007 RED

20 hours ago, wgdanson said:

hanks for this interesting info.

How does it do when for example someone (usually a man) grows or removes facial hair, or wears glasses. Cheers.

FYI….

Point 1.   The face map example which I provided in my previous post (#31) was a very basic example just to illustrate that fundamental principle of the so-called facial map.  There are in fact 80 distinguishable ‘landmarks’ on the face which modern high-tech systems are able to detect.. The system does not need to use all 80 'landmarks' so if a few ‘landmarks’ are not detectable, or located by the system, the system is still capable of functioning and producing a high percentage match score.

Point 2.   The system does not actually measure (in inches or millimetres) the distance between any given points on the face map.  The system just plots the position of each point and give that point a co-ordinate reference (rather like the GPS co-ordinates for your home).  It is these co-ordinates that the system uses to compare the picture that is embedded on the chip in your passport against the photo taken by the IO, or one that may already be held within the Immigration system – bearing in mind, each time you enter/depart the Kingdom the IO has taken a photo of you as well as each time you renew your permission to stay.

Point 3.   Passport photo and wearing glasses:  The wearing of tinted glasses has always been prohibited, or at least since 2001, for passport photos, and the IO will instruct someone wearing them to remove them when they present themselves at Immigration arrivals/departures.  The wearing of normal spectacles was permitted for passport photos up until July 2018 provided that they did not cast a shadow or produce glare.  However, since July 2018 most, if not all, passport issuing authorities now prohibit the wearing of spectacles for the passport photo unless there is extenuating medical reasons.

Point 4.  Facial hair (Beards/moustaches) can be a problem for the facial recognition system, particularly if it is a full beard or very bushy moustache.  The problem can be exacerbated if the person has recently grown the facial hair and the passport photo shows clean shaven.  That said, because the system can still plot a facial map using any number of alternative facial ‘landmarks’ it should still be capable of making a high percentage match.

On ‎6‎/‎2‎/‎2019 at 10:48 AM, KhunBENQ said:

Many countries have introduced mandatory biometric passports.

For those fingerprinting is done and saved on the chip that is embedded in

the passport.

So quite certain this check against the passport is included.

FYI…. Over 130 countries currently issue the so called ‘biometric’ passport.  The first ‘biometric’ passports were introduced by Malaysia in 1998.

Although it is referred to as a ‘biometric’ passport the chip that is embedded within the passport has not up until June 2018 contained any biometric information.  The only information that is/was held on the chip is biographical and identical to the information which is displayed on the photo page of the passport (including the photo of the holder).

The chip is what is known as contactless (also referred to as machine readable) and when the IO places the passport onto his/her scanner, the scanner reads the information held at the bottom of the page between <<<< >>>>.  This information is used to unlock the first level encryption code of the chip.  The biographic information held on the chip is then displayed on the IO’s screen.

In June 2018 the International Civil Aviation Organisation (ICAO), which is part of the United Nations, and responsible for setting the standards of passports and other machine readable documents issued an amendment to the 7th Edition 2015 of Doc 9303 to allow passport issuing authorities to include finger prints and iris scans to be placed within the chip that is embedded within the passport.  The new information is held at a higher encryption level on the chip and is only available with additional security clearance.

It must be stressed that the inclusion of fingerprints or iris scan information onto the chip which is embedded within the passport is not mandatory.  The decision to include this additional information is at the discretion of the individual passport issuing authority.

1 hour ago, Jim7777 said:

I’ve seen reports actually on this forum from people literally inside Immigration Detention posting about it and saying that they were currently in there at the moment they posted.  I saw one guy on here from somewhere in Europe I forgot which country he was from posting on the forum from inside an Immigration Detention cell.  He actually posted a picture of what he referred to as “the prison room” he was currently in.  Well, the picture he posted of his “prison room” looked more like a college dormitory room.  I even remember commenting that his so called “prison room” looked better than some of the living conditions for a lot of Thai people.

 

Again I don’t know about IDC I’ve never been there I live here legally and I’ve never known anyone who’s been in there.  All I know about IDC is what I’ve seen posted online.  And it doesn’t sound like the conditions in IDC are that bad at all, nothing at all like an actual Thai prison which is really horrible.  But I don’t know maybe IDC has different facilities maybe some of their facilities are better and maybe some aren’t so nice.  I’ve only seen a few reports online about IDC, and I’ve never heard that it’s like a real Thai prison.

 

I do know that Thai prisons really are everyone’s worst nightmare but I’ve seen a lot posted about IDC that didn’t seem that bad and I’ve read a lot of posts from people actually in IDC who still had their cell phones with them actually inside the IDC cell.  

