007 RED

"He had a cuddly toy with him and was decidedly irked when a young Thai man on a motorcycle blocked his path.

4 hours ago, hawker9000 said:

Source please.

For a starter try looking at the Immigration Act B.E.2522.  In particular Section 26 which states:

“The owner or person in charge of any conveyance entering into or leaving the Kingdom must submit a list (passenger and crew) in accordance with the pattern prescribed in the Ministerial Regulations and must be inspected by the competent official at the place and under conditions published by the Director General.”

For additional clarity the Act provides the following definitions:

“Conveyance” means any vehicle or beast of burden or any other object(s) which may be used in conveying persons from one place to another.

“Owner of Conveyance” includes an agent of the owner, a person renting, an agent if the person renting, possessor, or an agent of the possessor of the conveyance, as the case may be.

“Person in charge of conveyance” means the master of the vessel or person responsible for the control of the conveyance.

So in reality all international airlines arriving in Thailand have had to provide passenger information since 1979.  The Advance Passenger Information System (APIS) just updates the process to facilitate automated checking.

FYI – The actual requirements for airlines to uses APIS are contained within the agreements between the international airline and the Civil Aviation Authority of Thailand (CAAT).  If the international airline wants to fly into Thailand they have no option to comply with the CAAT requirements.

OP…. You have indicated that your sister was denied boarding at Heathrow Airport and that this is due to her having been deported from the Kingdom some 23 years ago.  You also indicate that she was informed that her case is still pending.

With regard to her being denied boarding at Heathrow that was because the Airline (as required) provided her biographical data to the Advance Passenger Information System (APIS) which in turn would have relayed her details to both the UK law enforcement agencies and to Thailand immigration, customs and Royal Thai Police special branch.  Each agencies computer system would then check their respective databases to see if she is ‘known’ to them.  The chances are that the immigration database indicated that she has a ban, and as a result, the APIS would provide a feedback code to the airline indicating deny boarding.

The APIS feedback code which the airline receives simply indicates accept for boarding or deny boarding, so there is no way the airline would know the reasons for the denial.  I would be very interested to know who informed her that she had been denied boarding because her case is still pending.

Whilst it is possible that she was given a ‘life time ban’ 23 years ago, in todays situation, such a ban would be unusual for the offence that she is alleged to have committed.  I suspect that when her records were entered onto the immigration computer system there is a reasonable probability that the clerk doing the input may have entered that incorrect date when the ban was due to expire.  This being the case it will be much easier to resolve.

With regards to resolving the problem.  As others have already indicated, unfortunately there is no way that the problem can be sorted this side of Christmas.

Some have suggested that you contact a lawyer to help resolve the problem.  The problem with this is that many lawyers will say that they can get it sorted as they have connections in high places within immigration.  Unfortunately, as has all too often reported in this forum Thai lawyers are only interested in sending you large bills.

If I was in your situation, I would get a copy of your sister’s passport and go to the immigration headquarters at Suan Plu in Bangkok and plead the case.  They will be able to tell you if she has a ‘life’ ban and if there was an input error (as has been reported by another post some time ago), they will get it corrected fairly quickly.

Sorry that your Christmas has been spoilt.  Good luck

10 hours ago, watcharacters said:

 

 

 

Time out,   please.

 

 

What I'm saying is if such a plan were enacted it would by definition mean EVERY international flight would  have to have the same reporting standard.

 

I can only see that as a reporting mess.   Boondoggle.

 

 

Thailand would certainly deserve no special status with this.

 

Oh,   your flight has been delayed due to reporting issues or conflicts..

 

 

You see my point?    I hope so as I've lost the plot..   Or was there ever any?

FYI -  The Advance Passenger Information System (APIS) was developed as a joint project between the USA (NSA) and the UK (GCHQ) following the 911 terrorist attack in 2001.

The system was first implemented by the USA in 2005 and required all international carriers with flight destined for any airport with the USA to provide passenger biographical details prior to the passenger boarding the aircraft.  US Customs & Boarder Protection who operated the system at the time would then check their databases to see if anything was known about the passenger and give the airline clearance to accept the passenger for boarding or advise the airline to deny boarding.

Since its introduction in 2005, 25 other countries have introduced APIS requirements and over 300 international airlines booking systems are now providing API. 

Thailand introduced APIS in late 2015 (with a transition period of 12 months), so now all passengers arriving at any one of the 6 international airport will have been screened before they boarded the aircraft.

Because the interchange of information (via APIS) between the airline and the destination counties law enforcement agencies is very fast, the chance of a flight being delayed by the APIS are very remote. 

