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vinny41
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6 minutes ago, Logosone said:They did seem surprised that EU law had primacy and certainly to the extent that that was the case. Don't forget there were years of case law that actually established how far this went. It was one thing to read this in principle, but another for British courts to confirm that indeed EU law took precedence in certain areas.
Obviously there was no deception whatsoever, though, because if law professors could not anticipate the extent of primacy of EU law certainly Ted Heath would not have been able to. To explain the finer constitutional law points of EU law vs UK law would have gone right over the British electorate's head anyway. They would never have understood it. So no deception at all.
Why would the EU and Europeans be 'absolutely bricking it' though? Didn't you understand that the tariffs on UK goods would mean that the EU will take in almost exactly the same amount from the British which the British paid in while a member? Except this time there'll be no millions for infrastructure products in Wales to pay, no loss of business to British products which are now more expensive.
The EU is not in a weaker state without Britain. Quite the contrary. I actually hope more countries leave. If the really useless mouths to feed, like Greece, would leave would be even better. Romania and Poland can go too. Door is wide open.
The Millions for infrastructure products in Wales to pay was paid for by the British taxpayer, if you have forgotten the UK has always being a net contributor. As for EU tariffs the EU will pay more to the UK than the UK will pay to the EU
Its strange normal after a divorce most people reduce their spending as they don't require as much money as they did before the divorce Not the EU it wants to increase its spending and the EU is divided into 2 camps the net contributors who feel they are already paying enough and the cohesion countries which want the eu budget increased as they are net beneficiaries and take out more than they ever pay in. Poland seems to be doing very well as part of the net beneficiaries
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10 minutes ago, Logosone said:
At a conservative estimate....taking the 4.3% figure of the Confederation of British Industry...and ignoring the significantly higher tariffs for some sectors...
With a value of British exports into the EU of 289 billion GBP.....
That would mean 12 billion GBP of tariffs.
Conservative estimate.
Almost to the pound the exact contribution of the UK to EU budget.
Hahahahahahahahahaha.....
You have forgotten the UK imports from the EU were £357 billion
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2 hours ago, Logosone said:
In theory.
Back in reality no British government will ever want to upset the EU, given that the British financial sector will depend on continuous inspection and approval by the EU, and continuous renewal of equivalency.
The political reality is that the UK government won't do anything to curtail Romanian and Polish immigration. Indeed has done nothing to curtail it. Quite the contrary, it has opened all its doors to Romanians and Poles, and said 'come in without any need for visa whatsoever'.D
That's what is meant by political reality. You have no 'control'. You could not even control your own currency. The instruments available to the UK government are blunt, antiquated and insufficient for the challenges of today.
And to cap it all the UK runs a system of free handouts which means it has to go to Germany, Japan and the US cap in hand every single year to beg for the money to finance its welfare state and handouts.
The UK is so powerless and without control you and your fellow Brexiteers wouldn't be able to sleep at night if you knew the truth.
No need to worry about Romanian and Polish , i have friends in the Civil Service that have advised me that once the coranavirus is out of the way they are planning to visit Thailand and Australia on a fact finding mission
my understanding is they want to look at the Thai and Australia immigration system for launching something in the UK along the lines of "Dob an overstayer" I think they would use Jaguar cars instead of BMW 5 series as smart cars and they are considering providing extra funding to local councils for the hire of thermal imaging cameras and spy planes and helicopters
Local council used thermal imaging cameras and spy planes a couple of years ago for checking beds in sheds
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4 minutes ago, Logosone said:
Oh don't worry, we will put such tariffs on British products there will be a new surplus.
And the Uk will reply in Kind regarding Tariffs, Hopefully Mercedes-Benz has found a new market for their cars since China car sales are down, Donald may put 25% tariffs on European Cars going to the states
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2 hours ago, Logosone said:
Well you'd have to look at the context of the time, in the 1970s British manufacturing and industry began to fail and decline big time. The main reason the British decided to join was economic. They figured, correctly, that the advantages of a common market would be better for their economy.
