kwilco

As shown any in depth discussion on Road safety in Thailand can prove very difficult and confusing for some as they simply have never actually thought about it...preferring to resort to a bunch of over simplistic cliches. I've been studying and writing on road safety since the 1990s and especially in Thailand since 2000. Road safety is a discipline that goes unnoticed people tend to think that because they can drive, they are "experts" ( I hate that word!) on road safety. It's a bit like thinking they a qualified in medicine because they've been in hospital or are educationslists because they went to school.

Perceptions of Road safety in Thailand Why can’t people understand road safety in Thailand? “The one thing that unites all human beings, regardless of age, gender, religion, economic status, or ethnic background, is that, deep down inside, we all believe that we are above-average drivers.” – Dave Barry When it comes to road safety – “seeing is believing” is most definitely NOT the case…. The 2 main enemies of clear thinking on road safety are confirmation bias and cognitive dissonance…… (take note Dickie) It is important to overcome them…. Confirmation bias (“confirmation bias,” the tendency people have to embrace information that supports their beliefs and reject information that contradicts them). E.G. – if you decide that drivers of pickup trucks are very rude, very time you see one doing a manoeuvre you don’t approve of you say “look, see what I mean” – but subconsciously you ignore the other vehicles and drivers doing the same. Cognitive dissonance (Sometimes learning new information can lead to feelings of cognitive dissonance. For example, if you engage in a behaviour that you later learn is harmful, it can lead to feelings of discomfort. People sometimes deal with this either by finding ways to justify their behaviours or findings ways to discredit or ignore new information.) E.G. – when you find out that statistically your belief about Fortuner drivers isn’t true – you ignore the evidence because it conflicts with your long-held belief and continue to pick out Fortuners as culprits. A common sign of cognitive dissonance is asking for citations (sealioning) rather than accepting the point or finding a proper reasoned argument against it. Overcoming these prejudices helps to get a realistic appreciation of the reality of the situation in Thailand and then to assess one’s personal driving skills. To understand road safety, it is advisable to drop the concept of “bad drivers” altogether and consider it in terms of human error within a Road Safety environment; a holistic approach to Thailand’s road environment” … and then consider how YOU fit into this either as a road user or even just a bystander. It can require a bit of soul-searching but in the end might make Thai roads safer for yourself and others. Perceptions in Thailand seem very skewed as is reflected in government policies and most comments you see in the media – whether the main news or social media. Most of the advice you see on driving in Thailand seems to be based purely on the “blame game” aimed at “other” (Thai) drivers and nape of the neck dictums from politicians trying to look as if they are doing something. - This has long been a discredited view in road safety science. Preconceptions and prejudices: - Foreign drivers in particular in Thailand often get overwhelmed by the unfamiliar traffic environment. This transmutes itself into criticism of other (native) drivers who seem far more comfortable on the roads. This quite often takes on a very aggressive and condescending nature. Comments by foreigners on road safety in Thailand are mostly just derogatory. Rather than any critical thinking or research, people simply use either anecdotal evidence or personal observation e.g. false (or politician’s) syllogisms[1] that don’t make for a well thought out, sound argument. Most of this advice I’d suggest is ill considered and at times downright wrong. Add to this a lack of experience by those handing out advice or any real knowledge of the factors contributing to road safety in Thailand (or anywhere else in the world for that matter) and the result is not so much opinions as assumptions and wildly inaccurate assertions. Just because someone can operate a car, doesn’t make them an “expert” on road safety. Many ignore the issues of road safety and focus on what they see as “bad driving”, and then conclude that driving in Thailand is that it is a prohibitively perilous thing to do and that this is largely down to Thai people being useless drivers. In fact, Thais have grown up in the Thai driving environment and are much more accustomed to it than most foreigners. They have the skills for survival. It is often foreigners who fail to understand and adapt to a new driving environment and try to stick to the old rules and conventions that dominated in their old home country…. they do so at their peril. Driving by the rules – your rules – is just not the right way to drive in Thailand. It is like trying to fit a square peg into a round hole. What they consider to be experience is in reality brainwashing or conditioning. Statistically, driving in a 4-wheeled private vehicle is a lot safer than people would have you believe. The road death rate for these in Thailand is just about the same as it is in the USA. Most of the opinions that appear on chat web sites etc., are by people who issue a series of tirades and vitriol against Thai drivers. Virtually every opinion is thoroughly negative. Many posters also suggest that because the roads are too dangerous to consider driving oneself, a driver or public transport was preferable. This is of course highly illogical as they have already accused Thai drivers of being the “worst in the world” so why would they let one drive them? On one hand they admit they aren’t competent enough to drive on Thai roads and then say all Thai drivers are dangerous and no good at driving??? What is more important is how competent a driver YOU are and how good is your ability to understand, acclimatise and adapt to the driving environment in Thailand. My experience is that many foreigners, even those who have lived in the country for