Abhisit hasn't given the reds much more than he initially offered to do all those weeks ago.

I also found it interesting that Veera Musikpong who has been noticeably silent on the red-rabble stage, would be the ones the red-leaders would send to 'negotiate' with the government and hash it all out. I have said all along that Veera was the key to finding a solution.

IMHO; The government has walked softly so far, but they sure are carrying one hellova a BIG frickin' stick (should things come to that). I hope it doens't and the red-rabble leaders take what's offered, but another old adage is 'spare the rod, spoil the child', and maybe these 'children' (aka the red leaders) need to be beaten with the rod a little before they understand the error of their ways.

To the poster known as "pornsasi". ..

Honestly, I had NO idea I'd misspelled your name (no really I didn’t!!). I only briefly glanced at it and thought it was another b/s transliteration/transcription of a thai word or phrase.

I stand humbly errected () that I have misspelled your name continually, BUT for the record; I will no longer do it.

Again I apologize for the error in your user name, but that is still NO reason to call me Toad, instead of Tod .

BACK ON TOPIC

One can only hope the current government has an "end game" in sight, as the "end game" which the red shirt leaders have is a far different outcome. Sadly, only thais will suffer the consequences. .. (well actually the thais and that frickin' wing-nut of an irish born-aussie down at the red stage who is here illegally, on overstay, without a baht to his name, w/out a passport, who can't speak a word of thai, yet who is another red foreign sock puppet apologist !!)..

Toad_daniels <SNIP>

Feel free to put me on ignore and continue your rambling , am out of this thread anyway .

Choose your enemies more wisely next time

Meanwhile have a beer , and relax

Pornsai, I DON'T have you on ignore, and misspelling my first name on porpoise <sic> is just plain childish. I only asked you learn how to respond with nested quotes, or quoted text. I am far from the sharpest tool in the proverbial tool shed, but even I learned how to do it. I know you can too

I find your take on 'all-thingz-thai' predictably and firmly in the red-apologist camp. Especially when you don't respond to facts which rebut your statements and/or beliefs with any facts of your own.

In and of itself, that neither invalidates your opinion, nor does it invalidate mine. (To me, opinions are like bowel movements; everyone has one once in a while ). I already stated I enjoy reading your replies and I NEVER EVER misspelled your user name either .

I'm a foreigner, and I wholeheartedly agree with what my ambassador said at the town hall meeting; "We don't have a dog in this fight." I follow the thai political situation because I live here, by choice not chance. I've spent hours trying to understand the post coup situation, the political make up, the laws that govern political parties, and what the process is for people who violate those laws. I don’t care a &lt;deleted&gt; about thai culture I care about thai politics, they are NOT anything close to the same.

FWIW: I have thai friends who are reds, yellows, multi-colors, no colors, and now ones that are thai soldiers (seeing as they're stationed at the mouth of my soi). Over drinks (sometimes to excess) almost every nite we have lively political discussions, yet not a single time has it it EVER turned disrespectful towards one another; no matter which color shirt they're wearing.

What I find oxymoronic is; if in fact their constituents can meet and have this kind of dialog, why can't the leaders of the opposing factions do it too.

Sorry, to your advice that I have a beer; not a beer drinker. A coupla shots of SangSom (thai rum) right now wouldn't be all bad though.. ..

To; "jdinasia"

I thought Veera serve time for a lese majeste charge and then got a royal pardon after a couple years?

(I had his life history internet page saved but now can't find it ). ..

Yes i do hope that it ends up peacefully , if unarmed civilians get killed , Thailand looses , not only Abhisit or the reds .

We have seen that movie before . But my read is that people start to be really fed up , so it has to play relatively fast

NO it has to play out fast if you're on the red side. The longer this drags on the more chances they have to pull another 'open mouth, insert foot' stunt like the Chula Hospital incredibly astute publicity stunt , and/or the Sala Daeng barricade fiasco; Take 'em down! NO wait, Khattiya said put 'em back up! No, you're right, okay take 'em down. Another great publicity move if there ever was one.

You’re right that people are starting to get fed up, in that they now see to what extreme the redz will go to, to ‘win’ this pissing match with the government. Public sediment <sic> is fast changing. .. The longer it drags out the more it erodes for the redz.

The red leadership is very fragmented in both ideology and in any clear way forward, not being able to agree to further negotiations with the already generous offer the Dems made to dissolve the Lower House nearly a YEAR before their term is due to legally expire. They (the leaders) seem to exhibit very little, if ANY control over their underlings (who also claim to be 'leaders', Seh Daeng, Maj-Gen Khattiya comes to mind). How many times can use the lame excuse; "They acted on their own" from the Rachaprasong stage in regards to publicity blunders?

I think the current government learned a hard lesson April 10; the reds will do ANYTHING to escalate this to a violent show-down; maybe even to the point of killing their own protestors. (Although I believe the truth on that is unlikely to ever come out).

The government is now practicing a sound policy of containment and a show of force to deter the reds from their ever popular mobile rallies and/or moving to a new rally site.

