007 RED

6 hours ago, Spidey said:

It's already been posted early on in one of the other threads. I don't have photoshop or know how to use it so couldn't delete personal information (name, passport number etc.). However, I can assure you that it is virtually identical to the Netherlands format except it has, in recent years, had the caveat added,

 

"The service provided by the British Embassy, Bangkok should not be taken as to certify that this document is binding in law (whether under UK law or otherwise). Individuals are advised to seek independent legal advice as to the validity of this document under the relevant law."

FYI..... As you will see from my earlier post the caveat at the bottom of the BE letter has been there since August 2014.  After having originally posted this in another thread, another TV member responded by stating that he has a copy of the BE letter dated back in 2010 which had the same caveat, so it's been around for quite some time and is nothing new

51 minutes ago, JackThompson said:

Run it to the present - or at least through the announcement.  The announcement came later, which may indicate there were ongoing discussions after the meeting in May.

My original request was very open – no start or end date.  They (the FCO) have indicated that in order to comply with my request it is going to take them longer than 3.5 man days to gather the information and have, therefore, refused to comply with this element of my request on the basis of an exemption (Section 12) which is provided within the Freedom of Information Act (FOIA). 

As a result, I have responded and limited the request to cover the time period that the initial meeting with Immigration was reported to have occurred.  If that information is forthcoming then there is nothing to say that a follow-up request cannot be submitted covering different dates.

My own personal opinion (based upon having to deal with FOIA requests in my pre-retirement life), is that obtaining the information being requested is in fact very simple – you ask the person at the BE BKK who is responsible for dealing Thai Immigration (there is only likely to be a couple of people who fit that bill) do they have any minutes and/or correspondence/emails relating to this subject?  If the answer is yes, you instruct them to produce the information.  It should only take the person at the Embassy a couple of hours to locate all the relevant file(s), particularly as the Embassy should have an exemplary filing system ????.

I am of the view that the BE does hold the minutes/correspondence/emails, but they are going to be very reluctant to disclose that information and will no doubt use another exemption (FOIA Section 27 – International Relations).  In which case I am quite happy to take them on at their own game.  As I said previously, don’t hold your breath, this is going to be like getting blood out of a stone.

29 minutes ago, ubonjoe said:

You got the response I expected you would get.

"I can confirm that the FCO does hold information relevant to your request."

It does not surprise me that they have confirmed that they hold the information requested and have used the exemption that to locate and retrieve it will exceed the 'Appropriate Limit'.

Now the 'fun' bit comes in getting 'blood out of the stone'.  Please don't hold your breath because their next tack will be that they cannot release the information because it will adversely affect international relations.

12 minutes ago, Catoni said:

 

         For those members who are still learning all the acronyms....

    what is METV and SETV ? ? 

METV = Multiple Entry Tourist Visa

SETV = Single Entry Tourist Visa

1 hour ago, wgdanson said:

A link to that anyone please. This particular line I have quoted is missed out on my reply from Stacey, Deputising Vice Consul, at BE. How far down the line is that?

FYI…. Ms Stacey Adele Filer is the person who normally signs the BE letter confirming income.  When she signs the letter her designation is given as Pro Consul.

I think that she is fairly new to the post and was recruited earlier this year – see FOC job advert https://fco.tal.net/vx/mobile-0/appcentre-ext/brand-2/candidate/so/pm/4/pl/1/opp/3478-BK-Pro-Consul-A2-L/en-GB

It should be noted that her salary is just 37,102 Baht per month so I leave it to you to judge how far down the BE 'food chain' she is.

Please bear in mind that if the alleged meeting between Immigration and Embassy Officials took place in May, the above mentioned person would not have participated in this meeting.

4 hours ago, offset said:

I was just wondering if the letter was changed before or after the meeting between the embassies and the immigration in May, if before it maybe the BE instigated the problems we have now if after it might mean it as been instigated by the immigration

The text at the bottom of the Bottom of the BE letter has been the same since 2014.  The only difference is that it did not have the BE 'seal'.. that was added in 2016.

50 minutes ago, White Tiger said:

If your FOI requests do not give us more info, maybe mine will.  In total there are now 3 FOI requests in the system, all worded differently & asking slightly different questions but essentially pushing in the same sirection, so hopefully more background info to this decision at the BE will be revealed by them.  