a long time fail to grasp these concepts. “Thai roads are dangerous and all Thai drivers are reckless morons”. – so are you! Just take a moment to consider how people who say things like this see themselves and other road users. They have pre-set ideas about how others should or do drive and when they see a mistake of any kind it just serves to confirm this, but they are oblivious to any evidence to the contrary – this is a combination of confirmation bias and cognitive dissonance combined with a Dunning Kruger[2] effect appreciation of their own driving skills. How people form their opinions on driving can be quite tenuous. Yet they then talk as self-appointed authorities on the subject without any logic, reason or evidence. When it comes to some subjects, people quite unreasonably consider themselves to be “experts” – Healthcare, Teaching and education and Road safety seem to be prime examples of this – · Because they went to hospital, they are be “experts” on healthcare · because they went to school, they are “experts” on education · because they can drive a car, they are “experts” on road safety Everyone seems to think they are superb drivers and better than all those other road users. Expert - a reverse fallacious appeal to authority, often used by people to attack the messenger rather than the message. People without any argument seem to believe that they can discredit anyone who says something they don’t agree with or didn’t know, by suggesting they aren’t an “expert” or asking them why they think they are an “expert”. As if any opinion other than an “experts” must automatically be invalid.[3] People accept archaic ideas on road safety without question but things have moved on and this is reflected in the dramatic drop in traffic injury figures of countries that have adopted the “new” thinking. E.g. the “Safe System”. The problem is that if someone is told something they haven’t thought about before and even if it is backed it up with logic and reason, cognitive dissonance kicks in and they ignore even the most powerful evidence. In Thailand, the default position for foreigners is to turn on the vitriol when talking about their fellow road users... they automatically exclude themselves from the equation and whilst implying that their driving skills are far superior to those of any Thai people. It also seems that many foreigners who don’t even drive themselves like to get in on the act and get just as vociferous. However, it does underline that road safety isn’t just about driving, it’s about ROAD USERS - and that includes everyone on or near the road, pedestrians, stall holders, elephants, gammons etc etc……. On the whole though, if we were to believe everything the non-Thais posting on chat forums said, we wold have to conclude that almost everyone is better than the average driver! Which is mathematically impossible... Detailed anecdotal descriptions of how “bad” other motorists driving achieve nothing. Without analysis, all they do is reinforce those people’s prejudices about driving in Thailand - i.e. blaming people or even the entire nation, rather than considering the underlying causes. There is also the temptation to attempt simplifying matters by looking for one single solution for the whole problem; a sort of road safety panacea. A few common truths about how motorists see themselves versus other road users “Have you ever noticed that anybody driving slower than you is an idiot, and anyone going faster than you is a maniac?” - George Carlin “ ….. there are only three types of drivers; the too fast, the timid and oneself.” ― Virginia Graham, Say Please “There are two things no man will admit he cannot do well, drive and make love.” – Stirling Moss “The survey by Michelin North America found that the majority of Americans don’t trust other drivers and say they witness unsafe driving behaviour regularly. At the same time, an overwhelming majority - 81 percent - remain supremely confident in their own abilities behind the wheel.” [4] These were some observations resulting from research done by the Centre for Transport and Society - UK.... The public know that driver behaviour is a major contributory factor in the vast majority of road accidents... (Cauzard, 2003) - But there is a consistent view that OTHERS drive in a riskier manner than individuals themselves do - (King and Parker, 2008) It’s not just driving, older children and adolescents think they have good attitude and skills towards road safety but believe that others especially those in their peer group do not - (Tolmie. 2006). Individuals do not believe they are dangerous on the roads but at the same time fervently believe others are. • I am not likely to be responsible for an accident; others are likely to be responsible. Therefore, little I can do. • Hence, less likely to need to “plan to avoid them” • Campaigns aimed at dangerous driving are for “other” drivers not themselves. • Such campaigns re-emphasise this difference (2CV, 2008 and Flaming Research, 2008) • The third-person effect (Davison, 1983). • High support for enforcement, engineering solutions and education • But not for themselves - for other people. However, the reality can be a long way from these benighted perspectives. [1]Politician’s syllogism: - All cats have four legs. My dog has four legs. Therefore, my dog is a cat. [2] Dunning-Kruger effect: - a cognitive bias whereby people with limited knowledge or competence in a given intellectual or social domain greatly overestimate their own knowledge or competence in that domain relative to objective criteria or to the performance of their peers or of people in general. - https://www.britannica.com/science/Dunning-Kruger-effect [3] “Experts” feel the need to know every piece of information before they start a project and constantly look for new certifications or trainings to improve their skills. They won’t apply for a job if they don’t meet all the criteria in the posting, and they might be hesitant to ask a question in class or speak up in a meeting at work because they’re afraid of looking stupid if they don’t already know the answer. [4] https://www.cnbc.com/2015/10/23/george-carlin-was-right-other-drivers-are-idiots-and-maniacs.html

