007 RED

2 hours ago, elviajero said:

 

He wasn't denied entry because he didn't have at least 20K (Immigration act - section 12.9.), he was denied entry under 12.2. Someone living in the country for a long term as a tourist that claims they are not working throws up the question of how they 'make a living'. Without proof that you have funds or income coming in from abroad, or a legal income in Thailand, you can lawfully be denied under 12.2. I've no idea what paperwork would be accepted because, as usual, it would be done to the senior officer to accept/decline whatever was offered.

 

The OP is clearly not a 'tourist' and the IO/senior officer clearly did the right thing in denying entry. Anyone LIVING in the country as a 'tourist' cannot complain when an IO does their job and denies entry, regardless of the reason given.

 

I totally agree.  As the OP has admitted in previous posts, he owns a small business, trains the employees, pays the employees wages and tax, recieves dividends (payment) from his company.  Although he denies that he works he now claim that he will get a non-B visa to make himself legal.  Also he says that he is considering an EV but will not attend classes.  I think this just about sums the OP up.

I suspect (and it is only my suspicion) that when he was interviewed by the senior IO he let it slip, when asked what he did while staying in the Kingdom (for 2 years) and how he funded his stay, that he owned a small business.  Alarm bells ring with the senior IO who then possibly conducts a search of the OP and his luggage.  Ops, I bet 10 2 1 that the OP had his bank pass books with him and these would show all the credits having been made from within the Kingdom for the past X years.  These might be difficult to explain.

Hence the IOs suspicion that the OP was using the TV to work and the refusal on the grounds of Section 12(2).

1 hour ago, balo said:

OP : Just apply for a new passport at your embassy in KL or Cambodia. Maybe it will take a few weeks . Then when you get the passport, apply for a tourist visa, and enter one of the Thai borders. If lucky you will get through and no questions asked.

Sorry but getting a new passport does not wipe the slate clean.  

As has been pointed out several times previously the only difference between the old and the new passport is the passport number.  

The moment that the OP gives his new passport to the IO at whatever entry point he uses, and the IO put the photo page onto the scanner the immigation database will immediately realise that the passport number has not been used before to enter the Kingdom.  

The computer system then runs a comparison check using the information derived from the bottom of the photo page between <<<< >>>> namely; the country code +gender+date of birth+family name+first names.  

As all these are the same as the original passport the IO is advised that a previous possible passport exists and is shown a photo of the OP taken the last time that he exited the Kingdom on his old passport.  

The IO confirms that the photo matches the person and the immigration system then links the old and new passports.  The IO can then see all of the OPs entry and exit history, including the reasons for his refused entry, going back a good number of year.  The whole process takes a fraction of a second.

Getting a new passport does not resolve the issue.

6 hours ago, Faeton said:

Anyway now it is weekend, so i just take a flight  to Vietnam from KL.
And on monday i will get an answer about making non-b visa for my  old passport with that stamp. If i get confirmation... that it will be ok for immigration.

Do it because its more easy way for me and i will spend less time and nerves then i go to my country.

 

So you’re going to get a business visa from the Thai Embassy/Consulate in Vietnam… Do you know what documents you will have to submit in order to obtain that type of visa?

Please take a look at the requirements:

http://www.mfa.go.th/main/en/services/4908/15388-Non-Immigrant-Visa-"B"-(for-Business-and.html

All I can say is best of luck as I don’t see how you are going to provide:

 - Letter from the applicant’s company indicating the applicant’s position, length of employment, salary and purpose of visit(s) to Thailand.
            - Documents showing correspondence with business partners in Thailand.
            - Evidence of financial status in the case where the applicant is self-employed.
            - Letter of invitation from trading or associated partners/companies in Thailand.
            - Corporate documents of associated partners/companies in Thailand such as:
            1) business registration and business license
            2) list of shareholders
            3) company profile
            4) details of business operation
            5) map indicating location of the company
            6) balance sheet, statement of Income Tax and Business Tax (Por
Ngor Dor 50 and Por Ngor Dor 30) of the latest year

6 hours ago, Faeton said:

 

new passport have a new number and its not at the system. And there is no marks about last number of passport. Thailand airport dont do finger scan. So new passport it is new life. I dont know number at  new passport change or not in another countries, but for mine is like that. Also in mine you can have 2 active passport for travel. (i have 2 passport, but one of them do not have any space. My country do it, because if you have once visa to Iran or simular countries you will never get visa to U.S after that or if you want to have a visa for some country you need keep your passport and wait, so you can use another one for travel in that dates ). And both passport have different no., and nothing says between them.