The reds have tried at every turn to provoke the government into a 'crack down'. Christ Red Radio warns of a crack down EVERY frickin' day. Listen to Rachaprasong Red Radio for a few minutes once the hideous cat wailing sound that passes for singing stops. Those leaders ain't preaching peace, love and flowers as the way out. It is some of the most vile, rude, hate filled, violence inciting, one sided, political rhetoric you'd EVER hear.

I think if Abhisit/Anupong/Suthep give the red leaders enough rope, they'll hang themselves. Maybe not today, but sooner and with far less loss of life than tryin to pry the reds from Rachaprasong or the Sala Daeng tree forts they have.

As an aside to the poster known as ‘pornsai’. .. PLEASE (I may speak for everyone who doesn't have you on ignore ) READ how to respond with quoted text, nested quotes in the ‘help section'. It’s a tough slog reading your posts. Although your responses are interesting to read..

Not that i want to put fuel on fire <SNIP>

Little fuzzy on your facts are you ‘pornsai’? It might behoove you to actually read the posts by 'jdinasia' (take him off ignore ) It is true that the OAG forwarded BOTH cases to the Constitutional Court, but only the TRT was found guilty. Sorry, an intelligent person MIGHT be lead to believe that either the Demz were not Guilty or there was insufficient evidence to prove their guilt. (Then again, for the Red Apologists out there; please disregard the term an intelligent person in the above sentence as the two terms cannot be used in the same sentence as they are mutually contradictory ).

Also Thaksin was caretaker P/M because HE dissolved the Lower House to STALL due process NOT any other reason. In fact he was actually in expired caretaker status when he was coup’d out by the military.

Unless I am mistaken when the public called for UN intervention and/or mediation during the Thaksin days his answer was "The UN is not my father'. That thailand is xenophobic to the n-th degree should come as NO surprise to anyone whose lived here even a small amount of time. They want to solve their problems internally, and as a country have a right to do that. Anyone seen any UN peacekeepers in the south since the violence down there started? Hmmm, I think that is NO… .

I thought it was quite interesting (and telling) that the PTP did the abrupt about face and reversed their stance on calling for a no confidence vote in the Lower House; especially after tooting their own horn to anyone who’d listen about how they were all fired up to do just that.

The reason they backed out is quite simple; During a no confidence vote the Dems could counter each and every charge the PTP leveled at them with things like facts. They (the Dems) could also call into question some of the PTP's actions. It had NOTHING to do with the PTP's p/r (in this case p/r means paranoia rhetoric) statement 'the government has blood on its hands', and everything to do with the PTP's allegations against the Dems not holding up to close scrutiny and/or serious public debate.

This is an internal, very, VERY localized, political thing for thailand. Drive 5 kilometers in any direction and you’d be hard pressed to even know which way the reds were camped out in their bamboo/rubber tire forts.

No matter how you spin it, in ANY way, shape or form it is NOTHING even close to resembling a 'civil war'. Few if ANY former prime ministers who faced things like this have EVER embraced outside mediation. In fact I don't believe even a single one ever has. (someone should Google it, personally I don’t care).

Like I said, first the redz went to the UN, then the EU, and as they work their way down the list I'm sure they'll find someone somewhere who cares (Castro, Chavez & the Burma Junta come to mind). It sure ain't gonna be ANY of the first world countries; who already know this entire chain of events is nothing more than a single political party's disenfranchisement in the way things played out post coup, once their guys; Samak & Somchai were axed due to violating electoral and constitutional laws.

Now it should come as no surprise that the above mentioned first world countries are going to come out with politically correct statements about ending the strife without violence and/or condemning the violence. &lt;deleted&gt; are they gonna say; ‘We hope you kill each other?; Sheesh . .

Red Shirt apologists are quick to forget; the Demz are in power under the exact same laws and same constitution which Samak and Somchai ran their governments under.

This only shows that a savvy political party can; by getting a majority of MP's in the Lower House on their side, get the MANDATE 'from the people' to run the government. The country has none other than Newin Chidchob to thank for this.

This whole thing is just sour grapes on the part of the ex-TRT/ex-PPP/now-PTP that once Newin and his "friends of Newin" group defected to the Dems side giving them the majority of MP's the PTP didn’t like it one bit.

IMHO the PTP should suck it up, be the party in opposition like a MINORITY party is supposed to, and when it's time for elections get your constituents to vote your MP's back in.

As an aside whacky-weng is far from a moderate on that team, as well as being prone to rambling about nothing of consequence for hours on end. Granted he's less violence prone that the fire-brands; Natthawut, Suporn, Arisman, and Jatuporn, but the real moderate (and possibly the key to this whole mess) is Veera Musikapong. For those not listening to Red Rachaprasong Radio, he has been noticeably absent from speaking, and is hardly ever one of the smiling 'three-stooges' during the photo-op camera sessions they do which they erroneously call 'press conferences'.

AND NOW BACK TO THE PISSING MATCH ALREADY IN PROGRESS

Given the protestors (aka; the red-rabble) in their bamboo/rubber tire 'fort' near Chula won't listen to Suporn, the ever popular 'Issan Rambo', who is one of the CORE leaders of the red-farce (aka; UDD), but instead prefer to follow Maj-Gen Khattiya 'Seh Daeng', (a truly dangerous nut job if there ever was one) I think the house 'o cards known as the red protest is gonna come crashing down quite soon.