"cutting people off without a glance, running red lights and driving the wrong way" - are generalisations used to reinforce the idea that Thai people as a race or bad drivers … We see in this thread some wild bigoted assessments of driving in Thailand. Attributing driving behaviours to an entire race or nationality is unfair and inaccurate. Just like any country, Thailand has a diverse population with varying levels of driving skills and adherence to traffic laws. Thy fail to provide any statistical data or reliable sources that offer a more balanced view of road safety in Thailand. Generalizations do not reflect the reality of overall traffic safety trends or individual driving habits. I have given an overview to explain driving norms and behaviours in Thailand can vary widely across different regions and cities within Thailand. It's way more constructive to discuss specific issues or challenges in road safety rather than making sweeping generalizations Sharing personal experiences or anecdotes usually resorts to exercises in confirmation bias .This de-humanizes the discussion and offers only a racist perspective. Blanket statements can perpetuate stereotypes and harm perceptions of entire groups of people unfairly. People fail to approach these points calmly and logically, using critical thinking techniques. Foreigners observations on driving in Thailand are full of cognitive dissonance, confirmation bias and racial prejudice - backed up only by anecdotal evidence Remember – the plural of anecdote is not data! Addressing perceptions of driving in Thailand, particularly when influenced by cognitive dissonance, confirmation bias, and racial prejudice, requires an objective approach. One needs to start by acknowledging that perceptions of driving in any country can be influenced by personal biases and limited experiences and admit that this opens the door to a more balanced discussion. People fail utterly to realise the limitations of anecdotal evidence. Individual experiences are only valid in context and they never represent the entire reality of driving in Thailand. Look at broader statistics and studies for a more comprehensive understanding. As I said earlier – foreign drivers are obsessively ethnocentric. Driving norms vary significantly across cultures. What may seem chaotic or reckless to one person might be perceived differently within the local context. It is important to understand cultural differences in interpreting driving behaviours. This will make your own driving so much less stressful – in short if you find yourself spouting a litany of “Thai driving errors” – the problem is most likely with you, not the other drivers. – What is needed understanding and empathy toward cultural differences rather than a sense of entitlement that the foreign driver is both superior and better at driving. The use of stereotyping has highly questionable validity, What is needed is an analysis of specific examples and consider whether they truly reflect the majority of drivers in Thailand or if they are exaggerated perceptions. People’s perspective often lacks an objective or b balanced approach; objectivity needs to be applied along with critical thinking methodology when discussing driving behaviour in Thailand. People vastly under estimate Thai drivers good behaviour on roads – for instance you are less likely to die in a 4 wheeled vehicle in Thailand than in th USA. A more nuanced and balanced perspective, can help challenge and mitigate biases and prejudices often associated with those anecdotal observations of driving in Thailand. We need to challenge negative stereotypes and promote a more inclusive perspective.