I would gladly get a new passport for a new one instead of a full one. But only it can be received within 2-3 months in any country except mine.

OP… Lots of people have more than one passport, and you are correct when you say that there is nothing on the passports to indicate the other passport number.  But from there on you are totally wrong.

You have no doubt already presented one passport to Thai immigration on several occasions during your 2 year stay in Thailand.  The details of that passport (as captured from the bottom of the photo page between <<<< >>>>) are in the immigration computer database together with your entry and exit history.

When you present a new (or second) passport to the IO on arrival, the IO will scan the photo page and the information between the <<<< >>>> at the bottom of the page are sent to the immigration database. 

The computer system will immediately detect that the new (or second) passport number is not known to the system.  It then does a comparison check using the country code + gender + date of birth + family name + first name(s), and what do you think the system will show? 

Answer = The system will show that the second passport matches the details of the first passport. 

The computer system will then advise the IO that there is a second passport and show him/her the photo that was taken the last time you exited Thailand (26 January 2017) on the old passport.  The IO will then confirm that the two passports belong to the same person and the immigration system will link both passports.  Once the two passports have been linked the IO will see all of your entry/exit history.

So changing your passport will not wipe the ‘history slate clean’ with Thai Immigration.

1 hour ago, JackThompson said:

If the OP showed 20K, and was denied for "not having the money," then this was dishonest, and it was the IO(s) who broke the law.   If he, in fact, did not have the currency-equivalent of 20K Baht, then they got him on a technicality, and did not break the law..

Jack… I believe you are confusing the OP’s refusal of entry on the grounds of not having 20K BHT and that of not having means to support his stay.  These are two very separate issues.

The 20K BHT rule is covered under Section 12(9) of the Immigration Act – "Having no money or bond as prescribed by the Minister upon him".  Had the OP not had the required 20K BHT on him, the IO would have refused entry under Section 12(9).  However, the OP has stated (several times) that he had 20K BHT and showed this to the IO.

The OP was refused entry on the grounds of Section 12(2) of the Immigration Act (as shown in his post #28). – "Having no appropriate means of living following entrance to the Kingdom".

I suspect that the OP did not give the senior IO in the ‘back office’ satisfactory answers/evidence as to how he funded his previous/proposed stay(s) leading the IO to suspect that the OP may have been working to fund his stay(s).  The IO only needs reasonable grounds to suspect that the OP was working in order fund his stay(s) to refuse entry on the grounds of 12(2).

On ‎15‎/‎01‎/‎2018 at 9:19 AM, Mattd said:

Really, then the good old UK Government is blatantly lying then (not that it would surprise!)

'To help speed up your time at passport control, there are now ePassport gates at all major airports in the UK. ePassport gates are automated, where a passport reader and camera, rather than a border officer, will verify your identity and check your ‘chipped’ passport.

The gates use facial recognition technology to compare your face to the photograph recorded on the ‘chip’ in your passport. Once the check is made successfully, the gate opens automatically for you to walk through.'

https://www.nidirect.gov.uk/articles/using-epassport-gates-airport-border-control

 

Facial recognition systems (FRS) were used in the early versions of e-Gates but unfortunately they proved to be only 40% accurate/reliable which resulted in a large number of false rejections, long queues and unacceptable delays. 

The biggest problem with FRS is that the algorithms used to compare faces (photo v CCTV) are all too often designed to cater for a particular gender or nationalities.  It was found that they do not respond very well to recognising women, young people or non-caucasians.  It was also found that as the passport photo is valid for 10 years, people’s feature can change (in some cases quite dramatically) within that time frame resulting in incorrect results being given.  

As a result, the FRS capability was abandoned in favour of having an IO doing the facial comparison. It is envisaged that within the next few years FRS will be reintroduced once the system can be made reliable.

You may also recall that the Iris Recognition Immigration System (IRIS) facility which was introduced at most UK airports in 2004 was also subsequently decommissioned because passengers often found it difficult to use and it gave to many false rejections which resulted in long queues.

On ‎15‎/‎01‎/‎2018 at 10:07 AM, OJAS said:

Well, all I can say is that the only booths I could see at the Eurostar terminal in Paris (where I first used an e-gate a few months ago) appeared to contain officers who were checking passports manually. In any case there really isn't sufficient space there for another booth within eyeshot of the e-gates to accommodate an officer to press green and red buttons (the whole area was pretty cramped as it was)!

I cannot speak directly for exactly where the IO who is operating the facial comparison actually sits at every immigration location, but I can assure you that one officer assigned to that task and is located within the immigration area. 

