Mike Teavee

16 minutes ago, Ben Zioner said:

Doesn't have to be that extreme. Lets say a family of four needs 3 Million a year. Husband transfers 1.5 to support himself and his share of the kids and transfers 1.5 to the wife so that she supports herself and her share of the kids.

 

What will RD do?

 

a) Tax Husband on 3 Million,

b) Tax Husband on 1.5 M and Wife on 1.5 M,

c) Tax  Husband on 1.5 M and consider Wife's money as a gift.

 

I'd be happy with b) but I don't think RD will agree.

 

I believe Gifts under a "Moral Obligation" are valid so would say that C is technically correct and you could even argue that the Husband could gift his Wife 2Million to support herself & 100% of the costs of supporting the kids. 

But whether TRD would see it that way, especially if you were living together is anybody's guess.

Edit: Also think that by reporting an income of 1Million THB you're greatly reducing the risk of being audited. 

8 minutes ago, Mike Lister said:

UK non-doms overseas credit card usage in UK, HMRC

 

https://community.hmrc.gov.uk/customerforums/sa/86d51480-349f-ee11-a81c-000d3a0d1e21

https://www.gov.uk/hmrc-internal-manuals/residence-domicile-and-remittance-basis/rdrm33520

Credit card issued by an overseas bank or other financial institution

Where an overseas credit card is used in the UK, the cardholder is effectively authorising the credit card company to pay the bill for the goods or service in just the same way as if they had instructed the bank to make a payment directly to the person supplying the goods or services.

Which to me says Credit Card use is remittance, so I change my previous opinion on it being a loan but still won't be reporting it 🙂 (NB I only use my CC for Airfares & overseas Hotels, Airfares arguably remittance, overseas hotels not).  

23 minutes ago, Yumthai said:

I read "gratuitously" as: donee does not give something predetermined in the gift contract back in return to the gift.

That does not mean donee cannot do what he/she wants in the future after gift is acted.

 

Besides you can read further:

 

Section 535. The following gifts are not revocable for ingratitude:

1. Gifts purely remuneratory
2. Gifts encumbered with a charge
3. Gifts made in compliance with a moral duty
4. Gifts made in consideration of marriage

 

If a gift can be remuneratory then by definition there is something in return to the gift so not gratis.

 

Again, Thai rules inconsistency or mistranslations ...

Section 535 is referring to gifts that cannot be revoked, remuneration for a gift is not mentioned anywhere else in the "Laws".

There is mention of receiving a Service in consideration for a Gift, but I wouldn't classify the Wife paying all the rent, groceries, utilities etc... and giving you "Pocket Money" as a Service. 

But my main point is as posted above, you put yourself at higher risk of being audited if you were to only remit money as a gift to your wife and not remit anything to yourself to live on. 

8 minutes ago, Yumthai said:

Their interpretation, not backed by any official Thai source.

 

For bulletproof gifting, parents/children/spouse living abroad not being Thai tax residents themselves can gift the parent/child/spouse Thai tax resident up to THB20M a year tax-free.

 

Gifts: https://www.thailandlawonline.com/civil-and-commercial-code/521-536-gift-is-a-contract

NB Section 521. A gift is a contract whereby a person, called the donor, transfers gratuitously a property of his own to another person, called the donee, and the donee accepts such property
 

If somebody were to Guft their wife 20Million THB & have no income coming in to support themselves then clearly there is an expectation she would be supporting him & so the Gift wasn’t give gratuitously.

9 hours ago, proton said:

 

20 million baht to the wife, obviously this is the answer as there are no rules about what she does with the gift. !0 mil to gf, the whole topic is ridiculous.

There is an implicit rule that a Gift is only a Gift if you receive no direct benefit from it, so you gifting the wife 20Million & letting her pay all of the bills/give you pocket money wouldn't (technically) meet the criteria of being a Gift & if you/your wife were audited, it would be easy for them to show that you did receive direct benefits from it, so it wasn't a legitimate Gift & is taxable. 

The 10Million to a GF also comes with some strings as it needs to be for an occasion where in your country you would normally give a gift (E.g. I'm "Gifting" my GF 100K for her Birthday) & again shouldn't be receiving any direct benefit from it (I actually owe her 60K for some investment she made through me in the UK so that will make us straight, but am receiving that "Benefit" in the UK🙂).