Thai Road History and Culture If you know nothing about the past, you can’t learn from it – QED Dick. Thailand is in love with the automobile especially the pickup, SUV and the motorcycle - it is a transitional society; rapidly changing from agricultural to industrial. Thailand has a motor industry that consistently ranks around 10th in the top twenty of world producers... That’s about the same as the UK. The class system and road safety - Thailand has its own peculiar problems. Sakdina is the archaic cast system that dominated Thailand until the 20th century. It still hasn’t been fully swept away and it manifests itself in many aspects of Thai life, including the roads. Thailand has one of the world’s most unequal societies, and even its roads have a rigid hierarchy, with the poor far more likely to be killed in accidents than the well-off and well-connected.[1] The concept that any race or nation has a greater proportion of stupid drivers is just not valid. The ability to drive safely and responsibly isn't determined by race or nationality. Factors like education, experience, and adherence to traffic laws road and vehicle engineering play a much larger role in determining driving competence than any racial or national identity. It's important to approach such matters with objectivity and avoid generalizations that can perpetuate stereotypes. The reality is that other societies are simply better at stopping their stupid ones from being stupid. There may a lack of enforcement and training, different driving conditions and customs, but to dismiss all Thai drivers as innately or racially stupid is really showing a profound lack of understanding of both Thailand AND driving. The term “culture” is often used by racists to support these sort of generalisations and stereotypes, but it isn’t culture it’s a racist cliché. Culture means growth, it’s not static, it changes all the time but it often has roots deep in the past. Sweeping generalisations based on race/nationality just don’t cut the mustard. Driving Habits in Thailand When it comes to actually driving, there is a lot of behaviour that is unfamiliar to foreigners; the key is to adjust to it as soon as possible. E.G. - flashing lights, horn and hazard lights; these are indeed often used in circumstances that differ from “the West”. However bear in mind that they all have well-defined general functions, these are just regional variations. Internationally - Horn and flashing lights are to indicate your presence and the hazards are to indicate that your vehicle is stationary in a “hazardous” position. All other uses, West or East are in fact just implied or inferences that we draw from the particular situation we are in at the time. Then there are the tales of U-turns, traffic going the wrong way on dual carriageways and all those other “crazy” things that are accepted as everyday driving over here - no lights, no bodywork, no wheels, no looking, whatever... it really doesn’t take that long is a modicum of intelligence to work out and adjust to what’s happening or going to happen - if you fail to adjust, “som nam naa” - your journey may well come to an abrupt end. Some knowledge of Thai culture can help explain some of this. The expression “it’s Thai culture” itself has to be treated with some circumspection. It’s a get-out for all sorts of ills and quirks. In practice, it’s usually just a cover up for someone’s own latent prejudice or even racism. Just a justification for a prejudice. However, a background knowledge on how certain aspects of Thai cultural or religious life connects to driving helps to understand and anticipate some of the foibles you are likely to encounter on the road. I’ve mentioned the Thai acceptance of corruption in authorities. I’ve already mentioned the iconography of symbols used on vehicles and the superstitions, icons and emblems on trucks etc. but how does this affect every day driving? Many dismiss this as frivolous or pointless and then hang a St Christopher medal on the rear view mirror. In Western countries we have grown up with the car for over ¾ of a century, most of Westerners are 3rd 4th or even 5th generation drivers. Driving is accepted as an integral part of life. Our “national psyches” are geared to this, as are our road systems and behaviour on them. Some of the systems we are used to can date back to those great road-builders the Romans (who it seems probably drove on the left). In Europe before the arrival of the motorcar, we already used a lot of roads and had established some basic highway codes and practices - the roundabout has its roots in C18th Britain, born out of the need to manoeuvre horse and carriages in front of rich housing projects. Driving on the left, which was legally established in the early C19th in the UK, is said to stem from the way we handled horses. Driving on the right was introduced by Napoleon who needed this at least in part to move large cargo carts along the roads of France. Thailand is different. In Thailand, ask any car driver if their parents had a car and the vast majority will answer in the negative; mass motorised transport is a relatively recent thing here, it has taken hold rapidly together with Thailand’s rampant industrialisation. Including a huge protected motor industry. The number of motor vehicles has leapt from 2 million in 1981 to 27.5 million in 2010. By now the total is over 40 million over half being motorcycles. Before this, the main form of transport in the Kingdom was by river. There were of course some hand or animal pulled carts but these were very localised and in much smaller numbers than Europe where an elaborate road system had existed alongside rivers for centuries. Many of the roads in Thailand were built or improved in the C20th for military purposes by the Japanese and then the US in the 50s and 60s. The first “real” road in Thailand was Charoen Krung Road, built in 1860s by Rama IV and helped to service the European quarter in Bangkok. This marked the beginning of the change from river to road transport. Thailand currently only has less than 200 km of genuine motorway (compared to 3700 km of motorway in UK), but has announced plans to extend that to nearly 5000 km; a rather controversial plan that was first conceived in the 1990s. The Old Highways Most of the old highways connecting BKK to the rural cities were built with US aid during the Vietnam war in the 50s, 60s and early 70s to supply its military bases and to facilitate the movement of troops and arms. There were 4 main highways in Thailand that were developed largely after the war into the 1950s. mostly with American help although the chief Thai engineer was trained in the UK. 1. Phahonyothin Road (Highway 1)[2], - Bkk to Tachileik, Burma – started before war. 2. Mittraphap Road (Highway 2)[3] - the first Thai highway to use both asphalt and concrete. It received the name "Thanon Mittraphap" on 20 February 1957. 3. Sukhumvit (Highway 3)[4] – Bkk to Cambodia. Phra Bisal Sukhumvit was trained in the USA and was responsible for starting the highway system in the 1930s and 40s. he was responsible for a rapid increase in Thailand's road infrastructure during the 1930s and 1940s. Not a supporter of the Japanese, he also developed a few roads in Thailand during WW2. It was probably the Japanese who consolidated the “drive on the left” rule for Thailand. 4. Phetkasem Road (Highway 4)[5]. – Longest in Thailand finished 1950; the A4 was finished in the 1950s under the charge of an English trained Thai engineer It's important to understand the history and culture of a country to understand their roads, and the blinkered lack of understanding by so many on this thread goes a long way to explaining why so many foreigners are so useless as drivers - they simply don't understand what is going on around them -