 

It didn’t sound like the Hilton or the Marriott or any place I’d want to be but it didn’t at all sound like how 007 Red described it, but like I said I don’t know how IDC works if you end up in that system so I could be wrong.  I just know what I’ve seen people post in the forum actually from inside Immigration Detention.    I at least do know that there have definitely been people inside IDC who had their smartphones, that is at least true for sure.  I can’t personally speak to what it’s like in there because I’ve never been in there but I have seen reports that are very different from what 007 Red described.  

 

The answer to your question is that their phones are with them, I’ve actually read posts on this forum from people posting from inside Immigration Detention.  But of course there maybe different IDC facilities with different rules I don’t know that’s not exactly something I keep up with lol are the conditions in Immigration Detention.  

Jim7777 …. I applauded you for trying to help the OP resolve the problem with his son, but with all due respect yesterday you regurgitated the same information, namely the contact telephone numbers for the British Embassy, and how urgent it was that the OP should contact them, in 11 posts. 

As it turned out, one of those phone numbers was for the Foreign and Commonwealth Office in London.  Sorry but the repetition was becoming a little boring to say the least, and served no useful purpose to the OP.

Forgive me, but you now have started repeating what you posted yesterday about how you have read that the IDC is a nice place and the photos that you have seen of the detention facility. 

I, and other TV members have already advised you that the photos you have seen in a different post were taken in the detention facility at either BKK or DMK airport.  These facilities are not run by Immigration, they are run by the airport authority and are in no way representative of the conditions in the main Immigration Detention Centre (IDC) in the centre of Bangkok. 

The detention facilities at the airports are primarily for short term stays for passengers who have been refused entry into the Kingdom and are awaiting to be flown out.   Yes, compared to the IDC facilities in central Bangkok they are almost 5 star.  Yes, individuals held in the airport facilities are allowed to keep their personal possessions with them (including their mobile phone, laptop etc.), except their passport which is held by security and handed to the airline staff prior to departure.  FYI … The airport authority bills the individual about 800 THB per day for their stay plus cost of meals etc. 

I appreciate that you have not been to the Immigration Detention Centre in Bangkok so, therefore, you haven't had any first hand experience of this 'wonderful' facility.  Please take it from me thatt it is your worst nightmare, a real ‘hell hole’.  As I said to you in a previous post, it is somewhere that you would not wish your worse enemy to be incarcerated in, and that is saying something.

1 hour ago, UKJASE said:

i know the guy who has been nicked, and he has only been nicked for overstay, nothing else.  he was not involved in anything criminal.

 

i went to see him yesterday in hua hin police station, and will go again today.  he was in court yesterday, and fined 1000 baht for something, and he will be held in hua hin over the weekend, then he is unsure (as he couldnt follow what was being said, as his thai is not very good).

 

maybe it is bangkok next?  

 

do most people think the best way to get flown out of IDC as quick as possible is to transfer the money to embassy in bangkok?  i know his dad (the OP) has been in touch with them already.  do people on here agree that will be the quickest way?  i can make payment at this end too if that will hurry things along, but to me the embassy method seems more efficient and reliable i would think........

 

What do you guys think?  ubon joe??

I would strongly recommend that either the OP or you deal with the Consular Officials at the British Embassy in Bangkok regarding providing funds to support the OPs son's return flight.

The Consular Officials deal with this sort of problem on a very regular basis so have both the experience and the contacts at the IDC to ensure things are dealt with 'smoothly'.  Equally, and perhaps more importantly, they will ensure that the money is properly deposited and accounted for - there is a potential danger that funds might go missing if deposited directly by yourself or the OP.

47 minutes ago, Jim7777 said:

I don’t know but from what I understand and have heard Immigration Detention isn’t at all like a Thai prison.  I’ve heard that it’s not horrible but I don’t know where he’s being held obviously.  More than likely in Immigration Detention which I’ve heard isn’t too horrible but I’m not sure, obviously you want him out of there and home as soon as possible regardless.  As a parent I can’t imagine how worried you must be but I’m pretty sure that Immigration Detention isn’t to bad if that’s indeed where he’s being held.  So it’s not like he’s in a real Thai prison or anything like that.  More than likely he’s just in Immigration Detention of course I could be wrong I’m not familiar with how that works especially after a 4 year overstay.  

 

It’s possible that he might even have his cell phone with him if he’s indeed in Immigration Detention.  I’ve seen reports of people in Immigration Detention before online that were allowed to keep their cell phones and I saw one where a guy took a picture of the Detention room and posted it online and it didn’t look bad at all it actually looked really decent of course like I said I don’t know where your son is being held hopefully in one of the nicer Detention rooms but I don’t know.  