Edit: Link to Thai law re Gifts: https://www.thailandlawonline.com/civil-and-commercial-code/521-536-gift-is-a-contract

NB Section 521. A gift is a contract whereby a person, called the donor, transfers gratuitously a property of his own to another person, called the donee, and the donee accepts such property.

3 hours ago, soi3eddie said:

 

Spending on a credit card is not your money. It is the bank's money. A grey area but not a remittance by you  into Thailand. 

I agree as spending on a Credit Card is a actually short term loan between you & your bank, and money remitted from a Loan isn't assessable income however it's still a grey area - Personally I won't be declaring anything I spend on my UK CCs.

A Debit Card would (Technically) be remitting assessable income if the service you're purchasing is in Thailand (e.g. a Flight from Bangkok) but I don't believe it would be if the service isn't in Thailand (e.g. a Hotel in Vietnam).  

38 minutes ago, dayo202 said:

Yip I agree 💯, I got another 10 year's before I can apply for my UK state pension.

The only funds I got is my savings, ISAs, premium bonds back in UK to live on before my state pension kicks in.

So I be correct in saying that I wouldn't be taxed in Thailand for a money I transfer ?

Savings - No Tax,

Cash ISA - No Tax,

Premium Bonds - No Tax

Stocks & Shares ISA (Or other Investment accounts) - Could be liable for tax on Capital Gains & Dividends

6 minutes ago, KhunHeineken said:

So, where do you stand on it, Mike? 

 

Should we all do nothing and carry on as normal? 

 

Should we prepare for finally paying a tax that we now need to start paying, or should have always been paying? 

 

What wins out, "technically or practically?" 

It's up to the individual to look at their circumstances & assess what the best course of action is for them, I'm one of those people that tends to follow the rules so will be adjusting how much money I remit into Thailand & limiting it to...

1. Maximum I know has no tax owed on it (in my case it's 235K)
2. Same for the GF (in her case 210K)

... But I won't be filing a tax return for either of us, even though I know I should, the 2K file is not enough of a deterrent to make me file especially as it would end up with them owing me > 5K in withheld interest from my Thai Bank accounts.

The rest of the money I need to live on will come from savings already in Thailand until 2026 when I plan on spending 6 months outside of Thailand, & applying for an LTR Visa (remitting 10-12 Million to buy a Condo & meet the $250K investment needed for the LTR).

I can't be the only one that's going to be remitting less money because of this change, would be interesting to get any stats on just how much less is being remitted as a direct result of the change (I'd say I'm remitting approx. 25% of what I would normally plan to remit) 

8 minutes ago, KhunHeineken said:

You completely missed my point.

 

The point I made was, it's easy for the RD to request Thai banks to tweak their database to supply them certain information, in a similar way the banks in Australia do, and I gave an example. 

 

My point revolves around computer databases and money flow tallies for accounts, not the tax law itself. 

 

You posted... 

I am Australian.  In Australia, if you do not supply your bank with your individual Tax File Number (TFN) the bank withholds tax at the highest marginal rate on any interest earned.  Simple for the bank to implement.  A computer does it it all, and sends the money to the Australian Tax Office. (ATO).

At the request of the RD, what's stopping Thai banks doing the same, but not for interest earned, but for all remitted funds?

Which I think anybody would read as Banks withholding Tax on Remittances.

However, if your point is around Banks providing remittance data to TRD then that is exactly what I expect to happen & believe they'll use this data when deciding who to audit. 

24 minutes ago, KhunHeineken said:

Your post goes to compliance / enforcement, for which I have just started a new thread, but since it is currently waiting for approval, I will reply here. 

 

Here's an example for you. 

 

I am Australian.  In Australia, if you do not supply your bank with your individual Tax File Number (TFN) the bank withholds tax at the highest marginal rate on any interest earned.  Simple for the bank to implement.  A computer does it it all, and sends the money to the Australian Tax Office. (ATO).

 

At the request of the RD, what's stopping Thai banks doing the same, but not for interest earned, but for all remitted funds?  At the end of the tax reporting year, you either have to pay more tax, or are refunded by the RD, all based on the flow of money through your bank accounts that all have the same tax number attached to them? 