I got my last 5 year just before Covid - originally I got all my renewals in Chonburi - so I guess it varies from area to area. - not unusual for Thai govt departments.

I got my last 5 year just before Covid - originally I got all my renewals in Chonburi - so I guess it varies from area to area. - not unusual for Thai govt departments.

Most expat/foreign drivers are very ethnocentric in their views of driving in Thailand and even after years in the country fail to grasp the basics of Thai culture and apply that to the driving environment. Driving in Thailand the influence of boats and Rivers “Rivers and canals are synonymous with Thai life and culture”[1] (Batra, 2014). Before WW2 - rivers were the main transport routes in Thailand. The power and influence that the “river” still has on daily Thai life should not be underestimated. The canals date back to well before the founding of Bangkok in 1782 and were the primary means of transportation, a source of food and water, part of ceremonies in particular Loy Krathong and many other activities. Before Bangkok, the ancient Thai capital of Ayutthaya was dubbed “Venice of the East” by the first European visitors in the 17th century. Important structures, such as markets and temples, were built on the river and canal banks. This in turn influenced the development of the city and its layout. With the introduction of the automobile and roads, the role of the canal system in Thai life was reduced but things like the rules of transport remained embedded in the Thai psyche. As roads took over, buildings were constructed facing them and canals have been paved over to become streets.” Long-tail boats, Thailand’s version of gondolas, were the mainstay of Thai transport; they literally kept the Thai economy afloat. Originally the boats were mostly skulled with some small sails. The relatively still waters of the delta rivers and canals being suitable for these flat-bottom boats to glide over the surface. So, Thailand’s transport history and development was for centuries predominantly centred on rivers. Thai water culture influences all aspects of Thai life. “Kuaytiao reua” boat noodles restaurants still have a boat for display or shape their counters like boats. Buildings like temples, schools, hotels and condominiums are frequently built in shapes that mimic boats. Decorations on Vehicles The roads are no different - The ornate decorations on buses, trucks and other vehicles have most of their roots in the decor of boats and barges. The iconography of symbols on commercial vehicles is a fascinating topic of its own. Mandalas, Gods of speed and those icons of Serpico to ward off corrupt police. Taxis and many private vehicles have ornate shrines in the front that are just the same as the boats with offerings to Mae Ya Nang. You will also see various other icons. Yants, similar to tattoos are usually drawn above rear-view mirrors by monks who bless the vehicle. Images of Thai kings, often on a bank note, decorate dashboards on taxis and other commercial vehicles. Goddess Mae Ya Nang Many Thai people believe Mae Ya Nang to be a female spirit that resides in the body of the boat, it is also said that Mae Ya Nang is the Goddess of journeys. By paying respect to Mae Ya Nang passengers can expect her protection and a safe journey. Thailand imports and then “adapts”. Adding bits of tradition and culture to whatever it is they have taken a shine to...the car is no exception. Look inside any truck bus, taxi or car in Thailand and you’ll see evidence of this. Steering wheels, the rooves, and dashboards are adorned with symbols and rituals taken from boats - Garlands hang from the “stem” - the rear-view mirror - shrines to Mae Ya Nang. And so it goes on almost every car, truck or bus.. The general public still pay at least a nodding respect to Mae Ya Nang and it obviously influences their attitude to driving. (NB in Europe, the West and Catholic countries, saluting of spirits under bridges and the ubiquitous St Christopher medals in cars). At every traffic light you can be offered a garland of Jasmin flowers (phuang malai)[2] to hang of your mirror to show respect to this goddess. (BTW - it’s 20 baht a time and give them the old one for recycling) “I’m in a boat” Anyone who has owned or moored a river boat will recognise the similarities with the double or three deep “mooring” in car parks and the moorings for boats on a bank or jetty; vehicles are left with no brake on so they can be pushed out of the way like any boat at a mooring. The proposition that the Thai national psyche is orientated towards river transport is to me particularly appealing. It could indeed account for a lot of road traffic behaviour that seems to show an abundance of those characteristics. In towns it flows much more as if on water than on asphalt. Even out on the open road you can see behaviour that fits more with navigating a boat on a river than the western idea of driving a car. The sweeping lines taken around bend across the lanes of traffic, no sudden halts just gentle drifting out into mainstreams. Swinging into the current from a tributary (side road) - The contraflow traffic moving slowly alongside the bank (i.e. - hard shoulder or central reservation) sheltering from the oncoming current… moving off so slowly so as not to upset the load…and of course parking nose first - putting in the bow and hoping the stern will drift in round behind, all are perfect examples of how to handle a boat on a river. The Thai driver - anthropologically speaking at least, seems to be in a boat. When this culture is added to the speed capability of road-going motor vehicles, you get a potentially unsettling mixture of fluidity and danger. So, next time you’re out driving, just keep repeating to yourself “I’m in a boat, I’m in a boat, I’m in a boat” and you may be pleasantly surprised to see how it all comes together…

I renewed mine in Samui - had all the tests are you saying you didn't o the depth perception or reflex tests?

what's the matter know nothing? "If you want to keep your full licence you already have to take a medical with a registered GP."

there are at least two eye tests when renewing in Thailand, the colour blindness test and the 3d test - a basic colour-blindness test, peripheral vision check, and a reaction-time test using a brake pedal simulator - do you have a Thai licence? Have you renewed it?

so wrong again! You have made serious errors in EVERY post so far - you really should take time off and get yourself up to speed.

there are already vision tests when you renew a Thai licence - at 70 in UK you can self certify at 70 but you will automatically lose parts of your licence - e,g, Light goods vehicles and passenger vehicles. You can keep you M/C licence but don't buy a big RV, you won't be covered. If you want to keep your full licence you already have to take a medical with a registered GP.

richard_smith237 - is running around like a headless chicken - he does this every time I post - there is a pause as he scours Google and cherry picks a few quotes he can plagiarise. This time he has quoted me and then the 1979 Thai road traffic "rule book" However the Vienna treaty of which Thailand became a signatory supersedes and prior bilateral agreements - it also is worth noting how in order to gainsay my post he can only fixate on one point realling out pages of rubbish. Bilateral agreements that conflict with provisions of a later multilateral treaty may be considered superseded or modified to the extent of the conflict. This ensures that international law remains coherent and that countries adhere to agreed-upon standards in their relations with all treaty parties. Therefore, if the Vienna Convention on Road Traffic signed by Thailand conflicts with any provisions of prior bilateral agreements with the UK regarding road traffic regulations, the Vienna Convention would generally take precedence. Thailand would be expected to harmonize its domestic laws with the provisions of the Vienna Convention, potentially rendering conflicting bilateral agreements ineffective in those specific areas covered by the treaty.

AH! I see! but isn't that gainsaying?