At BHX for example the IO is located in the very right-hand booth and passengers who have cleared the e-Gate will pass behind him/her on their way to the exit and see the screen he/she uses.  At LHR and LGW the IO is located in a back office.

The one officer can oversea up to 10 e-Gates at any one time, hence the through put at the e-Gate is considerably higher than that of the normal face-to-face check.

“Also last week, soldiers from an army division in Surat Thani used Article 44 to shut down two pubs after they were found selling drug to foreign tourists.

Colonel Kriangkrai Srirak, deputy commander of the Fifth Infantry Division, said he invoked Article 44 to order the indefinite closure of Reggae Bar and Bello Bar on Haad Rin Beach, The Nation reported”.

Worrying… Colonel Kriangkrai Srirak claims that he invoked Article 44….. I was under the impression (maybe wrongly) that only General Politician Prayut Chan-o-cha had the power to invoke Article Section 44.

2 hours ago, Mattd said:

The photo and the biodata are embedded in to the chip and the photo within the chip is used together with the camera at the e-gate, this camera has facial recognition software that compares certain facial features for ID authentication.

Sorry Mattd but the e-Gate does not work in the way that you described.

When the passport (photo page) is placed into the e-Gate scanner several things happen and the process I describe below happens very quickly.

Firstly, the scanner reads the information at the bottom of the page between the <<<< >>>> and convert that information into digital format. 

Secondly, the scanner reads the encrypted information held on the microchip that is embedded within the passport – this information is a duplicate of the information held at the bottom of the phot page between <<<< >>>>>, plus a digital copy of the passport holder’s photo. 

Thirdly, the computer system compares both sets of information to ensure that they are identical, with the exception of the digital photo as that will be dealt with later.

Fourthly, the information acquired from the microchip is simultaneously sent to the various law enforcement agencies (immigration, customs and police) and their computer systems check to see if anything is known relating to passport holder.

If the initial scans are identical and nothing untoward is known about the passport holder an immigration officer (usually sitting in a booth within the immigration area) will have a 'green light' displayed on his/her screen together with the digital image from the passport microchip and an image from a CCTV camera at the e-Gate.  If the IO is satisfied that the encrypted digital image held on the passport microchip resembles the CCTV image of the of the passport holder, the IO pushes a button to open the e-Gate.  If there is a problem the IO leaves the e-Gate closed and alerts a colleague to investigate.

2 hours ago, wgdanson said:

There is no way that biometrics ie retina pattern, facial dimensions etc. can be obtained from a passport sized photograph, the resolution is too small. It would be much better that the Passport people ask for a 10 x 8 at 720 dpi, or a high res jpg file. They could then reduce the size to fit on the passport.

I appreciate that you were responding to an earlier post and that information which you gave was basically correct.

However, FYI …  The ePassport is a traditional passport that has an electronic microprocessor embedded within the passport (normally on the reverse of the holder’s data page).

These passports are often referred to as biometric passports but in fact the ‘chip’ does not hold true biometric information relating to holder’s height, weight, facial characteristics, iris pattern, or fingerprints etc. 

The information which held on the chip is the same as that given at the bottom of the passport data page between the <<< >>>>, plus a copy of the holder’s photo.  This information is encrypted and can only be read with special scanners that enable boarder control agencies to verify the identity of the passport holder.  The encrypted data on the chip also make it more difficult to forge the passport.

My wife (Thai) and I visited the waterfalls in early December.  At the gatehouse (where you pay the entrance fees) there was a fairly large notice in English on the counter informing visitors that the National Parks policy regarding entrance fees for foreigners has been changed and that presentation of Thai driving licences or work permits no longer qualifies for discounted admission.  It made no mention of any other forms of ID.

I had a little chat with the gate keeper (in Thai) smiled nicely and presented my 'Pink ID card' and was instantly given the Thai entrance fee rate for the both of us

FYI - the entrance fees are as follows:

Thais = 100 THB for adults and 50THB for children.

Foreigners = 300 THB for adults and 200 THB for children.

 20 THB for motorbikes and 30 THB for other vehicles.

Not sure why some won't accept it in English or as a foreign currency account as they will accept a letter from an embassy which is normally in English and gives details of income in foreign currency.

I had no problem with my local IO accepting the letter and I was able to produce the account passbook showing the same amount as stated in the letter. The passbook had been updated the day before I went to the IO.

My recent letter from BB HQ in English.

Letter from Bangkok Bank_Redacted.pdf

"He had a cuddly toy with him and was decidedly irked when a young Thai man on a motorcycle blocked his path.

