vinny41

29 minutes ago, Logosone said:

 

The UK is not free or independent. 

 

UK fishermen are already pleading with their government to ensure tariff free access to EU markets.

 

Who do you think pays for UK pensions? Do you seriously think UK tax is sufficient to pay UK pensions? Every year the UK has to go cap in hand to the capital markets and beg Japan, the US and Germany to give the UK money to pay its pensioners.

 

You think the UK is free and independent? Eighty percent of your economy is services. Given the size of your debt  you're basically indentured servants.

 

And along comes a Brexit government with election bribes in the Greek style saying 'please please re-elect us, here have the family silver, have it all'....ramping up the already massively indebted UK's debt by another 125 billion"£ and telling future generations of Britons 'You and your children can pay the bill for how we live now'.

 

 

 

 

you keep stating Who do you think pays for UK pensions? Do you seriously think UK tax is sufficient to pay UK pensions? Every year the UK has to go cap in hand to the capital markets and beg Japan, the US and Germany to give the UK money to pay its pensioners.

And you never provide a link to support your claim

46 minutes ago, Logosone said:

 

I'm afraid there is. You see the UK does not want the fish British fisherman catch. The British don't like Herring. That's why British fishermen sell 66% of all their fish in the EU.

 

As for freezing the Herring and selling it in other non-eu countries you may want to float this master plan with the British fisheries industry that is pushing the UK government to ensure tariff free access to EU markets. I'm sure they haven't thought of that. 

 

You could be the saviour of a whole industry.

There are other solutions at the moment fish is regarded as a luxury item in the uk fish and chips is £12 in a fish and chip shop

Currently fishermen are restricted by quota on the amount of fish they can catch

So offer them 2 choices 

1 Keep existing access for everyone i.e Status quo

2) Restricted access to UK fisherman only, increased their existing quotas , Marketing campaign launched in the UK Herring and other usual fish at 50% discount less than cod haddock to a degree they know they already have 17.4 million people that are will to buy herring if is means giving the EU the finger

https://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2018/mar/15/eat-herring-and-mackerel-to-support-uk-after-brexit-urges-charity

1 minute ago, Logosone said:

 

But when your neighbour renovates your holiday house in Wales you don't mind so much?

 

When your neighbour buys 66% of the fish you catch you're okay with that?

 

When your neighbour allows you to sell your services in his house you're okay with that? 

 

But you don't want to follow the rules everyone else follows and has agreed?

 

You think you know better? Well let's see how long you can re-mortgage your house and how long the creditors will stay quiet when you keep re-mortgaging your house?

But when your neighbour renovates your holiday house in Wales you don't mind so much? and where does the money come from it doesn't come from the neighbour it come from the holiday owner own pocket

and the neighbour isn't forced to buy fish if they want they can buy nothing 

1 minute ago, Logosone said:

It's not that they can.

 

They have to. They have no other choice. They will not sell 66% of their herring to New Zealand, Australia, Canada or Jamaica. They have no other choice but to sell it to the EU.

 

So if the UK does not play nice with the EU and agrees to abide by EU rules and laws, the EU will impose tariffs on British fish. And the British fishermen will just pay these tariffs, true, because they have no other choice.

 

This is not better than the status quo whereby the British could sell fish free of tariffs, without any problems whatsoever as full members of the EU.Incorr

And the fishermen will be one of many loser sectors that willl suffer from Brexit. Name me which sectors will benefit from Brexit? Which will benefit?