That was the main consideration, not law, immigration...
But who knows, it's possible, especially if the East European immigration were highlighted, I don't think Germans loved this idea particularly. Whether it would be enough to lead to a full derailing of the EU membership at the time, well it clearly did with the Brexit referendum, but with a tiny margin. Maybe in the 70s people were not that xenophobic yet.
In any event, as the very serious economic problems of the UK will worsen as Brexit goes on I have no doubt whatsoever that a Labour government will eventually give the British people this choice once again and it is very possible the British will again decide to join Europe.
In the unlikely event that Labour get in to Goverment and after they have nationalise the following broadband, rail,water,electric, postal,service,energy network,private sector contracts,oil and gas companies and the rail network.
I am sure a Labour Goverment would want to join the EU as a net Beneficiaries, I am not sure the EU would want to accept membership from a country that might take out double the amount of funds that Poland currently receives
https://www.statista.com/chart/18794/net-contributors-to-eu-budget/
If Scotland gets its independence and joins before the rest of the UK that would be 2 new members that would be net Beneficiaries, Hopefully the net Contributors have got very deep pockets
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9 minutes ago, Logosone said:
Of course there won't be a status quo, rather the whole point of the negotiation!
But very clearly Barnier will continue to ask for European boats to fish in UK waters. So that will stay the same. Only the percentage of fish quotas will change.
So your much vaunted 'Barnier hints he will compromise on fish access' is a bit of a red herring, isn't it? He's not compromising on access to fish in principle, merely hinting he'd be prepared to look at the quotas. But not on the terms the UK wants, on his own terms.
No its not as the EU fishing countries are demanding status quo and no amendents to status quo , Barnier can look at quotas on his terms but it still needs the UK to agree to those quotas as well as the EU fishing countries
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5 minutes ago, Logosone said:
Yes and Sainsburys funded it with 3.9 million USD, I know, I know, you're never shopping at Sainsbury's AGAIN!
Anyway, what are Bloomberg saying in that article? That Barnier is holding off on granting the UK banks equivalency as to financial rules.
Would you agree that this is a somewhat more important issue to the UK, financial services, than fisheries?
The EU can revoke equivalence unilaterally at any time. So even if equivalence is granted for some services traded out of London, it could be short-lived. For financial services companies this means continuing uncertainty.
I don't think Boris will sacrifice fishing for financial services as he is aware he will be toast
Boris vs corbyn was a easy choice for the UK voters, Boris vs starmer/Nandy not sure how that would play out in an election
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5 minutes ago, Logosone said:
No he didn't.
I don't think you understood what was said.
Barnier merely said he would be prepared to negotiate the fish quota, he certainly will insist that European boats will continue to have access to UK waters. It's merely the terms he is prepared to negotiate, ie the percentages of catch for each fish. Not the principle of European access.
You really need to understand the sources you post.
Thanks I do understand the sources that I post I expect there will be a deal on fishing but on the basis of reduce quota or no deal no access
What there wouldn't be is the current status quo which is what the French and other Fishing EU countries are currently demanding
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2 minutes ago, Logosone said:
Yes, Barnier very much holds the cards. Boris may hold a small fishing card, but Barnier holds the equivalence of banking rules card. Which rather trumps the fishing card many times over.
https://www.bloombergquint.com/onweb/eu-s-barnier-warns-of-serious-divergences-as-u-k-talks-start
“This is serious, I say this is grave, because if the United Kingdom’s position does not move it will have an immediate and concrete effect on the level of ambition of our cooperation,” he said.
On fishing rights, Barnier said the UK’s proposal to negotiate the level of catches in British waters on an annual basis, similar to an agreement with Norway, was impractical. He noted that the EU and Norway negotiated over five species of fish while there were 100 shared stocks in European and British seas.