4 hours ago, hawker9000 said:

Source please.

For a starter try looking at the Immigration Act B.E.2522.  In particular Section 26 which states:

“The owner or person in charge of any conveyance entering into or leaving the Kingdom must submit a list (passenger and crew) in accordance with the pattern prescribed in the Ministerial Regulations and must be inspected by the competent official at the place and under conditions published by the Director General.”

For additional clarity the Act provides the following definitions:

“Conveyance” means any vehicle or beast of burden or any other object(s) which may be used in conveying persons from one place to another.

“Owner of Conveyance” includes an agent of the owner, a person renting, an agent if the person renting, possessor, or an agent of the possessor of the conveyance, as the case may be.

“Person in charge of conveyance” means the master of the vessel or person responsible for the control of the conveyance.

So in reality all international airlines arriving in Thailand have had to provide passenger information since 1979.  The Advance Passenger Information System (APIS) just updates the process to facilitate automated checking.

FYI – The actual requirements for airlines to uses APIS are contained within the agreements between the international airline and the Civil Aviation Authority of Thailand (CAAT).  If the international airline wants to fly into Thailand they have no option to comply with the CAAT requirements.

OP…. You have indicated that your sister was denied boarding at Heathrow Airport and that this is due to her having been deported from the Kingdom some 23 years ago.  You also indicate that she was informed that her case is still pending.

With regard to her being denied boarding at Heathrow that was because the Airline (as required) provided her biographical data to the Advance Passenger Information System (APIS) which in turn would have relayed her details to both the UK law enforcement agencies and to Thailand immigration, customs and Royal Thai Police special branch.  Each agencies computer system would then check their respective databases to see if she is ‘known’ to them.  The chances are that the immigration database indicated that she has a ban, and as a result, the APIS would provide a feedback code to the airline indicating deny boarding.

The APIS feedback code which the airline receives simply indicates accept for boarding or deny boarding, so there is no way the airline would know the reasons for the denial.  I would be very interested to know who informed her that she had been denied boarding because her case is still pending.

Whilst it is possible that she was given a ‘life time ban’ 23 years ago, in todays situation, such a ban would be unusual for the offence that she is alleged to have committed.  I suspect that when her records were entered onto the immigration computer system there is a reasonable probability that the clerk doing the input may have entered that incorrect date when the ban was due to expire.  This being the case it will be much easier to resolve.

With regards to resolving the problem.  As others have already indicated, unfortunately there is no way that the problem can be sorted this side of Christmas.

Some have suggested that you contact a lawyer to help resolve the problem.  The problem with this is that many lawyers will say that they can get it sorted as they have connections in high places within immigration.  Unfortunately, as has all too often reported in this forum Thai lawyers are only interested in sending you large bills.

If I was in your situation, I would get a copy of your sister’s passport and go to the immigration headquarters at Suan Plu in Bangkok and plead the case.  They will be able to tell you if she has a ‘life’ ban and if there was an input error (as has been reported by another post some time ago), they will get it corrected fairly quickly.

Sorry that your Christmas has been spoilt.  Good luck

10 hours ago, watcharacters said:

 

 

 

Time out,   please.

 

 

What I'm saying is if such a plan were enacted it would by definition mean EVERY international flight would  have to have the same reporting standard.

 

I can only see that as a reporting mess.   Boondoggle.

 

 

Thailand would certainly deserve no special status with this.

 

Oh,   your flight has been delayed due to reporting issues or conflicts..

 

 

You see my point?    I hope so as I've lost the plot..   Or was there ever any?

FYI -  The Advance Passenger Information System (APIS) was developed as a joint project between the USA (NSA) and the UK (GCHQ) following the 911 terrorist attack in 2001.

The system was first implemented by the USA in 2005 and required all international carriers with flight destined for any airport with the USA to provide passenger biographical details prior to the passenger boarding the aircraft.  US Customs & Boarder Protection who operated the system at the time would then check their databases to see if anything was known about the passenger and give the airline clearance to accept the passenger for boarding or advise the airline to deny boarding.

Since its introduction in 2005, 25 other countries have introduced APIS requirements and over 300 international airlines booking systems are now providing API. 

Thailand introduced APIS in late 2015 (with a transition period of 12 months), so now all passengers arriving at any one of the 6 international airport will have been screened before they boarded the aircraft.

Because the interchange of information (via APIS) between the airline and the destination counties law enforcement agencies is very fast, the chance of a flight being delayed by the APIS are very remote. 

I think if there were massive delays cause by the system, as you have suggested, passengers and airlines would be up in arms and there would have been considerable media attention given to the problem.  That has not been the case.