I think if there were massive delays cause by the system, as you have suggested, passengers and airlines would be up in arms and there would have been considerable media attention given to the problem.  That has not been the case.

59 minutes ago, jeab1980 said:

Why would I be disapointed?  I merely pointed out I booked a flight 2 hrs before take off. On a weekend earl morning. As for this on line checking Christ alive Thai immigration cant even get a simple 90 day report procedure to work properly. An integrated system with other countries 5555 what a joke

Sorry, but you are miss quoting yourself.  What you actually said in your post No. 50 was:

“Last time I flew out of heathrow last year in December I booked a very very last minute flight 2 hrs before the flight departed to be precise. No way they could have sent anything to immigration here before I left it was 0200 here on a Sunday morning 1900 from UK on a saturday.

So there is more to this than quoted”

My response was to inform you that the APIS can, and does, transfer passenger passport details to the destination country even in the case of a last minute booking.

FYI - APIS has nothing to do with 90 day reporting.

6 hours ago, hawker9000 said:

So which airlines "participate" and which airlines don't?  What's the "mandate" to "participate", if any?  If the vast majority do, or all oceanic or long-haul flights do, I'm impressed.  If just Thai-flagged airlines do, not so much.  "Non-participating" is pretty much just a fancy term for "status-quo".  

 

 

As I have mentioned in previous posts, there are currently 26 countries operating the Advance Passenger Information System (APIS).  Any international airline flying into a country operating APIS must provide basic passport information for each passenger prior to the passenger boarding the aircraft.

The mandate is quite simple – It’s part of the airlines agreement with the aviation authority of the destination country.  If the airline wants to fly into a country operating APIS then they must comply with that countries requirements or they don’t get landing rights.

FYI – Thailand is one of the countries operating APIS (although they call it Advance Passenger Information Service).  The only time that some airlines would be providing passenger passport info and some not would be during the initial implementation period.  That said, the implementation period can be up to a year.

16 hours ago, Danielsiam said:

How Heathrow can access to Thailand Immigration Database ?

 

Or she was denied entry at Bangkok airport ?

 

Really weird, if it was 23 years ago, it will appear nothing on her new passport.

Since when Thailand Immigration share her information to the UK authority.. weird weird, need more explaination

FYI – There are currently 26 countries operating the Advance Passenger Information System (APIS).  Basically this requires any international airline flying into any one of these countries to provide basic passport information of the passenger before boarding.

The passenger passport info is collected by the airline either at the time of booking or during the check-in process and automatically passed to the APIS server in the country of departure..

The APIS server then passes the passenger passport info immigration, customs and law enforcement systems in both the country of departure and country of destination.  Each system (immigration/customs/law enforcement) will automatically compare the passport details with that contained in their respective databases and either give a code back to the APIS that the passenger is clear to board or should be refused boarding.  This code is then relayed back to the airline.  The process only takes matter of a few seconds to complete.  The airline only has a code indicating OK to board or refuse, they are not given any reason for the refusal.

Information sharing between immigration from various countries does occur, but only under very special circumstances.  It is not something that happens on an every day basic or routine matter.

5 hours ago, BritTim said:

......   As I stated previously, immigration (whether at the local immigration office or at the border) has no power to cancel visas. There are processes following legal proceedings where people can be deported and blacklisted, and the Ministry of Foreign Affairs invalidate unexpired visas, but I am sure that is not what we are talking about.

 

Tim… Sorry to contradict you, but immigration does have the power to revoke a visa, not the Ministry of Foreign Affairs (MFA) as you have indicated.

The MFA only acts as an agent for the Ministry of the Interior (MoI) when it comes to issuing visas in overseas countries.  It is the MoI which has overall responsibility for all matters relating to immigration.  

The Immigration Bureau comes under the control of the MoI and it is responsible for applying/enforcing the Immigration Act (B.E. 2522).

It must be borne in mind that having a visa does not guarantee that the individual will be admitted into the country.  You will find that within the Immigration Act there are numerus clause which give the ‘competent official’ (IO) the powers to revoke entry/permission to stay etc.

So for example:  An individual has received a 10 year ban resulting from a conviction of a serious crime within Thailand.  Once back in their home country the individual obtains a visa from their local Embassy/Consulate (because the Embassy/Consulate do not have access to the immigration system they would not know that the individual has been banned). 

The individual then tries to re-enter the Kingdom and the moment the IO scans the passport the individual is flagged as having been banned.  The IO will refuse entry and cancel the visa to prevent further attempts at re-entry.  The individual has the right to appeal against the entry and visa being revoked, but the appeal is made to the Immigration Commission who would have the final say, and not the MFA.

