hammered

And Abhisit's government borrowed a huge amount of money and saddled incoming goevrnments with it for some time to come.

You will see the government equate passports with Thai ID cards because they will try to suggest that his nationality was taken away from him ie. he can't prove he's a Thai national and how every Thai National should defend the right to retain their nationality. The government will conflate these issues as much as possible in order to justify the return of his passport.

I think you are right and that it will then seem to a lot of people that his opponents are making a fuss over not much. There is also the subtle PTP won the let the country decide election and people expect Thaksin to get spomething from this and dont expect the losers to say no to everything. What will the losers agree to? A passport would be an easy one. If they keep saying "no" to everything it undercuts them with the middle. The same as if Thaksin gets a thing or two to continually ask for more undercuts the government with the middle. It is a balancing act but one helped by Thaksin and his side having a whole range of options while his opponents seem to have only no way to say about everything. The first hand is a lot easier to play and those holding it have shon they ar ea lot lot better at playing the game too, so they have a big advantage. We shouldnt forget that most people are not absolutist on the Thaksin conundrum. In fact that position seems to the position of only th emore extreme of his opponents who rather unfortunately have grabbed the agenda of that side leaving by some of their actions their (earstwhile?) more liberal allies openly aghast at their tactics and even being unusually critical of some of the more authoritarian ones recently

The most interesting thing will be how the Thai media deals with this issue and whether information in the report will be available to them either in summary or totality

But we all knew this days ago. Seems like a bit of lazy journalism to rehash it as a story. Surely there are more important things than days old news about Thaksin

This death took place at a political event in a highly charged and confrontational time. The actions of the government at that time in both how they handled events and how and who they decided to investigate were poltical. The actions of those conducting the event were poltical. Now the government has changed and in a political decision the new government have decided to pursue issues not pursued before. Why is anyone surprised? The truth is the state killed a bunch of people as did some non-state actors. Why not try to get to the bottom of it. Chalerm is an odious poltical hatchet man. That doesnt mena everything he says is wrong. And when Suthep was busy accusing the reds of killing everyone and saying the state killed nobody as he initially did, was that an accurate statement. Why would an investigation under Suthep etc be any better than one under Chalerm. However, with info from both we may justr get a better chance to get a glimpse of reality than with just propaganda from one only, and two international reproters were killed and the world media arent going to put up with a line of obvious BS as Suthep has already found out and hopefully this will give Chalerm something to think about too

Yes Im sure there are those very worried about accusations against the military as the military has a habit of being mostly unaccountable and in previous times off limit to attack. However, times have changed and few would deny the military are also a big political player with their own interests who have been quite overt in recent years. This could be messy politically but things do seem to have gone to a level where finding common ground will be difficult vbut there is always the we can forgive each other. Now who was it who sid this? And that was a political statement too

"Why not try to get to the bottom of it."

It would be good if they got to the bottom of it, but you can bet that there won't be much in the way of investigating the other side of the issue.

The outome will likely be poltical in nature whatever it is. Even if (and this is an if) the investigation did get to the bottom of things there would be loads of people who wouldnt beleive the outcome because of the politics. Change the government and it is equally true. However, in this case the interesting thing will be how the international media and the Japanese government take the investigation.

Private investigative report on Japanese cameraman

The Nation

Police have received a private investigative report on a Japanese cameraman killed last April in connection with the political mayhem, Deputy Prime Minister Chalerm Yoobamrung said on Tuesday.

Reuters has commissioned the report on the death of cameraman Hiroyuki Muramoto who covered the April 10 anti-riot operations for the news agency, Chalerm said.

"I believe Reuters did not share the report with the previous government because of differing opinions on the cause of death," he said.

He said the report had 60 pages drawn a similar conclusion to the police inquiry that state officials were suspected to have involved in the killing of Muramoto.

-- The Nation 2011-12-06

Interesting that this report has been handed over just before Abhisit and Suthep are to be interviewed.

Apparently, the investigation was no longer illegal now and that company that did the investigation is ok now with releasing their confidential report.

I was given for the company's failure to share the information was that under Thai law it had been illegal for them to commission a third-party investigation into Hiro's death, and that when commissioning the report, their agreement with the company that handled the investigation was that it would remain confidential.

http://webcache.goog...lient=firefox-a

"Apparently, the investigation was no longer illegal now and that company that did the investigation is ok now with releasing their confidential report"

I don't suppose it's ever crossed your mind that the Democrats might have been economical with truth (they have previous) when explaining this to Reuters as a reason to suppress a report which went against their (amended once already) own version of events?

Journalist groups were concerned about this.