Sorry Jim7777 but the picture that you have of the IDC in Bangkok could not be further from the truth.  It is more that your worse nightmare and somewhere that frankly you would not wish your worse enemy to be incarcerated.

Detainees are packed 30 to 40 in a small room which has an open squat toilet at one end. There is a ceiling fan, but no air conditioning in the room.  Detainees sleep on the bare floor in head to toe formation next to one another with little or no room to move.  The smell in the detention rooms is overpowering.  There are communal showers and detainees are allowed one per day. Food is basic to say but the least and tends to comprise rice plus a soup twice a day.  Medical facilities are extremely basic and if the detainee requires any medication they will have to pay for them.  Detainees are not allowed any personal possessions whilst in the IDC e.g. mobile phones or money etc.  Visitors are only allowed by appointment and then the visitor and detainee are separated in an open yard by two fences approximately a meter apart - no privacy. 

The photos that you referred to in your post are most likely the temporary detention facility at the airport and these are quite different from the main IDC in Bangkok.  Detainees at the airport are only there for a short time (maybe overnight) and they are allowed to retain their personal possessions (except passport). 

It has been reported that there are individuals that have been detained in the IDC for several years because they have no recourse to funds to get them back to their home country.

This is why I suggest  in my original post 21 that the OP's first priority must be to get their son out of IDC ASAP.

1 hour ago, FarangDoingHisThing69 said:

Also, giving advice to a criminal is against forum rules.

May I respectfully suggest that you go back and read the original post before making such observations.  The person who is seeking advice is the parent of the individual who has got himself into this overstay mess. 

FYI…. Giving advice to someone who as you put it is ‘a criminal, does not make it against forum rules unless that advice is intended to break the law.  So far, and in my opinion, none of the members who have offered advice to the OP have made any suggestions that could be remotely considered as breaking the law. 

I’m confident that if any member did give advice which was deemed to be against forum rules the moderator(s) would have been quick to remove the offending post and warn the poster.

May I also suggest a little less criticism and perhaps a bit more compassion for a distraught parent is called for.

OP…. I’m sorry to hear that your son has caused you a parental heartache and I hope that I can give you some information which will help you.

In your original post you did not mention how your son came to be in Immigration custody.  This can be important as it will have a bearing on how his case will be handled.  There are two possibilities, namely:

Firstly: 

If your son was arrested or stopped by the police for an unrelated immigration offence, (for example a routine police check following an accident or something more serious) the police may well have asked to see his passport and discovered that he was on overstay, and hence immigration’s involvement.

If he has committed an unrelated immigration offence, then that matter will need to be dealt with first by the local police and Court.  Depending what the offence was, your son could be detained in the local police cells until an initial Court appearance which is normally within a week.  Depending upon the nature of the offence, it is possible also that he may be released on bail, but he will have to surrender his passport to the Court and stay at a specified address and report to police on a regular basis until the case is formally heard.

For your information, it can take several weeks before an offence is normally tried in Court.

The Court will also be informed of his overstay and that matter may also be dealt with by the Court at the same time as any other offence.

For your information, although the fine for overstay is set at 500 THB (approximately £12) per day, the maximum fine that can be levied is 20,000 THB (approximately £494).  The Courts, however, generally reduce the overstay fine to around 3,000 to 6,000 THB.

Once the offence matter has been dealt with by the Court, and your son has paid any fines (or served any prison sentence) imposed by the Court, Immigration will detain your son and transfer him to the Immigration Detention Centre (IDC) in Bangkok to await deportation.  This transfer may take several days to arrange during which time he will be detained in a local police cell, or local Immigration facility.

Secondly:  

If your son was stopped by Immigration in a ‘spot check’, and they discovered that he was on four years overstay, they (Immigration) have the power to detain and deport him from the Kingdom without the need for any Court appearance.  Immigration can also charge him the maximum fine for overstay (20,000 THB) and this will need to be paid before he is deported. 

If he has not committed any other offences, he will be transported to the IDC in Bangkok to await deportation.  Transfer, as mentioned above, may take several days to arrange.

The police/immigration should notify the Consular Section of British Embassy in Bangkok that your son has been detained, where he is being held and the reason for the detention.  Unfortunately, this can often take several days to happen.  An Embassy representative will contact your son and inform him what assistance the Embassy can, or cannot, give.  See link below

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/451352/Thailand_Prisoners_pack_template_-_Final_Draft_for_publishing.pdf

Not wishing to frighten you, but the Immigration Detention Centre in Bangkok is everyone’s worst nightmare.  Conditions there are about as bad as they can get.  So, getting him out of IDC must be a number one priority.