9 hours ago, lou62 said:

I've got a Yellow Book, Driver's license and ID card. I've found the ID Card to be basically worthless. A waste of time and money even bothering.

3 hours ago, Maestro said:

 

How much did the ID card cost you?

It cost me 50 Baht, a few minutes to fill in the application form and have my photo taken.  No real hassle.

I recovered the cost the first time I used it to enter Erawan National Park in Kanchanaburi.  I showed them my pink ID card and was given Thai entrance rate.  Saving 200 Baht.

PS.  There was a notice in English at the pay station advising that they no longer accept Thai driving licence or work permit to obtain Thai entrance rate.

1 hour ago, UKJASE said:

Thanks for all your help with this guys - she will appreciate everyone's opinions. 

 

I asked her when her thai passport was issued, and it was issued after she arrived back to Thailand, after a long time away.  So it does not have any exit stamps in it, in fact it has never been used.

 

Will this make it easier just for her to leave on her thai passport, and enter europe on her dutch passport?

 

Also, is there a chance that upon return, she will be stamped out, and not stamped into an onward country (on her thai passport) so the IO will ask to see her other passport, at which time the overstay may show up?

OK your friend has a new (clean) Thai passport, but unfortunately that does not guarantee that she will not encounter a problem when leaving the Kingdom using it.

Regardless of her going through the eGate, or presenting her Thai passport to the IO, the moment that the passport is scanned (the scanner reads the information at the bottom of the photo page between the <<<< >>>>) the immigration system will detect that the Thai passport is not known to the system.  The system will then do a cross-check using the gender code + date of birth + family name + first name(s) against the details held in the immigration database.  Despite the massive size of the database, the cross-check actually only takes a matter of seconds.

As you previously advised, your friends details are the same in both passports, therefore, the system will almost certainly (that is to say greater than 80% chance) identify that there is a Dutch passport in the system having the same personal details.  This will be flagged up on the IO’s monitor who will also be presented with the photo of your friend which was taken when she was admitted to the Kingdom on her Dutch passport.

Sorry to be so pessimistic, but as I said in an earlier post, unfortunately your friend has dropped herself in the proverbial fertiliser and unfortunately there is no easy or set solution to the problem.  Much will depend on the IO, which no one can predict.

If I was in her shoes, I would expect the worse.  That is to say prepare for the possibility of a 20,000 Baht fine for the 11 month overstay and a one year ban in her Dutch passport.  Anything less than that will be a bonus.  As mentioned before, if this does happen she will still be able to return to Thailand but she must ensure that she uses her Thai passport.  Although the Thai and Dutch passports will be linked on the Immigration system, as a Thai citizen she will be not be denied entry when using her Thai passport.

Regarding re-entering the Netherlands with her Dutch passport, that should not be a problem as more and more countries no longer engross passports with entry/exit stamps.

Good luck to your friend and let us know the eventual outcome.

33 minutes ago, Mattd said:

100% agree, we can all speculate, but none us truly know the answer.

I do wonder what would happen if she had previously departed Thailand on her Thai passport and then tried to depart Thailand on her Thai passport via an egate, there surely is a possibility that it would not allow her to depart due to the discrepancy of her technically not being in the country? The office building I work in has a smart card system for entry / exit for the lift lobbies, if the system did not register you going through it (in either direction) then it will not open to let you through again.

In this age of terrorism, then I am not entirely convinced that Governments don't care about the movement of their citizens, especially dual passport holders.

Quite correct about the egate in the scenario you gave.  The moment that she puts her passport onto the scanner the immigration system will flag up a possible problem e.g. previous exit but no entry, and an IO will then take her to one side for further examination/questioning.

40 minutes ago, BritTim said:

I believe you are quoting the correct translation of Section 62. However, I do not think the penalties under Section 62 apply to overstays. They basically are concerned with illegal entry.

 

The penalties for overstay are addressed in Section 81, and are (I believe) only intended to apply to foreigners. I do not think it is possible for Thai citizens to actually be on overstay, unless they are denying their citizenship status. Entering Thailand using a foreign passport does muddy the waters, but I do not think a judge would uphold a fine applicable only to aliens once Thai citizenship was established.

Tim… you are absolutely correct in pointing out that Section 62 penalty deals with illegal entry (including Thai nationals) and not overstay.  My post was in response to another person (Post 18) who introduced Section 62 and then miss-quoted the possible fine, and then said that I was talking nonsense when I pointed out the error.  Sorry if that went off topic.