Probably boosting ties because of Thaksin right now. It would have been harder under a Democrat government I would have thought

It seems odd that this thread started with their being clear evidence of who killed the cameraman but Chalerms latest statement seems to be stepping back from this assertion and clear evidence has now become suspicion:

He said the report had 60 pages drawn a similar conclusion to the police inquiry that state officials were suspected to have involved in the killing of Muramoto.

Hopefully the actual information will be released or acted on soon so the political games on this specific event can be brought to an end.

The actual piece of the report that has been cited verbatim is pretty clear on which body killed the rpeorter and which calibre of bullet. However, this is all within a highly charged poltical atmosphere and positions will sway

The comments by the PAD guy on who is going to need amnesties in the piece on getting Thaksin back to to Thailandin the unmentionable news source the other day are interesting. He seemed fairly blunt in stating why the democrats would need amnesties

Private investigative report on Japanese cameraman

The Nation

Police have received a private investigative report on a Japanese cameraman killed last April in connection with the political mayhem, Deputy Prime Minister Chalerm Yoobamrung said on Tuesday.

Reuters has commissioned the report on the death of cameraman Hiroyuki Muramoto who covered the April 10 anti-riot operations for the news agency, Chalerm said.

"I believe Reuters did not share the report with the previous government because of differing opinions on the cause of death," he said.

He said the report had 60 pages drawn a similar conclusion to the police inquiry that state officials were suspected to have involved in the killing of Muramoto.

-- The Nation 2011-12-06

Interesting that this report has been handed over just before Abhisit and Suthep are to be interviewed.

begin removed ...

On April 10 in Pattaya at least one protester was shot in the leg by the "Blue Shirts" - a state organized militia, which until today has not been officially investigated.

I don't appreciate it when people assume they can connect dots based on insufficient evidence.

On 2011-05-07 you only wrote "As an example i would just like to cite the completely missing investigations into the “Blue Shirts”, their attacks against the Red Shirts, the known instigators and their complete impunity." By now it's 'state organised militia', surely you forwarded the "clear" evidence to the appropriate authorities, like police, local Pheu Thai MP or the like ?

The discussions here keep amazing me, especially the lack of 'clear evidence'. IMHO

The blue shirt group were a Newin-Suthep initiative that included among others some state officials donning the blue shirts from what I hear around Chonburi where they were active. You never know with gossip but I havent heard a single other explanation locally. A lot of local people back then were angry with the red shirts and Arisaman over the hotel "invasion". The blue shirts it turned out werent popualr either. Still that was then. Sympathies have changed a real lot since those days.

Politics is mostly about perception and not evidence. Thats true for all sides in this little affair and any other political one I guess

This death took place at a political event in a highly charged and confrontational time. The actions of the government at that time in both how they handled events and how and who they decided to investigate were poltical. The actions of those conducting the event were poltical. Now the government has changed and in a political decision the new government have decided to pursue issues not pursued before. Why is anyone surprised? The truth is the state killed a bunch of people as did some non-state actors. Why not try to get to the bottom of it. Chalerm is an odious poltical hatchet man. That doesnt mena everything he says is wrong. And when Suthep was busy accusing the reds of killing everyone and saying the state killed nobody as he initially did, was that an accurate statement. Why would an investigation under Suthep etc be any better than one under Chalerm. However, with info from both we may justr get a better chance to get a glimpse of reality than with just propaganda from one only, and two international reproters were killed and the world media arent going to put up with a line of obvious BS as Suthep has already found out and hopefully this will give Chalerm something to think about too

Yes Im sure there are those very worried about accusations against the military as the military has a habit of being mostly unaccountable and in previous times off limit to attack. However, times have changed and few would deny the military are also a big political player with their own interests who have been quite overt in recent years. This could be messy politically but things do seem to have gone to a level where finding common ground will be difficult vbut there is always the we can forgive each other. Now who was it who sid this? And that was a political statement too

Surapong said the move would help reconcile Thai people on both sides of the political divide.

For the red shirts, reconciliation is about doing everything that the red shirts want and stuff what everyone else thinks.

out of interest, what is reconciliation for the yellow shirts?

Yes, good question. Anyone wish to respond to this critical request?

Reconcialiation for the yellow shirts is reconcilliation on their terms. That is no different from red shirts, Dems, elite, PTP or whetever. They all have their own different ideas of what it is. All of those ideas are political and hence the whole notion of reconcilliation can only be resolved in the poltcial arena, which is fairly obvious anyway. Right now the rules of how that will be resolved in the poltical arena are not agreed on. Reconcilliation cannot be achieved by trying to sideline either reds or Thaksin which is something the yellow shirts actually know and would try to get round by an alternative form of democracy. Reconcillaition also needs to include the Democrat party.