Incorrect There nothing stopping the UK fishermen selling their products to the UK, and if there a particular fish that the UK not keen on , nothing stopping someone buying them freezing them and selling them to non eu countries

Maybe they haven't heard of freezers in the EU

6 minutes ago, Logosone said:

 

When you look at the full debt burden, the UK was in number one spot:

 

"In 2011, household, financial, and business debts stood at 420% of GDP in the UK. As the world's most indebted country, spending and investment were held back after the recession, creating economic malaise"

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economy_of_the_United_Kingdom

Total household debt in Great Britain was £1.28 trillion in April 2016 to March 2018, of which £119 billion (9%) was financial debt and £1.16 trillion (91%) was property debt (mortgages and equity release).

https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/personalandhouseholdfinances/incomeandwealth/bulletins/householddebtingreatbritain/april2016tomarch2018

Simple Larger % of the UK population owned their own property compared to countries like Germany

4 minutes ago, sanemax said:

I do believe that the UK are about 27 th in the list of Countries with the most debt 

Debt to GDP Ratio by Country 2020

UK is 29th on the list

https://worldpopulationreview.com/countries/countries-by-national-debt/

11 minutes ago, nauseus said:

Only one possibility from the description. Germany. 

Coronavirus: Up to 70% of Germany could become infected - Merkel

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-51835856

Looks like Germany will need another batch of refugees

10 hours ago, Rookiescot said:

Best part is that the Irish will get to watch the English suffering a famine ????

Will you also laugh about the Irish and the Scots living in England as well as the 3.5 million Europeans or are you suggesting if they paint their foreheads red they might be spared

The trouble with being both anti-austerity and pro-EU

It is the simple fact that the European Union, at its heart and above all else, is a fundamentally pro-austerity institution.

https://www.redpepper.org.uk/the-trouble-with-being-both-anti-austerity-and-pro-eu/

13 minutes ago, Logosone said:

 

Boris may well be in office for a long time. Good for him. Not so good for the UK economy.

 

Inevitably the electorate is exhausted now from Brexit politics. However, after Boris has had his run, when it becomes clear that the UK economy is doing worse than whilst in the EU people will hand the Tories the bill for their broken promises. When it becomes clear that Brexit will not ring in a golden age of economic prosperity, but on the contrary a time of even greater economic decline and hardship you can't blame the British electorate for looking to Labour, who will campaign on a platform of re-joining the EU. Because they know half of the electorate wanted to be in Europe at the time of the last Brexit referendum, and  after years of economic decline there will be excellent chance the number of people who want to rejoin outnumber the Brexiters.

 

So Labour will offer the option to rejoin Europe and at some point, eventually, they will get in.

Before there any chance of the UK rejoining the EU , the UK will be subject to the EU Accession procedure

Do you have any idea of how many Billions of Euros the EU has wasted on Turkey accession to the EU over the past 30 years

Hopefully the EU members have got very deep pockets and willing to splash the cash as the UK will need Billions and Billions or Euros

Sir Keir said: "I don’t think there’s really any question of rejoining the EU

https://www.express.co.uk/news/politics/1241680/Keir-Starmer-Brexit-news-UK-EU-rejoin-Labour-leadership-contest-latest-news

51 minutes ago, Logosone said:

Oh it will.

 

Every party outstays its welcome, every successful Tory run has always come to an end. The electorate eventually grows tired and wants to give the other party a chance. 

 

With the economic problems that the Brexiters will face they will be totally overcome. The UK has the second largest oil sector, after Norway, in Europe. The oil sector accounts for 28% of total corporation tax in the UK. 

 

Oil supports 450,000 jobs in the UK. That's more than TWENTY times more than fishing.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oil_and_gas_industry_in_the_United_Kingdom

 

With the Americans having dumped cheap oil on the market for years now and the Saudis and Russians fighting for market share with low prices, the price of oil should stay low for a very long time.

 

The economic news can't get much worse for the UK basically.

 

And who will be in charge when the economic depression happens? The Tories. People have a memory. Theywill remember the good times when the UK was in the EU. The Labour party will realise campaigning on a join EU platform will be the ticket to get back into power. Everyone knows half the country wants back in.

 

It will get traction.

 

Before there any chance of the UK rejoining the EU , the UK will be subject to the EU Accession procedure

Do you have any idea of how many Billions of Euros the EU has wasted on Turkey accession to the EU over the past 30 years

Hopefully the EU members have got very deep pockets and willing to splash the cash as the UK will need Billions and Billions or Euros

Shell reveals it paid no UK corporate income tax in 2018

https://www.ft.com/content/933fe2b8-20ee-11ea-92da-f0c92e957a96

31 minutes ago, Logosone said:

Oh it will.