Unfortunately there may only 2 FOI requests in the system.  Yours and mine.  Another TV member (who shall remain nameless) copied my request (including a typo) and submitted it a day later as a new request.

I hope that we both get a positive response to our requests.

55 minutes ago, Spidey said:

I operated my first computer at my local university in 1969. I have worked with computers ever since. I know exactly what computers can and can't do. Doubt that they would be able to effectively reproduce my P60. As for the British Embassy letter, it has an embossed seal, it's all about the paper that it's printed on, not the computer itself.

 

Try printing a banknote on a piece of A4 paper, using a computer alone, do you think that your bank would accept it?

I don’t dispute the fact that you submit the original documents to support your request for a BE letter – that is your choice.  However, with your all-embracing computer experience you must be fully aware that many organisations nowadays encourage their customers to adopt paperless online communications.  That is to say they provide you with your information online and it up to you if you print it or not.

My bank statements, pension payslips, P60s are all available to me as PDFs online.  I just download them and attach copies to my email to the BE when I submit my request for a letter.  In the case of Immigration, I print these on standard inkjet printing paper (no security ink) and submitted them to the IO if asked for added verification.  Never had a problems.

As previously mentioned, the BE letter is produced on standard LaserJet printing paper and does not have any watermark.  The red serrated disc is just self-adhesive sticky paper and the embossed BE logo can be easily produced using a 3D printer to make a stamp.  Nothing is impossible!

5 minutes ago, CharlieH said:

Not for me it aint. ????

Thanks.... I don't know why you can't access the attachment... I've just tried and it appeared.

10 minutes ago, ubonjoe said:

Your attachment download does not work.

Thanks... Re-loaded and now working.

54 minutes ago, Spidey said:

My pension letter (payslip) comes in the same form as my P60. Paper not readily available and very difficult to photoshop effectively.

 

If you are talking about the BE letter, has an embossed seal and again, not readily availiable paper. Not possible to effectively scan and print.

Please see attached.... Easily scanned.... Easily redacted - changed.... Standard laser printer paper - No water mark.... The embossed seal is also easy to replicate if required.

As I have indicated to you previously, it is possible with scanner and decent software to replicate any document.

Consular Letter_Redacted.pdf

On ‎10‎/‎21‎/‎2018 at 2:17 PM, KhunBENQ said:

I am certain that many nationals traveling to Thailand do not have "chipped" passports.

Thai immigration still seems to resort to the machine readable zone (as seen in the photo of the OP ("P>FR...", French passport).

And that is surely still machine readable.

 

Also:

the chip and antenna are NOT embedded in the bio page but in the front cover.

At least that is shown in a video of "ANTS", a French agency that deals with the passports.

The video is in English(!)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PoBHfEMLvLc

 

FYI…. The so called ‘biometric’ passports were first introduced in 2005 and as at 2017 over 120 countries (comprising most of the countries that form the United Nations) currently use ‘biometric’ passports.  So in fact most countries now issue ‘biometric’ passports.

Until June of this year the chip embedded within the ‘biometric’ passport actually did not contain any true biometric data e.g. finger print, iris scan etc.  The chip actually contained identical information to the shown on the photo page (including the photo of the passport holder).  Information held on the chip is encrypted and only accessible using a ‘security key’.

In June this year the full council of the International Civil Aviation Organisation (ICAO) which runs under the auspices of the United Nations ratified Document 9303 Machine Readable Travel Documents 7th Edition 2015.  This now allows States to include true biometric data (finger prints, iris scans etc.) onto the chip at the second security level.  The inclusion of true biometric data is not mandatory and its inclusion is left to each issuing States.

Part 9 of the above mentioned ICAO document advises that the placement of the chip and its associated antenna is at the discretion of the issuing State.  However, States must be mindful of the importance of the need to protect the chip and antenna against physical tampering and casual accidental damage accidental damage including flexing and bending.  As a result some countries put the chip and antenna in the front or rear cover whilst others put it on the reverse side of the photo page –which actually makes it more difficult to alter that information of the photo page without damaging the chip or antenna.

FYAI…  When an IO places the photo page onto the scanner on his/her desk the scanner reads the information at the bottom of the page between >>>>  >>>>>>.  The Optical Character Reader (OCR) software then uses certain characters within the information between >>>>  >>>> to produce the ‘security key’ to decrypt the information held on the chip.  It is the information contained on the chip that is then displayed of the IOs screen.