I think you are also correct in your assumption that a Thai national cannot be charged with overstay.  However, the lady in question entered the Kingdom using her Dutch passport, so technically she is here as a Dutch citizen, not a Thai national.  She may well find that immigration will regard her as a Dutch citizen who has overstayed by 11 months and as such she could be liable to a 20,000 Baht overstay fine and a possible one year ban being stamped in her Dutch passport for overstaying longer than 90 days.

The ban on the Dutch passport will not cause her a problem provided that if she wants to visits the Kingdom again in the future she remembers to uses her Thai Passport.  She will just not be able to use the Dutch one until the ban period has run out.  Also getting a new Dutch passport will not work as the immigration system will quickly link her new passport to the old one.

Regarding your observation that a Judge would be unlikely to impose a fine on a Thai National.  That may possibly be true, but I’m not in a position to comment on that.  However, to make such an appeal would be both costly and time consuming bearing in mind how ‘efficient’ the Thai legal system is.

2 hours ago, realenglish1 said:

It is not an issue since immigration does not care about a Thai who entered the Kingdom......

 

If Thai immigration do not care about a Thai who enters and leaves the Kingdom, then why do they have to go through the immigration check point?

I can assure you that if this lady has been previously checked out of the Kingdom on her Thai passport and then she submits it to the IO on her forthcoming departure, it will be ‘flagged up’ and the IO will no doubt be asking questions as to why she is not showing as having arrived in the Kingdom.

Bear in mind that the Immigration Act (Sections: 11: 18 & 62) can penalise a Thai national who has entered the Kingdom incorrectly or without submitting the correct documentation which can result in a fine not exceeding 20,000Baht.

What the IO will do in this particular case is anyone’s guess.

14 hours ago, paz said:

 

Nonsense. I quoted a translation of the law, should I quote the original in Thai? 

 

Before saying that someone’s post is “nonsense” and stating “I quoted a translation of the law, should I quote the original in Thai?”, you really need to get your facts correct and come down off that high horse.

You stated in Post No. 20 the following:

“Section 62

Whoever fails to comply with the provisions of Sections 11 or 18 paragraph two shall be punished by imprisonment not exceeding two years and a fine not exceeding twenty thousand baht.

If the person committing an offence under paragraph one is a Thai national, the offender will be punished by a fine not exceeding two thousand baht.”

In my Post No. 21, I pointed out that the fine for the Thai national is in fact 20,000 Baht and not two thousand (2,000) Baht as you had indicated.

The source of my information concerning the Immigration Act B.E. 2522 is derived from the opening page of this particular forum - Thai visas, residency and work permits forum.  Just scroll down to the information section entitled Laws, regulations, Police Orders, etc. and open it.  Then scroll down to No. 17 – Immigration Act B.E. 2522 English translation, and open the PDF.  You will then see that Section 62 states the following:

“Whoever fails to comply with the provisions of Section 11 or Para.2 of Section 18 shall be punished by imprisonment not exceeding two years and a fine not exceeding 20,000 Baht.

If the person committing an offense under Para.1, holds Thai citizenship he will be punished by a fine not exceeding 20,000 Baht”.

If you Google Thai Immigration Act B.E. 2522, you will see a number of other English translations of the Act and they all concur with what I have indicated that the fine shall not exceed 20,000 Baht.

No apology necessary – we all make mistakes.

18 minutes ago, paz said:

Section 62 Whoever fails to comply with the provisions of Sections 11 or 18 paragraph two shall be punished by imprisonment not exceeding two years and a fine not exceeding twenty thousand baht.

If the person committing an offence under paragraph one is a Thai national, the offender will be punished by a fine not exceeding two thousand baht.

 

Sorry to correct you, but the fine for a Thai National is also 20K Baht, they just don't get the possible 2 year imprisonment.

22 minutes ago, paz said:

Do you realize that a Thai cannot be banned from Thailand? And that even if Immigration tries, no judge would "treat her as foreigner", in a court?

Using a foreign passport does not make anyone lose his citizenship, status, and rights!

Note, is not difficult to go to court, these are the "judge review" cases that usually last few minutes when over-stayers are caught then sent to IDC. Immigration does not have the last word, only the Judge has. If you are interested I can point you to the section in the Immigration Act that deals with Thais entering Thailand illegally.

No need to shout! 

I am not suggesting that she will be banned from Thailand as a Thai National or that she will lose her citizenship.

The fact is that she used her Dutch passport to enter the Kingdom and hence the overstay ban will be placed in her Dutch passport which will prevent her from entering the Kingdom again using a Dutch passport for the duration of the ban.   She will, however, still be able to re-enter the Kingdom using her Thai passport.

Yes I would be very interested in what section of the Immigration Act BE2522 deals with Thais entering the Kingdom illegally.