59 minutes ago, jeab1980 said:

Why would I be disapointed?  I merely pointed out I booked a flight 2 hrs before take off. On a weekend earl morning. As for this on line checking Christ alive Thai immigration cant even get a simple 90 day report procedure to work properly. An integrated system with other countries 5555 what a joke

Sorry, but you are miss quoting yourself.  What you actually said in your post No. 50 was:

“Last time I flew out of heathrow last year in December I booked a very very last minute flight 2 hrs before the flight departed to be precise. No way they could have sent anything to immigration here before I left it was 0200 here on a Sunday morning 1900 from UK on a saturday.

So there is more to this than quoted”

My response was to inform you that the APIS can, and does, transfer passenger passport details to the destination country even in the case of a last minute booking.

FYI - APIS has nothing to do with 90 day reporting.

6 hours ago, hawker9000 said:

So which airlines "participate" and which airlines don't?  What's the "mandate" to "participate", if any?  If the vast majority do, or all oceanic or long-haul flights do, I'm impressed.  If just Thai-flagged airlines do, not so much.  "Non-participating" is pretty much just a fancy term for "status-quo".  

 

 

As I have mentioned in previous posts, there are currently 26 countries operating the Advance Passenger Information System (APIS).  Any international airline flying into a country operating APIS must provide basic passport information for each passenger prior to the passenger boarding the aircraft.

The mandate is quite simple – It’s part of the airlines agreement with the aviation authority of the destination country.  If the airline wants to fly into a country operating APIS then they must comply with that countries requirements or they don’t get landing rights.

FYI – Thailand is one of the countries operating APIS (although they call it Advance Passenger Information Service).  The only time that some airlines would be providing passenger passport info and some not would be during the initial implementation period.  That said, the implementation period can be up to a year.

16 hours ago, Danielsiam said:

How Heathrow can access to Thailand Immigration Database ?

 

Or she was denied entry at Bangkok airport ?

 

Really weird, if it was 23 years ago, it will appear nothing on her new passport.

Since when Thailand Immigration share her information to the UK authority.. weird weird, need more explaination

FYI – There are currently 26 countries operating the Advance Passenger Information System (APIS).  Basically this requires any international airline flying into any one of these countries to provide basic passport information of the passenger before boarding.

The passenger passport info is collected by the airline either at the time of booking or during the check-in process and automatically passed to the APIS server in the country of departure..

The APIS server then passes the passenger passport info immigration, customs and law enforcement systems in both the country of departure and country of destination.  Each system (immigration/customs/law enforcement) will automatically compare the passport details with that contained in their respective databases and either give a code back to the APIS that the passenger is clear to board or should be refused boarding.  This code is then relayed back to the airline.  The process only takes matter of a few seconds to complete.  The airline only has a code indicating OK to board or refuse, they are not given any reason for the refusal.

Information sharing between immigration from various countries does occur, but only under very special circumstances.  It is not something that happens on an every day basic or routine matter.

5 hours ago, BritTim said:

......   As I stated previously, immigration (whether at the local immigration office or at the border) has no power to cancel visas. There are processes following legal proceedings where people can be deported and blacklisted, and the Ministry of Foreign Affairs invalidate unexpired visas, but I am sure that is not what we are talking about.

 

Tim… Sorry to contradict you, but immigration does have the power to revoke a visa, not the Ministry of Foreign Affairs (MFA) as you have indicated.

The MFA only acts as an agent for the Ministry of the Interior (MoI) when it comes to issuing visas in overseas countries.  It is the MoI which has overall responsibility for all matters relating to immigration.  

The Immigration Bureau comes under the control of the MoI and it is responsible for applying/enforcing the Immigration Act (B.E. 2522).

It must be borne in mind that having a visa does not guarantee that the individual will be admitted into the country.  You will find that within the Immigration Act there are numerus clause which give the ‘competent official’ (IO) the powers to revoke entry/permission to stay etc.

So for example:  An individual has received a 10 year ban resulting from a conviction of a serious crime within Thailand.  Once back in their home country the individual obtains a visa from their local Embassy/Consulate (because the Embassy/Consulate do not have access to the immigration system they would not know that the individual has been banned). 

The individual then tries to re-enter the Kingdom and the moment the IO scans the passport the individual is flagged as having been banned.  The IO will refuse entry and cancel the visa to prevent further attempts at re-entry.  The individual has the right to appeal against the entry and visa being revoked, but the appeal is made to the Immigration Commission who would have the final say, and not the MFA.