 

Every party outstays its welcome, every successful Tory run has always come to an end. The electorate eventually grows tired and wants to give the other party a chance. 

 

With the economic problems that the Brexiters will face they will be totally overcome. The UK has the second largest oil sector, after Norway, in Europe. The oil sector accounts for 28% of total corporation tax in the UK. 

 

Oil supports 450,000 jobs in the UK. That's more than TWENTY times more than fishing.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oil_and_gas_industry_in_the_United_Kingdom

 

With the Americans having dumped cheap oil on the market for years now and the Saudis and Russians fighting for market share with low prices, the price of oil should stay low for a very long time.

 

The economic news can't get much worse for the UK basically.

 

And who will be in charge when the economic depression happens? The Tories. People have a memory. Theywill remember the good times when the UK was in the EU. The Labour party will realise campaigning on a join EU platform will be the ticket to get back into power. Everyone knows half the country wants back in.

 

It will get traction.

 

You missed out the dates in your post

In corporate taxes in 2008-9, the largest since the mid-1980s, because of high oil and gas prices. This represented 28% of total corporation tax paid in the UK.^[15] It is expected that tax revenues from production will fall to £6.9 billion in 2009-10^[15] based on an oil price of $47 per barrel, providing 20% of total corporation taxes.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oil_and_gas_industry_in_the_United_Kingdom

10 minutes ago, Logosone said:

 

Jesus Christ, you don't get it do you?

 

Why have airline prices decreased so much in the past 25 years? One major factor is that opening national markets and creating an EU single aviation market spurred competition, providing more routes and more destinations to places in the EU and further afield.A good example is Dublin Airport, where the number of intra-EU routes went from 36 in 1992 to 127 in 2016.  New air transport agreements signed between the EU and its major aviation partners around the world have brought even more destinations and lower prices to the travelling public.

 

https://ec.europa.eu/transport/modes/air/25years-eu-aviation_en

 

The EU was a major factor contributing to the rise of budget airline travel with its open market.

 

Yes you may have worked in Germany before the EU but this does not change the fact that the EU made living and working in Europe for UK nationals massively more attractive and easier, and that the number increased due to open EU borders.

 

You may not consider using a UK based lawyer for your German business, but many German companies doing a merger would use a UK law firm, UK accountants etc. 

 

If somebody from the US wants to setup a fund and market it in Europe he may use a UK law firm.

Its you that doesn't get it  Yes everyone on this forum is aware that you are an European Union Fanboy and in your opinion the best thing since silced bread and it would be better if they get rid of the countries that you don't approve of let me see

Poland,Hungary,Greece,Portgual,Romania,Czech Republic,Slovakia,Bulgaria,Slovenia,Estonia,Croatia,Latvia

As for Flights this is from the UK CAA

The expansion of low-cost airlines has had less impact on overall air-traffic growth in Britain than many believe, according to a new report by the Civil Aviation Authority (CAA) released this week.

The report, entitled "No-frills carriers: Revolution or Evolution", calculates that growth in short-haul traffic between 1996 and 2006 averaged five per cent a year - no greater than in the years before the arrival of no-frills airlines.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/travel/737029/No-frills-airlines-praised-for-efficiency-and-cost.html

So I don't believe as you have stated that EU was a major factor contributing to the rise of budget airline travel

As far as I am aware UK nationals have been working and living in many different countries since the begining of travel via ships

So once again I don't think the EU made living and working in Europe for UK nationals massively more attractive and easier, and that the number increased due to open EU borders.

And I suspect a German company doing a merger with a UK company would use German Lawyers for the German part of the Business and Uk lawyers for the Uk side

27 minutes ago, Logosone said:

 

Yes, but you see the visitor number from the UK to Europe was also strongly influenced by the positive paper free travel environment which reduced costs, that was created by the EU.

 

Same with the number of UK workers in Europe. Do you seriously think as many would have settled in Europe if the EU had not made it so very very easy? 