3 hours ago, Spidey said:

......   People buying fake British Embassy income letters off the internet and having them accepted by the IO? Highly unlikely. evidence please.

Sorry to contradict you but I think that there is evidence that fake Embassy letters have been submitted to immigration.  A number of TV members (including myself) have reported on TV that when they have presented their Embassy letter to immigration the IO demands that the letter is ‘certified’ by the Ministry of Foreign Affairs.  The certification is in fact authentication of the signature.

From the reports on TV it would appear that this requirement was confined to a small number of offices.

When I asked the IO why this was necessary, I was informed that immigration have received a number of fakes and this requirement was to ensure the document was authentic.

As a side issue… Have you ever been down the Khao San Road in BKK before they cleaned it up a few months ago?  Famous for fake documents, IDs, degrees etc.  I’m sure that you could also obtain an Embassy letter, pension or bank statement (at a price) if required.  Too late now though, it’s all been sanitised by BKK Metro Authority.

1 hour ago, Peterw42 said:

Great letter but I would change one part of the wording "stopping certification of income letters" is the title of the thread, not what the British Embassy refers to. British Embassy says "stopping Pension letter service", technically British Embassy does not certify income letters or refer to them as such. Possible confusion as they may not understand what you are talking about.

Thanks for your observation regarding the use of the phrase " stopping certification of income letters", much appreciated.  However, the wording that you question is in fact taken (copy & paste) from the BE website under the section Notarial and Documentary Services Guide for Thailand – Announcement https://www.gov.uk/guidance/notarial-and-documentary-services-guide-for-Thailand the use of the words

Just shows, yet again, they can’t get it right.

I’m really not sure that this article is factually correct.  Immigration officers at the ports of entry and departure do not need to be able to identify if a passport is fake or not.  The computer system does it for them.

When the IO places the passport onto the scanner on their desk, the scanner reads the information at the bottom of the photo page between the <<<< >>>>.  Using an Optical Character Recognition programme, the computer uses certain elements of the date of birth, passport number and expiry date to produce an encryption key that unlocks the information held on the microchip embedded in the passport. 

The encrypted information held on the microchip is the same information as contained on the photo page of the passport (including the holder’s photo).  It is the information from the microchip that is then displayed on the IOs screen so the IO can see at a glance that the info on the photo page of the passport matches that being displayed on his/her screen.

Also when the IO takes a photo of the traveller, a facial recognition software programme in the computer system compares the new photo with that held on the microchip and then gives the IO a feedback that the photos match or not.

The microchip also has additional security features which will show up if any of the data on the microchip have been altered.

So called biometric chip passports were introduced in mid-2005 and some 160 countries have subsequently adopted the use of them.

In July of this year the International Civil Aviation Organisation, which runs under the auspices of the United Nations, approved that the finger prints and iris scan information may also be included on the microchip.  These additional features are not mandatory and it will be up too individual countries ID issuing authorities to decide if they are to be included on the chip. 

Because of the security surrounding the embedding of the encrypted information onto the microchip, this has made it extremely difficult for forgers to replicate or alter a so called biometric passport.

Please don’t get me wrong, I am not saying that it is impossible.  I would be a fool if I did.  But the introduction of the microchip has made it extremely difficult to forge or alter a passport and much easier to detect a forgery or altered passport.

2 hours ago, ThaidDown said:

This was posted on TVF March 7 .Five year ban

 

 

Many thanks. It definitely indicates that the individual is on the blacklist for 5 years.  Not something you want in your passport.

2 hours ago, ubonjoe said:

I think saying it is automatic is not correct. A immigration officer with the the authority to it has to initiate the action. It certainly is not automatically done in their system.

Joe … I entirely agree with your comment that a ban (for whatever reason) is not automatically created by the immigration computer system, and that it requires the IO (or authorised person) to enter the details of any ban into their computer system.

When I indicated the ban was automatic in my previous post, it was in the context that the OPs overstay of 4 years plus, with voluntary surrender, will result in a an automatic 5 year ban.  The wording of the Ministerial Order (1/2558) clearly states “… will be barred from re-entering the country…”  The emphasis being on the word ‘will’, which I beg to suggest infers automatic with no choice, discretion or appeal.