Barnier said the British government was further insisting that fisheries should be outside the main trade deal. “An economic agreement with the UK will have to include a balanced agreement on fisheries,” he insisted.
A UK government source described the EU’s negotiating ask as being “the status quo”. “
Does not sound like Barnier is about to compromise, lol.
Bloomberg didn't they fund the remain campaign for a cool £250,000
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1 minute ago, Rookiescot said:
So I suspect we will end up with a statue quo where EU fishermen retain access and the UK can sell fish to the EU.
Thats not what I remember being promised to UK fishermen was it?
Dont think so
The EU’s chief negotiator hinted that Brussels could be prepared to shift from its stance that European boats will have continued access to UK waters under the same conditions as now. The EU has made an agreement on fishing a condition of the trade agreement.
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3 minutes ago, Logosone said:
Article updated 12 hours ago:
Barnier warns of ‘serious divergences’ between EU, Britain after first round of trade talks
Doesn't sound like hes in any mood to compromise.
Here's why, he holds all the cards:
https://www.bloombergquint.com/onweb/eu-s-barnier-warns-of-serious-divergences-as-u-k-talks-start
No he doesn't as you remember Macron has stated that Boris holds the fishing card
The EU’s chief negotiator hinted that Brussels could be prepared to shift from its stance that European boats will have continued access to UK waters under the same conditions as now. The EU has made an agreement on fishing a condition of the trade agreement.
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7 minutes ago, Rookiescot said:
And its from the Express not the Guardian.
Yes that is correct the French want to retain the same access they currently have
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6 minutes ago, Logosone said:
Well that's exactly the point, if you go to WTO terms the British fishermen lose what they wanted the UK government to ensure: Free access to EU markets.
Selling fish to the EU will be more expensive, market share and profits would fall, the British fish industry, currently only kept alive by Europeans willing to buy their fish (the British don't) will die a miserable death.
Why do you think the UK is negotiating to retain free acess? Because it doesn't need it? Okay, you make your own fantasy world, must be fun.
Access to each other’s markets
The UK is seeking tariff-free access to the EU market and for the EU to have tariff free access to the UK market
no adds on, no side deals merged into the main trade agreement
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1 minute ago, Rookiescot said:
France has said we will not be selling our fish to the EU if there is no deal.
Two thirds of the fishing industry will disappear overnight.
A small price to pay for blue passports.
No France has said No deal if they don't get the same access to the UK fishing ground as they currently have
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1 minute ago, Rookiescot said:
But Barnier is an unelected EU bureaucrat and they cant be trusted. Brexiteers have assured us on many occasions we should not listen to them.
Well if that's the case we will move to WTO terms and no deal problem solved
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3 minutes ago, Logosone said:
Lol, oh quelle surprise, the EU will generously compromise and shift on the (wholly unimportant) fish issue if the EU gets something important in return.
Welcome to negotiation 101.
Michel Barnier seems to think its an important issue as he would like it settled by July 1st 2020
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20 minutes ago, Logosone said:
Lol, telll that to the British fish industry that sells every 2 out of 3 fish to the EU. Because the British don't buy what the British fishermen catch.
That is why the British fish industry has been pushing the UK government to firmly ensure they have free access to EU markets then, because the UK has no need to sell its fish to the EU?
Is that why 66% of all British fish is sold to the EU currently, because the UK has no need to sell their fish to the EU?
You have to marvel at the nonsense Brexiteers come up with, they really live in fatansyland.
Here a British fishing experts explains with British fishermen desperately need the EU:
Your fishing expert
Aaron Hatcher is a Senior Lecturer in Economics at the University of Portsmouth. His research interests focus on the sustainable management of natural resources, in particular capture fisheries
Michel Barnier provided update yesterday
And he has hinted today there is some movement from the original demand by the EU countries for Status Quo access to remain
The EU’s chief negotiator hinted that Brussels could be prepared to shift from its stance that European boats will have continued access to UK waters under the same conditions as now.