THe OP is about etiquette - and foreigners need to drive accordingly - making little "hard and fast" rules about Thai driving just show an inability to adapt to the driving environment here. THis may happen but if you rely on it 100% you will be very disappointed. I know of one Thai woman whose driving instructor told her not to indicate until making the turn. Te point being if you are driving in Thailand you need to be ready for a lot of unfamiliar possibilities - Thai drivers are. A while ago driving on route A331 between Pattaya and Rayong I started slowing down and the car in front did a right turn - my passenger asked how I knew he was turning right - It was obvious by the way he was positioning himself on the road - a signal would have been nicer but if you read the road you can see,

@richard_smith237 has an unerring ability to get everything wrong in his relentless effort to gainsay anything I ever post - his theory is based on the concept that if he hasn't heard of it it doesn't exist. but his knowledge is severely restricted.

Sadly you are wrong again - you seem unaware that Thailand is now signatory to the 1968 Vienna road traffic convention since 2020.

Richard -= I don't k now why you bother - you're just a gainsayer and no-nothing.

no such thing.

Rules for driving in Thailand Expats in Thailand are almost to a man/woman “bad drivers” – they have a false belief that they are “superb drivers” and that Thai people are “bad drivers” – this is fundamentally a racist attitude. There is stupid, stupider and racist these expats qualify on all levels not only are they racist they have no understanding of road safety in Thailand – they see it from an expat-centric point of view without any real understanding of rod safety or how to drive. Firstly they seldom wonder what rules and behaviours should be adhered across the Kingdom, they just assume they are the same as at home. Another mistake they make is thinking that Thailand’s roads are “generally quite good” -this epitomises the uninformed thinking that permeates the expat community Then there are the rules, laws and behaviours that need to be understood – as a competent driver you don’t “follow” these you will instinctively adapt – but as most foreign drivers have no instinct they can’t and don’t. The reason is they come from countries that have adopted modern scientific road safety policies. Road safety is not about “bad driving” – a purely subjective construct, it is understood to be a public health issue and their authorities have spent years implementing road safety policies. The downside of this is that people form these countries are unaware - and think the lack of road deaths is down to their “good driving” – they couldn’t be more wrong – the roads, rules and regulations are all designed to protect these idiots from themselves. “Bad Drivers” exist all over the world – road safety systems are designed to protect them from themselves. So let’s look at the list above and see how it can help. The Legal Driving Age The legal age limit in Thailand in which to drive is 18 years old. – in 4 wheeled private vehicle – it is possible to ride a motorcycle when you are 15. However this isn’t that different from the USA and many other countries. For instance Most states allow individuals to get a learner's permit around the age of 15 or 16, which allows supervised driving with a licensed adult in the car. In Thailand, potential drivers must take courses in a driving school before gaining a driving license. - there is far too much emphasis put on the importance of a driving test - most drivers took there's at a time when tests were little more than a formality and the long term effects on good driving are lost to the accumulation of bad habits SPEED LIMITS – the national speed limit is 90 kph – but they have now introduced many pointless variations. One of Thailand’s biggest problems is a total lack of properly trained road traffic engineers. Anyone who has driven round the country in the last couple of years will see that the traffic engineers have gone mad with road markings, surface colourings and speed limits. Everywhere 30 kph for schools are marked with colourful decorations all over the place – the 50 kph and derestriction signs are seldom it the right place and it’s not uncommon to see signs next to each other with different speed limits. Major roads that are not up to motorway specification are being derestricted up to 120 kph which makes them even more dangerous that before and minimum speed limits in “fast” lanes have been introduced along with variable limits – none of this is properly enforced and absolutely none has been scientifically researched before introduction. It’s not uncommon to see 120 posted on the gantry and a 90 sign illuminated next to it. The amount of traffic that simply ignores these limits is absurd and shows the utter chaos that exists on Thai roads. Even the placing and formats of these signs is inconsistent as if erected at whim. Most foreign motorbike users are blithely unaware their speed limit is generally set at 80 km/h, or even that they are not allowed on motorways and expressways. Traffic laws are changing quite a bit at the moment but without any clear unified policy, it is just load of mish mash that some over enthusiastic amateurs have thrown together. Of course enforcement is totally inconsistent by untrained officers. It is difficult to say it’s important to keep up to date with these speed limits and the different types of roads as the police can’t enforce them and the courts can’t follow up with fines. So many of these limits bear no relation to the road that they are imposed on, rather it seems they have just planted a few signs that were left in stock. Traffic road signs – road signs are basically international – there are a few exceptions around the world - however the most important thing about the international road sign system is it uses graphics and the way we reaction is largely subliminal – unfortunately Thai road traffic engineers don’t seem to have grasped this concept. “Thailand has five different types of road signs. It should not be hard to read them as they all feature the English language in addition to Thai.” The golden rule is you don’t actually read road signs – as said you recognise them and you reaction is subliminal language is secondary and the graphics tell you what is going on.– unfortunately Thai road signs don’t understand this. Right of way on the left – this is one of the most misunderstood road rules in Thailand and so many drivers fall foul of it. Thai Traffic Law states that when two moving vehicles reach a junction the car in the left lane is given the right of way. Unless there is a designation of a principle roadway mark, the vehicle on that mark has the right of way. Drivers in France and even Netherlands will recognise this as the inverse of the “priority from the right rules on their roads. For years this was a source of serious crashes in France and totally misunderstood by British drivers. Nowadays the law still applies but clear signages and rationalisation of road design has largely eliminated the problem. Nevertheless it still remains embedded in French road culture – it is embedded in Thai road culture too but sadly road design and markings have not developed to mitigate the problem. The most classic example in Thailand is when a foreign drivers yells “HE JUST CAME OUT IN FRONT OF ME!” – That’s because he can! Roundabouts are a particular problem - One example is the roundabout sign….there are 2 versions! They are both circular in shape and feature a arrows in a clockwise direction, but that doesn’t mean that it is illegal to change lanes. “Drivers must also yield when necessary” – but you have to define “when necessary” Roundabouts There is no unified design for roundabouts and no national public awareness campaign for these relatively new additions to Thai roads. Using a roundabout in Thailand follows similar principles to other countries, but it's important to be aware of local driving habits and rules. Here’s a guide to using a roundabout correctly in Thailand: The main problem appears to be that the priority to the left rule has to be reversed for roundabouts – This leads to mayhem There are in fact TWO different signs used for roundabouts and markings are often non-existant- They are also frequent “creative” variations on roundabouts giving priority to vehicles in certain lanes – this is just WRONG. In Thailand, the priority to the left rule indeed differs from some other countries, especially in the context of roundabouts. Here’s how the priority typically works in Thai roundabouts: Entering the Roundabout - Unlike in some countries where vehicles already in the roundabout have priority, in Thailand, there's often an unwritten rule where vehicles entering the roundabout expect those already inside to yield to them. This is actually against both the rules and common sense. The result is that if you are approaching a roundabout and intend to enter it, you might find that vehicles inside the roundabout slow down or yield to you to allow you to enter. So, once you are inside the roundabout, you actually have priority BUT you must still exercise caution and be prepared to yield to vehicles entering from your left, as they may not always adhere to the give correct priority conventions. Exiting the Roundabout: - you should use indicators whilst ON the roundabout – (e.g. indicating right when you enter if you are using the third exit is not enough – you indicate left when you exit).When exiting, use your indicators ASAP to signal your intention to other drivers. As always, be mindful of motorbikes and other small vehicles that might manoeuvre inside you on the left. Local driving habits and customs can vary with almost every roundabout so be aware and always stay vigilant and adapt to the flow of traffic around you. Understanding and getting used to adapting quickly to these local driving customs can help you navigate roundabouts safely and smoothly in Thailand. As you approach roundabouts you should officially yield to traffic on the right, i.e. already in the circle. Traffic already in the circle has the right of way. – this is international but not fully practiced in Thailand. Use your turn signals to indicate your intention to enter and exit the roundabout.