Interest is "Income" generated for you by the Bank & (Tax efficient accounts aside) is always taxable (even if you're not Tax Resident), so it makes sense for the Government to ask the banks to retain it.

Remittances are not always taxable & are dependant on you being Tax Resident so it makes sense for them to ask you to report it at the end of the Tax Year... 

3 hours ago, KhunHeineken said:

They may use SWIFT or IBAN etc to collect data from the Thai side.  Who knows? 

 

I'd be surprised if the Thai's left it up to the honesty of people to volunteer the amount of their remitted funds, but you could be right.  Even if people under reported their amount of remitted funds in 2025, that's still more money than the Thai government received in 2024.  It's just another earner for them. 

With the exception of Tax that is withheld at source (e.g. PAYE, Interest on Bank Accounts, Dividends etc...), I think most Tax is done on an "Honesty" basis and relies on people declaring the right level of "Income" under threat of being audited.

TRD have no automatic way of being able to delve into all of your financial affairs (They couldn't even point at my UK/SG Bank accounts as they have no way of accurately linking me to them) so the only way I can see them doing this is to set themselves criteria on what they're going to Audit & add in some Random Audits to keep people honest.

E.g. Take a pool of people remitting money into Thailand...

1. Remove everybody who has not spent 180 days in Thailand
2. *Remove everybody who has remitted less than 120,000 THB
3. Remove everybody who has an LTR visa that is exempt from tax on remittances

.... Then from this pool, audit everybody who has brought in > X THB & a random Z% of the rest (could be a sliding scale depending on how much money has been remitted).

*I would also add in a random Audit of people who were bringing in < 120,000 THB (maybe even higher) as I would be checking where they are getting the money from to live on (could be legit & their wives work so they don't need to bring in more than 120K) the threat of Audit would help deter people doing things like living off withdrawals from foreign ATM cards. 

8 minutes ago, LosLobo said:

Looks like I may have been set me up for failure with the two-week seasoning on the 800k and with the at least 15-day remainder required at all other offices if the original plan had failed as it seems it has now.

 

As it is now the window of opportunity has slipped after being here two weeks and I will need to get a 30-day extension from here and then go elsewhere next week.

Contact Maneerat in Pattaya, they did the conversion for 3 of my friends that made the move & it only took a few days, especially if you have a Bangkok Bank account already 

7 hours ago, Keeps said:

Off the topic a bit. I assume that you do not have too long left on your passport validity before renewal is required. No issues at any stage of the journey returning to Thailand regarding the expiration date eg less than 6 months etc?

Expires June 2025 but my extension is due end of September so if I don't renew it before then I'll only get 9.5 months instead of 12.

As I got the passport in Oct 2014 (Used to get up to 9 months extra if you renewed it early) I was warned at the check-in desk that I would need to renew it before Oct 2024 if I wanted to travel to the Europe as even though there would be 9 months left on it, passports >10 years old are not valid for entering Europe.

Wouldn't have been a problem flying MAN-AMS-BKK as you're not entering Europe (Don't pass through Border Control/Security in AMS) but you'd be relying on the check-in staff understanding that.

1 hour ago, DrJack54 said:

What you are posting from agent is rubbish.

A TM30 is not required. Law changed June 2020. 

 

You should be more concerned with how you plan to make your 90 day reports having used an agent. 

Most likely your stamps were issued up country. 

Though you're technically/"Legally" correct, each IO can implement their own policies & Jomtien/Sri Racha changed theirs in 2023 to require a TM30 dated after your last entry into Thailand for any immigration matters that you need to do with them... https://ground.news/article/chonburi-immigration-bureau-tightens-address-reporting

I don't know if this is still in effect or if you'll be fined were you to turn up with a TM30 dated before your last entry but that could be where the Agent is getting their information from. 

Have to confess that I got back from the UK last Tuesday & have no intention of doing a new TM30 before I renew my Passport next month so will see if they need one when I have my stamps transferred over & pay the fine if I need to, 

2 hours ago, LosLobo said:

Seems my banking efforts may have been in vain.

I went to Ranong Imm yesterday and spoke to another person there about what detail I need in my Visa conversion to Imm Non O visa application.