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The GMB Union has released this sobering assessment of a possible 8 regional airports that could face closure.
https://www.gmb.org.uk/news/8-region...flybe-collapse -
10 minutes ago, TheDark said:
Fishing industry accounts about 42% of England's economy. In fact, by the 1542 treaty of Tripoli, England's international debt is calculated by tonnes of mackarel.
Making one's own reality and presenting those as facts is actually quite fun.
Everything that I have posted can be backup and supported by links to media outlets can you do the same I don't think so
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16 minutes ago, TheDark said:
It's true. Absolutely no Europeans wish to downplay fishing markets negotiation stance as it's only meant for English consumption for the moment.
Make a huge fuzz of something unimportant and make the people think it's something what people would consider important.
Fishing is not an important industry. It has not been one for decades.
As fishing is simply a distraction by the current Tory government, it's also a clear indication, we are going to end up with no-deal situation.
The purest Brexit possible. Just like the financial sector millionaires always wanted.
Strange if Fishing is not important to the EU why would the EU fishing countries ask Michel Barnier to make it his number 1 priority and to seek an agreement by July 1st 2020.
Overall, French fishing boats generate 30% of their revenue from catches in British maritime territories, particularly rich in fish stocks.
And he has hinted today there is some movement from the original demand by the EU countries for Status Quo access to remain
The EU’s chief negotiator hinted that Brussels could be prepared to shift from its stance that European boats will have continued access to UK waters under the same conditions as now.
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10 minutes ago, TheDark said:
EU wishes to guarantee the best possible outcome from Brexit So the English should wish the same.
Englanders 2025 order of fish and chips, is going to be a surprise for many people.
While fish is a negotiating, tactics, it's hilarious people are still talking about fish and chips, while there are so many more important ideas to talk about.
I think there are many Europeans on this forum that wish to down play the Fishing negotiations just remember it was Macron that stated Boris holds 'fishing card'
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1 hour ago, TheDark said:
Sometime a post is so good, it deserves a smiley like and a reply.
This one was a stinger missile filled with glitter. Well done! ????
And we all know that the French could never be accused of exploitation of another countries resources or could it
France still robbing its 'former' African colonies
https://www.pambazuka.org/governance/france-still-robbing-its-former-african-colonies
France/Afrique : 14 African Countries Forced by France to Pay Colonial Tax For the Benefits of Slavery and Colonization
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1 hour ago, Logosone said:The UK will have no other option but to sell out its fishermen. Because the British are not buying the fish caught by British fishermen. The Europeans are.
Therefore for British fisheries to get access to the EU market, the EU has already made clear that Britain will have to grant access to British waters.
Either way the UK will sell out its fishermen. If it makes a deal with the EU and grants access to waters, in order to give its fishermen the right to sell fish in the EU, that's a betrayal.
If the UK will not make a deal and UK fishermen will lose the free access to EU markets for their fish, that will be an even bigger betrayal.
Here, as elsewhere, it is the EU, not the UK, that holds all the cards.
There is no need for the UK to sell their Fish to the EU as the UK currently imports more fish than the UK exports, 40 years ago you would find it diffcult to find a Fish and Chip shop in the UK selling mackerel, Now there are a large number of Fish and Chips shops in the UK selling Mackerel
If you believe that the EU holds all the cards Why is the EU wasting time and money negotiating the EU could simply state here the deal we are offering Take it or leave it
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5 minutes ago, david555 said:
My reply was only pointing out very clear that any move, get's a counter move from opposite party ….. from which ever side started ….
Yes and the EU opening position is they want the same access that they currently have even though the UK has left the EU Club.
IF the UK opening position for trade talks was We want same access that we currently have but without Freedom of Movement and without paying for a Subscription Fee I would expect the EU to say Non
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Britain tells the EU: we shall not sell out our fishermen
in World News
Posted
Sorry its you that is wrong the UK has always being a net net contributor since day 1
https://www.statista.com/chart/18794/net-contributors-to-eu-budget/