The main players in terms of numbers are the PTP, the reds, Thaksin and the Democrat party. The other players dont have numbers although in the case of the military they have weaponry and the elite have their influence and connections and at the have an alliance with the democrat party. The yellow shirts these days have denounced all of the other players although Thaksin still seems to be number one enemy.

Reconcilliation for a lot of ordinary people just seems to consist of anything that makes the whole thing end from what I see. The problem is how do you reconcile extremes with the question of do you have to reconcile them? Democracy is really a system for resolving differences with a winner and loser if there is no consensus. And of course the winner and loser can change over time. Thailand has for a long time had a demcoracy where all the parties pretty much were the same, had the same ideology if they had any ideology, parties coexisted or even subordinated themsleves to vested interests, MPs changed parties just to always be in government etc. In more recent times this polity unity has developed into a more comabtive system exposing and sidelining the power of the extra-parliamentary players to at least some degree. At some point this will all be moved on with a more adversarial democracy developing not disimilar to what is seen in other countries, and while the influence of extra-parlaimentary players will never go away totoally as in other countires, the nature of who, how and the level of power they have will change if history is anything to go by. The interesting thing is a lot of Thai people say things will be better in the future and seem quite positive in the longer term.

What staggers me is that with all of the troubles currently faced by this country, Thaksin is occupying the first 3 threads of this sub forum. The government really need to get cracking on with a few more things. Thaksin should never have been mentioned by this government for two years until they had got a name for themselves by sorting out a few major problems. It's a bit like buying a new Lambo and Ferrari the day after you do a 20 Million bank heist. Its all a bit obvious really.

What occupies the threads on this news forum isn't necessarily indicative of all the things the government - or anyone else - is doing. In the main, it is a result of TV and the Nation's partnership, focusing on what they think will generate the most interest. Want to hear about annual budget discussions and legal amendments? You won't find them here unless they're considered likely to be controversial or worthy of comment. That's what keeps organs such as TV and the Nation going, after all.

Sales and hits are what it is all about. Media business. Controversy is always a good one. And headlines carefully prepared to gain response are part of it even if they dont reflect the body of the story. Its all business at the end of the day, and dont we just love it;)

Does anyone know the practical differences it makes if Thaksin has a Thai passport?

It will strengthen his position in the global community as a person who isn't a criminal and belongs in jail, but rather one who has been treated unfairly by previous governments and military regimes. After all, I believe it is pretty much standard policy in every civilized country to deny passports and travel documents to convicted criminals, especially those who are on the run from prison sentences and outstanding warrants. If Thailand will give Thaksin a passport, he must be Mr. Clean, right? Robert Amsterdam could make a lot of hay out of this fact.

For the average guy like you and me who can't afford to spend megabucks on a Montenegrin citizenship, having our passports revoked would be drastic indeed. The eventuality would be having to return to our respective homeland to face the laws and due process that caused the revocation. Thaksin will go to every length / spend whatever it takes / bribe anyone possible to avoid this, and even more so of these if he can regain lost face.

"It will strengthen his position in the global community as a person who isn't a criminal and belongs in jail, but rather one who has been treated unfairly by previous governments and military regimes"

sorry to tell you this mate but a lot of people in the global community already do see it like this

one run of the mill poster here already claimed that this was down to his super effective team of a small few western PR firms.. simple as that

oh how easily the "global community" are fooled but the regular TV posters know better than them of course, considering their higher credentials.

And his position was strengthened when "his" party won the election

True Corp Backs Laws Restricting Foreign Firms

Follow this link:

CP aint giving up no competetive advantage in their own back garden

Yep the Dems were famous for 750 million baht dinners

Link?

Its famous. Im sure you can find it

Most logical thinking people fully recognize the details of the political struggle in Thailand and the intra-elite power games and that they will only be resolved at a political level as they are political in nature

Most people recognize it - some people seem to celebrate it. The only right thing to do is to complain and oppose it. To not do so guarantees one has no right to complain about law and order. Or double-standards.

The judiicary as with the legislature and government are all part of the social contract of a democracy under which people agree to be governed, judged and have laws passed in their names in return for a variety of things. If the poeple judge the social contract needs resetting it needs to be. In that way the judiciary is just part of the power politcal group too. All three need to evolve over time with the people. That is not unique to Thailand. It is also a situation that is looking a bit tenuous right now but will hopefully be resolved by sensible actions and decisions and a compromise to avoid further conflict

I don't back any political party here or anywhere else, I think they're all scoundrels, but surely the law must take precedence over their "busy schedules" ?

I'm also interested to know how Mr Abhisit knows the content of the letter, if he hasn't read it, - shame he didn't use his powers of clairvoyance before he called the election.