To my amazement they told me that Immigration law says that they are unable to convert my Visa Exempt to long stay.

Trip to Pattaya? - Approx. 25K to do the conversion... 

1 hour ago, JohnnyBD said:

Mike,

I'm married, tax resident and over 65. How much assessable income can I remit without having to file a tax return. Is it 60k, 120k or 220k or something else? I don't want to file a tax return this year. I plan to get a LTR visa later this year, but I don't want to go over the limit before I can get it. Thanks again.

The technically correct answer is 120K if filing a single Return, 220K if filing a joint return, you don't take your allowances into consideration when it comes to whether you should be filing a return or not, it's just the assessable income that counts.  

Practically I'm remitting up to my total tax free number (235K for me) and if asked to file a return I'll plead ignorance & pay the 2,000B fine out of the 5,000B they'd owe me from withheld tax on interest in my Thai Bank account.

14 hours ago, Dogmatix said:

 

That would be the case with a UK tax return reporting foreign income for global taxation. But current Thai tax returns done online compute the tax payable after deductions for you and foreign source income must be entered in the spaces provided under the various sections of the Revenue Code that the income arose. Thus pension income must be entered in the section for income from employment.  Once you have done that, the system will add it to the total of assessable income.  It is possible that new forms will be designed with lengthy sections dealing with foreign source income and spaces to apply for tax credits incorporating the nuances of all 61 DTAs. In this case they might ask taxpayers to enter gross pre-tax foreign source income without taxing the gross amount. But I think this is a fantasy and for now you should only declare assessable income.

I honestly think TRD are just looking for you to do all of the calculations & declare what Tax you believe you owe, that way they don't need to update their systems to add sections for different kinds of income &, more importantly, don't need to understand the nuances of how various incomes are taxed in different countries... They'll just apply basic Tax fundamentals & assess whether what you are telling them passes the "Sniff Test".

If it doesn't pass the "Sniff Test" they can audit you & check your calculations but again, I think they'll just be looking to see if what you're saying looks correct based on their local Tax knowledge & maybe a cursory knowledge of your countries tax, I don't believe they're going to become Tax Experts in all of the 61 countries that Thailand has DTA's with.

Using my hobbyhorse of CGT as an example, I don't believe TRD cares about what cost basis you used to do the calculation from they just want to see the remitted income/what percentage of it was gains and as long as if audited you can show how you did the calculations & justify using that method (e.g. as a Brit dealing in British Assets I can argue the case for using Average Cost but couldn't legitimately argue a case for LIFO unless I was dealing in US Assets) then I don't think you'll have a problem passing the "Sniff Test".

5 minutes ago, MistyBlue said:

 

This becomes a "Section 104 holding".  An example of how to work out the gain is given in HMRC helpsheet HS 284.  Need to use the PDF example 3 shown in this link:  https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/shares-and-capital-gains-tax-hs284-self-assessment-helpsheet 

I know that's the case for normal UK CGT calculations, but in the scenario where it's a Non-Dom remitting Gains into the UK from the US is it still the same calculation or could they avail themselves of the flexibility in the US rules to minimise the gain? 

Although this does not meet the criteria of the example above, I came across this example of remitting interest to the UK which shows how the UK treats "Income" that has already been taxed in the Foreign Country ((again I'm using the UK as it's the only country I know that taxes foreign income on a remittance basis)... 

Jenny is taxable on the remittance basis and is liable to UK tax at the rate of 40%. Interest of £9,000 is paid into her foreign bank account after deduction of tax in the ‘other’ country at the rate of 10% which is available as a credit against UK tax on that income. Jenny decides to remit £4,500 of this interest to the UK.

As Jenny has remitted half of the net amount of the interest she was paid, she’s able to claim half of the admissible foreign tax as a credit against UK tax on the income. Jenny must pay UK tax as follows:

Half the income has been remitted and so half the foreign tax is available as a credit against UK tax.

If Jenny does not claim FTCR but instead claims a deduction for the foreign tax paid, she is liable to UK tax on the amount remitted of £4,500 × 40% = £1,800

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/remittance-basis-hs264-self-assessment-helpsheet/remittance-basis-2021-hs264