- treat it as you would any other piece of road. Lane discipline on roundabouts depends a lot on if the lanes are marked at all – in Thailand they usually aren’t. Thai roundabouts are not consistently marked and lanes can actually disappear on exiting. Some roundabouts have parallel lanes others have spirals and some are “irregular” or have no markings at all. However, like any other road you should get into to the left lane to exit if there is more than one lane. Remember to use your turn signals to indicate your intention to exit the roundabout. Lane changing is permitted but sudden lane changes within the roundabout can be difficult and dangerous especially on one without proper markings. Despite what you may experience it is the law In Thailand, that vehicles entering a roundabout must give way to traffic already on the roundabout unless signs or road markings indicate otherwise. You need to be aware that frequently vehicles might not yield properly, so proceed cautiously even if you have the right of way. ROAD SIGNS - In general though road signage in Thailand is appalling. Signs are erected at random and often in poorly visible places – hidden by billboards or vegetation. In most countries signs are placed at standard distances from whatever they are warning of…..they are familiar and positioned to be at “eyelevel” for motorists – in Thailand this is not taken into consideration, which means not only do they no signify correctly, it takes longer for motorists to ingest and react to the information – this may only be fractions of a second but in terms of road safety, this represents several metres of road. Foreign motorists should familiarise themselves with the various types of signs as quickly as possible and then be prepared for them to be put in the oddest places. Using your horn – is not acceptable in Thailand – it is part of the avoidance of confrontation culture that permeates all of Thai interactions. At times it seems that Thai drivers would rather run into someone than use a horn. Flashing lights and hooting are internationally recognised ways of indicating your presence – with hooting Thai culture would prefer to remain silent. Flashing lights basically mean the same all over the world BUT – various countries have developed secondary uses – in the UK, it means “OK come on out, I’ve seen you” – in Thailand it means “stay where you are, I coming through” – the initial meaning if indicating presence is still there, it’s what to do after that is different – you need to be aware of context – If you see Thai people using their horn for no apparent reason, a quick glance around you will see a Spirit house or a place where Spirit houses are disposed of…..temples do not receive a toot. Switching lanes requires a turn or hand signal – which applies in every county in the world – only a “bad driver” wouldn’t do that. However lane markings on merging lanes in Thailand appear to have been designed by a mad man. Any driver worth their salt will be aware of their surroundings. You don’t make assumptions based on driving at home, you use your mirrors Pedestrian crossing in Thailand were totally ignored but now the fabulous road painting engineers have been let loose on some roads with some ridiculous results. You need to heed the pedestrian crossings but be aware whilst you are stopped many vehicles will pass you on either side – so don’t be too keen to wave tht old lady across in front of you only to seen her swept off her feet by some less considerate motorist who could see what you were doing. There is now an increasing fashion to designate lanes to cyclists etc – but don’t be confused by these and the hard shoulders on many larger roads – these are used by motorbikes but are NOT M/C lanes. In some areas miles and miles of roads are decorated with cycle lanes, many of which are either overgrown or used by motorcycles. The default law in Thailand is that pedestrians have right of way – however one needs to take into account how this might surprise a motorist. There is no such thing as jay walking – see my post about being in a boat. If you live continuously in Thailand for more than 3 months you are expected to have a Thai driving licence – you may find after this period that you are no longer covered by insurance. The rules of parking When parking, make sure you park in the direction of the traffic. You can be clamped – normally by someone in authority who’s short of cash. Parking is fairly self-explanatory and of course most shopping malls provide free parking. I love the way that in car parks, extra vehicles cab park across already parked cars – just remember to leave the car in neutral with the handbrake off. Unfortunately many modern cars automatically put on the handbrake or won’t stay in neutral Seatbelt laws – why wouldn’t you wear a seat-belt? - all passengers too. Kids seats are compulsory. Drink-driving – Thailand has plenty of laws to do with drink driving – but does very little about enforcing them. In fact 30% of accidents involve alcohol – that isn’t an excessively high percentage – about the same as the USA. IDPs Visitors are the required to have a home licence and IDP to drive in Thailand – this must be specifically for the vehicle they intend to drive. IDPs are issued in you home country usually by the national motoring organisation (AAA etc.) – the ones online are fakes. There are 2 IDPs – the Vienna convention one lasts for 3 years so long as your licence is still valid and the Geneva convention one which is only for one year. (oddly enough I saw a 5 year one issued in Thailand and just couldn’t tell if it was fake or not.) Thailand has as yet, no small bike category, so to ride any 2-wheeled vehicle in Thailand you need a FULL M/C licence accompanied by an IDP with category “A” endorsed – not cat A1. If you live continuously in Thailand for more than 3 months you are expected to have a Thai driving licence – you may find after this period that you are no longer covered by insurance. In many countries an IDP is available over the counter on presentation of the right documents. If you are a competent driver you should be able to drive anywhere in the world – BUT if you expect people in Thailand to drive like they do “at home” then you are probably not a competent driver. If you end up shouting or getting angry with other road users in Thailand, the problem is almost certainly with YOU. Turn left on a red light? “turning left on a red light is generally prohibited unless specific signs indicate otherwise”. … The picture below says it all.. The sign on the left says – “turn left – wait for the right” The sign on the right says “Turn left pass through” The sign “ซ้ายผ่านตลอด” (sai paan talort) means “Left turn at all times” CRASHES - What to do if I get into an accident in Thailand? There is a protocol you should strictly adhere to. The very first thing you do is contact you insurance. Make sure someone has rung emergency, police etc. but you priority must be to contact the insurance – they will very quickly send an agent to the scene. DON”T try and sort this out yourself – you can’t do it. I’ve seen time and again foreigners arguing the toss, presumably citing their home country’s traffic laws – you will just make things worse – remember to, if you raise your voice, you have lost. Helmet Why would you ride any bike without a helmet. helmet use is legally required for motorcycle drivers and passengers. Enforcement is stricter in some areas than others but new laws and the fact that a good helmet is becoming a status symbol means that helmet wearing amongst locals is becoming more common. And non-wearing is so easy to spot it’s just free money for the police.