Too many leaders with too many different ideas to achieve one goal; topple the current government, yet they don't communicate w/each other and they continually contradict each others statements.

Not to mention since the entire protest started they haven't put forth a single idea on how to improve the country, or its people other than an immediate dissolution of the Lower House.

What we need is a HUGE rain storm; given the thais extreme adversity to getting wet (strange seeing as this country gets on average 88 days of rain a year). Soak ‘em in a driving rain storm and I think the ‘fire’ will be quenched for most protestors.

This latest "open mouth-insert foot" incident the reds pulled shows just how fragmented and difficult to control the different factions inside the red camp are becoming.

At last count they have about 24 or so "leaders". .. Although in reality only about 6 or so are the red propaganda machines who actually speak on stage. No one actually controls anything or anyone's actions and there is ZERO accountability to anyone when they make a blunder.

That is why there're incidents, followed up by finger pointing, denials, excuses or sometimes just outright lies from the stage at Rachaprasong.

• We didn't authorize it. ..
  
• We didn't direct them to do it. ..
  
• He acted on his own. ..
  
• It was 'fake reds'. ..
  
• It was soldiers dressed as reds. ..
  
• It was yellows dressed as reds. ..
  
• It was Seh Daeng's 'ronin warriors'. ..
  
• It was reds dressed as reds but they aren't real reds. ..
  

The pathetic excuses and constant back pedaling is almost tedious to follow .. ..

This hospital incident sure backfired in stirring up any public support for the red shirts, errr sorry strike red shirts as I see they are now the 'colorless shirts'.

The way they are going the next incarnation will probably be the 'brainless shirts'. ..

Okay, I KNOW this is a thread about the thai political chasm which divides this country right now...

BUT!! I suggest EVERYONE take a giant step back from their political posting penchants and a BIG step back from their p/c monitors too!!

Let's listen to a song called คนไทยหัวใจเดียวกัน, (transliteration; Kon Thai Hua Jai Dieow Gan) and the translation "All Thai People's Hearts Are The Same" written by Sek Loso (Seksan Sukpimai), and played by 4 very well known thai bands:

Micro; w/their lead singer Ampon (Ampol Lampoon)

Loso; w/their lead singer/guitarist; Sek (Seksan Sukpimai)

Big Ass; w/their lead singer; Dax (Ekarat Wongcharat),

Body Slam; w/their lead singer; Dtoon (Athiwara Khongmalai).

At first blush a semi intelligent person might actually be lead to believe that they are singing about the political division in thai society; that all thais have the same hearts and want what is good for the country.

However, upon further examination, especially when you see the MASS advertising campaign that their sponsor Chang Beer did on nearly ALL the downtown busses; it comes down to the meaning; ALL thais are united in that they like to drink Chang beer

Sad really, as it's a great song w/great lyrics, (if you can't understand thai ask your wife or significant other to translate it ). It is especially poignant given the current situation. It could actually be a uniting song, instead Chang turned it into a bullshit beer promotional campaign.

What is actually interesting is just before the lead break, they sing (ช้างเอาเลย) "Chang Aow Leui!!" which when fighting in ancient times meant "bring on the elephants", but now evidently means "bring on the Chang Beer!!".. ..

Thumbs DOWN for Chang Beer for capitalizing on this bad situation for ALL thais.

(and thumbz down for me not spell checking this first!!)

If indeed the big picture is to bow down to the red-mob (correction the now colorless-mob) which is clearly a minority of the overall thai population, than I guess he's not seeing the big picture.

Abhisit already has said FOR THE GOOD OF THE COUNTRY, and NOT just the benefit of the few, he would be willing to forego his full term dissolve the Lower House and call for elections (the Demz full term is actually until the END of 2011).

Quite the compromise if you look at it from the point of view that the Demz are running the government under the same set of laws which were in place when the PPP ran it under Samak/Somchai. That was until the PPP ran afoul of something called the LAW, and until Newin Chidchob flipped to the Demz side with nearly 40 MP's giving them a majority just LIKE the PPP had when he was on their side.

Sadly for the colorless-rabble, and their equally clueless and all too many leaders; (Whacky Dr Weng, Issan Rambo; Suporn, former pop star turned rappelling aficionado; Arisman, and the hate spewing Jatuporn) that is not good enough.

FWIW: I think Veera Musikapong is the key to unlocking this entire thing, although he's rarely allowed to speak anymore on stage being a proponent of actual negotiation as opposed to violence. He's not often even in the pics of the red leaders mugging like chimps for the cameras down there at Rachaprasong. Sad really.

Now if looking at the big picture is a soft handed approach designed to contain and eventually disperse protestors with a minimum loss of life, well. .. Other than the April 10 rout of the thai soldiers when faced with the mysterious ‘third-hand’ ‘ronin-warriors’, or ‘men-in-black’ (Seh Daeng’s storm troopers) , I’d say he’s doing a remarkable job trying to run the ENTIRE country to the benefit of the thai populace.