I would strongly recommend that you contact the Consular Section at the British Embassy in Bangkok, their contact details are given in the link I’ve attached above and listen to their advice.  They deal with similar problems on a daily basis and are in the best position to give you advice. 

The Embassy will not pay for his flight out of the Kingdom.  However, you can send the Embassy money which they in turn will deposit in an account for him which will be held by the IDC.  The Embassy will make a charge for this service. 

Your son will not be allowed any personal possessions or physical money whilst in the IDC, but he can debit his account held by IDC in order to pay for better food, drinking water, mattress or other essentials etc. which he can request the guards to obtain for him.  He will also need funds available to pay for his flight out of the Kingdom.

Regarding his flight, again the Embassy staff will best advise you on this matter.  Generally speaking, Immigration will want the deportee to be flow back to their home country by a single carrier, without stops, whenever possible.  This should not be a problem as there are several carriers that fly direct between Bangkok and the UK.

I strongly advise that you, or his friends, do not purchase a ticket for him without talking to Immigration first as Immigration need to approve the flight before a booking is confirmed so that they can arrange transport from the IDC to the airport.  This can take a couple of days to arrange. 

It has been reported that when family or friends have obtained a ticket without Immigration approval the individual was not transported to the airport in time to catch the flight and as a result the airline considers it to be a ‘no show’, which means no refund and having to purchase another expensive ticket.

You need to be aware that a single ticket from Bangkok to the UK, booked at relatively short notice e.g. a couple of days, will be expensive – single fares tend to be 2/3rd the cost of a normal return flight and the short notice booking inevitably attracts a higher premium charge.

Once a flight has been approved and booked, Immigration will transport your son from the IDC in Bangkok to the airport.  At the airport your son will be taken to the airport detention facility until his flight is ready to board.  His passport will be given to the flight crew and this will be returned to him when he exits the plane in the UK.

For your information…  Your son will be banned from entering Thailand for the next 10 years.  This may present him with a problem if he has property and bank accounts here, but that is the least of his problems for now.  Get him out of IDC ASAP.

I hope this information has been helpful and best of luck.

1 hour ago, Lovethailandelite said:

I told you last week. The big change is coming. Wait until they release this new immigration act. You are 100% going to have something too complain about then.

 

The committee has been working on eleven main changes to immigration rules and penalties since January. 

 

Other changes include the stamps that will be used by immigration. A new flag shaped design is in the offing.

 

In a related story Lt-Gen Surachate himself said that a ministerial committee will discuss the proposals this week with implementation expected after Songkran on April 22nd. 

 

TNA called the present era "Yuk Big Joke" (the era of Big Joke) in their feature on the proposed changes. 

 

Sources: TNA | TNA

Your quite correct when you point out that Lt. Gen. Surachate (AKA Big Joke) has announced that there is a committee looking into proposed changes to the current Immigration Act.

However, He (Big Joke) does not have the authority to introduce a new Immigration Act, or to make any modifications to the original Act.  That can only be done by Parliament.

At present the committee (comprising representatives from several Ministries - MoI, MFA, TAT)  is considering several proposed options to amend the Immigration Act.  As this is Thailand, committees tend to ruminate for ever so there is no telling as to when they will come up with any concrete proposals.  Big Joke's estimates of the proposals being implemented on the 24 April are a little over exaggerated to say the least.

Once the committee has decided on what changes to the Immigration Act they consider expedient, those proposals will be submitted to the Minister of the Interior who has overall responsibility for the Immigration Act. 

The Minister may return those proposals to the committee with his, or her, recommend changes for further consideration.  Once the Minister approves the proposals he, or she, will need to submit the proposals to Parliament for approval which will have several readings (and possible amendments) before being passed to the upper house for approval.  Once Parliament has given it approval to the proposal, it then has to be submitted to the King for his approval and once the King has approved the proposal it is normally a month before those proposals can come into effect (law).

Given the current state of play (election wise) it is highly unlikely that a new Government will be place and up and running until June at the earliest.  Even then I would expect that there will be other matters that will take priority over any proposed changes to the Immigration Act.

FYI…. It is highly unlikely that committee will even consider changing the stamps used by Immigration to a “new flag shaped design” as the shape of stamps used by Immigration worldwide are governed by the UN under the auspices of International Civil Aviation Organisation (ICAO) to ensure uniformity.  At present there is no ICAO approval for flag shaped Immigration stamps.

Also knowing how loyal Thais are to their flag it is incomprehensible that the Government would allow someone to write on their flag.  No doubt there is a law that prohibits defacing the Thai flag.