Let's see if they can get their stories straight, before the waterboarding starts.

They must be very "busy" between their 200K baht lunches and holidays abroad....

That was Yingluck's lunches:

Yep the Dems were famous for 750 million baht dinners

Be interesting to see if there is confirmation of who signed the clearance order and what the details of it were. Also be interesting to see if the media ask this question

I think most people here have read all the Prachatai, New Mandela, Thai Political Prisoners, Bankok Pundit, The Reuters defector whose name escapes me at the moment, Wilileaks, etc. Is it something from other than those mentioned? If so please give a hint.

No it is not one of those but one whose most outspoken poltical forum commentator is more of an extreme yellow colour who precedes any mention of anyone even vaguely connected to Thaksin with "ai" or "ee", but they do have a thoughtful and cross divide news section and some of the best if rare imho poltical analysis.

So it's bullshit, thanks.

Each to their own. I dpont think virtually anyone who has worked out what site I am talking about (and that should be obvious to anyone has read it) would agree with you, as it has a very good reputation. Still I notice a worrying tendency among many on this site to attack the messeenger at all time and to ignore the message or even to try and distract from the message, and even though that may be a little fun for all of us to indulge in, it is really the message that is important and not the messenger

It is good to see this move ahead. If anyone wants reconcialliation it is necessary that the state side are included as part of the process and not just the red side.

Or just say 'The witch hunt begins'.

Many would say it began long long before this government came to power or the events of April or May. Some would say long before Thaksin even dreamed of becoming a politiican. The inequalities that get highlighted over one man have been aroyund unaddressed for a long long time. That is the poroblem. And failing to address them has enabled one opportunist poltical operator, albeit the most talented poltician the country has ever seen, manipulate his way to centrality as a symbol of these. The withch hunt and which one you are talking about really comes down to where in society you are linked a little to which way do your biases fall. Personally I prefer to see a full investigation of state and non-state actors and their roles with as much transparency as possible etc. However, that in th ehighly charged poltical sphere we find is unlikley I think especially as many have too mush to lose

I think most people here have read all the Prachatai, New Mandela, Thai Political Prisoners, Bankok Pundit, The Reuters defector whose name escapes me at the moment, Wilileaks, etc. Is it something from other than those mentioned? If so please give a hint.

No it is not one of those but one whose most outspoken poltical forum commentator is more of an extreme yellow colour who precedes any mention of anyone even vaguely connected to Thaksin with "ai" or "ee", but they do have a thoughtful and cross divide news section and some of the best if rare imho poltical analysis.

As these bodies were stolen from hospital morgues and paraded around various Red Shirt venues. How strong do you think the "chain of evidence" is? I'll answer that for you. It is non-existant. No one could be found guilty based on the report after a usurption of the custodial chain of evidence, as was done in this case, has taken place. The theft of the bodies in more than a little bit suspicious.

Not every body was taken as you seem to intimate. In fact most of those killed were not. It really only undermines your arguement to make sweeping statements that can be so easily be countered by fact.

And forensic evidence also is only ever part of a plethora of evidence that helps build a picture often by confirming or contradicting witness statement. And in this case there is clearly going to be forensic evidence

And according to some foreign reports there are witness statements from within the army that could be interesting too.

Instead of constantly alluding to these reports, why don't you post them?

No I am not going to post them but they are easy enough to find and have been linked to by other English language websites in Thailand. I am sure that anyone who wants to be genuinely as well informed as possible reads the same sites that I do. There arent that many of them in Thailand that are in English

There's people that dispute the Earth is spherical, I've posted a video of the man in question looking away from the army line and receiving a shot to the front of the head; I'm not a ballistics expert, but bullets don't do U-Turns in mid air.

I would suggest to watch films of executions by head shot see how in which direction the victims fall.

I would also wait and see until the the forensic investigations will be publicized, and where the entry and the exit wounds of the bullet were located.

I notice that you say wait until forensic evidence is publicized. I take it then that it exisits and maybe on court record but has not yet been reported on.

As these bodies were stolen from hospital morgues and paraded around various Red Shirt venues. How strong do you think the "chain of evidence" is? I'll answer that for you. It is non-existant. No one could be found guilty based on the report after a usurption of the custodial chain of evidence, as was done in this case, has taken place. The theft of the bodies in more than a little bit suspicious.

Not every body was taken as you seem to intimate. In fact most of those killed were not. It really only undermines your arguement to make sweeping statements that can be so easily be countered by fact.

And forensic evidence also is only ever part of a plethora of evidence that helps build a picture often by confirming or contradicting witness statement. And in this case there is clearly going to be forensic evidence

And according to some foreign reports there are witness statements from within the army that could be interesting too.