OP… Your friend has got really herself into the fertiliser and unfortunately there is no quick fix solution to her problem.

As I understand it from your original post, she entered Thailand using her Dutch passport and has now overstayed 11 months.  Your friend is a Thai national and also holds a Thai passport.

Because your friend entered the Kingdom on her Dutch passport, Thai immigration will treat her as a foreign national, regardless of the fact that she is a Thai national and also holds a Thai passport.  Therefore, if she surrenders to immigration and leaves Thailand on her Dutch passport she is going to be liable to a 20K Baht fine plus a one year ban.  If she stays another month the ban will be increased to 3 years.

If she tries to leave using her Thai passport much will depend upon whether she has used it before to enter/leave the Kingdom.  If she used it to leave the Kingdom previously, then the moment the IO scans her passport they will see that your friend has never re-entered the Kingdom and the IO will be asking questions as to how/when she entered the Kingdom.  Odds are, she will have to then admit she entered on her Dutch passport and has overstayed – outcome fine & ban.

If your friend has never used her Thai passport previously to enter/leave the Kingdom she will be able to use it and leave without a problem.  However, she will not be able to return to Thailand using her Dutch passport (even a new one) as the moment the IO scans the passport the IO will see that your friend has a previous entry record but no record of leaving Thailand. This will trigger a lot of very awkward questions.

As someone has already suggested, she will have to bite the bullet and accept that she is going to be fined and get a banned stamp in her Dutch passport.  Next time she should use her Thai passport to enter the Kingdom.

1 hour ago, Headgame said:

Can a third party transfer funds to my BKK bank account in Thailand by transferring funds through the BKK New York branch?

If I wanted to, my three UK pensions providers could transfer my pensions directly to my BB in BKK.  I have chosen not to do use this option as each transfer will incur a transfer fee of 20 GBP.  Instead my pensions are deposited into my UK bank account and I do one transfer online when I require.

http://www.bangkokbank.com/BangkokBank/PersonalBanking/DailyBanking/TransferingFunds/TransferringIntoThailand/ReceivingFundsfromUK/Pages/ReceivingFundsfromUK.aspx

2 hours ago, Tanoshi said:

What kind of Foreign Currency account do you have, Savings, Fixed deposit or Current?

 

You obviously chose the - Specifying a foreign bank as Paying Bank (Advance Payment)
0.25%, or 500 baht min fee, no maximum fee.

http://www.bangkokbank.com/BangkokBankThai/Documents/Site Documents/Interest Rates/FeesFCD_Table5_151116_En.pdf

FYI… My BB account is a Saving Foreign Currency Deposit Account (SFDA). 

I do an online transfer of funds from my UK bank account to BB London in GBP.  BB London then transfer the GBP funds (less their transfer fee of 20GBP) to my BB BKK SFCDA. 

Upon receiving the transferred funds (GBP) BB BKK charge an additional transfer fee of between 200 and 500 BHT depending upon the amount that I have transferred.  Transfer is normally cleared next day.

When I wish to withdraw funds from my BB BKK account I can do so in either GBP or in THB.  If I opt for THB then BB BKK use the TT Rate for that day/time.

Details http://www.bangkokbank.com/BangkokBank/PersonalBanking/DailyBanking/TransferingFunds/TransferringIntoThailand/ReceivingFundsfromUK/Pages/ReceivingFundsfromUK.aspx

8 minutes ago, bttao said:

Thanks all you guys for the help...

Another easy question:

Can the funds deposited in a Foreign Currency Account be used towards the Immigration 800K  requirement for Thai Retirement Visa/yearly extension; or it has to be in Baht?

Immigration will accept your FCA in US$ as funds for extension.  You will need to request a letter from the bank (charge 100BHT) confirming funds available.  Best to get this the day before you go to immigration.  Imigration may also ask to see your passbook.

6 minutes ago, Tanoshi said:

That is for a standard Thai savings account.

(Even so, your wrong. The 200-500 baht fee is not a deposit fee, it's a conversion fee $ to BAHT)

 

The OP asked about a Foreign currency account and my information is correct.

Read the links provided to BKK if you have any doubts

I've had a Foreign Currency Account (GBP) with Bangkok Bank for ten years and transfer GBP from the UK to my  GBP FCA here in BKK on regular basis.

BB London charge me 20GBP to make the transfer and BB BKK then charge me and fee when the funds are deposited to my FCA.  When I want to change GBP to THB they give me the TT rate and no charge is made.

Just now, teacherofwoe said:

Thanks. So my best next move is to contact Immigration Bangkok?

Yes... The IT centre is there and only they have the ability to correct the data.