Confused is what most farang motorists are, but there ego takes over and there brains disengage

THere is a key to driving in Thailand.. Thai driving culture is influenced by the country’s historical reliance on river transport. This results in fluid, sometimes driving behaviour that can only be accounted for by realising this as it resembles manoeuvring a boat on water. So ,understanding Thai driving involves recognizing its unique mix of practical road realities and cultural influences from river transport. For a safer experience, use caution, respect local road rules, and rely on technology for navigation. …..remember whilst driving, it’s a good idea to repeat to yourself “I’m in a boat” “I’m in a boat”

No it doesn't....even with a small driver you will see damage. It is not so much the compression as the wear and tear of repeated getting in and out. You can of course use experience to make a judgement but driver seat wear and tear is remarkably consistent. Certain characteristics only come with mileage.

if you can't tell that, get a friend to come along who does. THere are a lot of "paranoia" tales about second hand cars - if you know bit about what your after and have researched the prices either private or dealer, you can get a really good deal - especially on 1 or 2 year old cars. Mileage is so important - learn to tell if the odometer is lying. A good indicator is the drivers seat - they don't last much more than 300k and after about 160 show signs - so if the o=dometre says 80 k and the seat says 160k, believe the seat.

No - just confirmation bias. I notice since Covid the obligatory police publicity campaigns of the holiday periods (NY and SK) the po=lice have started to categorise the "causes" of accidents as "speeding, drink drive and "Changing lanes" - the fact that these categories are not accurately identified or even real just shows how poor they are at road safety. Up to 93 % of road crashes are caused by "human error" - unfortunately most people have no idea what that is and think is "bad driving" (subjective) by others - the truth is it is EVERYONE who makes the errors and like chao theory they can multiple from a very small "tick" to a muliple pile up in seconds.