 

And Europe is blessed with some of the most desirable, best weather, high quality tourist destinations in the world, the Balearics, the Spanish coast, Canaries, south of France, Paris, the Amalfi coast, obviously people stay there longer and in greater numbers. No matter what. They will keep coming to Europe. But will Europeans visit the UK as much now? I doubt it very much.

 

The trade deficit indicates that people in Europe make things that others want. They can be sold elsewhere much easier than financial services can be transferred, that depend on know-how, regulations and so on. Selling machines somewhere else is easier than becoming a lawyer for another jurisdiction, with different laws. So for Europe it is easy to sell goods elsewhere. Is it as easy for the UK to sell services in another jurisdiction, I doubt it very much.

 

Btw, whether the UK was a net recipient of monies or a net contributor of funds in relation to the EU is determined by the cost to the UK and the benefits to the UK. The benefits to the UK were tremendous, whilst the cost, the trade deficit, it would have had that trade deficit with anybody, because the UK doesn't make things anymore, only 20 per cent of the UK economy is manufacturing now. So even taking on board the trade figures you mention, you can not view the imports from the EU as a cost?!!! The UK WANTED those goods, it was obviously another benefit for the UK. The UK nationals WANTED to travel to the Balearics and enjoy a holiday, that was also a benefit, not a cost. I'd still see it as a net benefactor.

 

 

Visitor numbers to both the EU and the UK were strongly influenced more by low cost travel in the form of charter flights, low cost airlines, ferries and a small part visa free travel, Many millions of UK and European Nationals have travelled to Turkey for a many years , Turkey did offer some European countries visa free travel other countries such as Rep of Ireland and the UK you puchased visa on arrival for 5 euros or £10 Sterling no big deal.

As to living and working in Europe I lived and worked in West Germany long before the creation of the EU I can't tell you if my employer was required to do anything other than registering me for Geman tax. I do remember having to register my address with the local town council but that wasn't a major deal 10 mins.

I would never consider using a UK based lawyer for a legal matter in example Germany and I sure most people have the same attitude as me and vice versa for using a German lawyer for a legal matter in the UK.

12 hours ago, Logosone said:

No, I am looking at the full, true, picture, you are not. The typical net contributor figures are based on simplistic 'what did the EU pay us, what did we pay to the EU'. However, that's not the full reality.

 

The full reality is that the City of London thrived during the days of membership in the EU, substantially because of the very fact that UK domiciled companies could get passporting for their products and services in the EU.

 

Without the EU passporting rights many international banks, brokers, fund managers and the like would never have set up shop in the City. Of course it is not easy to quantify the exact figure, because some would have anyway, but many would not.

 

The same with tourism. Some people would have come anyway, others came because the Eu legalframework made travel very easy and cheaper.

 

Same with workers, some came to the UK because the EU made movement of people easy, others would have come anyway.

 

Whilst we can not quantify exactly these financial advantages the UK gained from EU membership, we certainly know they existed and would have pushed the UK easily into a net benefactor category.

 

As far as Tourism, this is not a wild guess without substance, it is an informed insight with considerable substance. London has seen record number of visitors while in the EU.

 

https://www.theguardian.com/travel/2016/may/20/london-record-visitor-numbers-2015-31-5-million

 

Now where did these tourists come from? By far, indeed a VERY VERY VAST MAJORITY, of those visitors come from EU countries, as you can see here (table on the right):

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tourism_in_the_United_Kingdom

 

Tourists from France and Germany alone are DOUBLE the number of US visitors. Of the top ten tourist countries, EIGHT are from the EU. Add the figures up.

 

Now, to argue that the cheaper and document free travel which the EU has promoted played no part in this is simply false.

 

On child benefit, I agree with you, Romanians should not be able to claim child benefit for children in Romania on the UK tax payer. It's perverse. However, it is the UK government paying this, allowing this and doing it. Take it up with the UK government. 

 

Regarding National Insurance, all I know is that I paid National Insurance, I have the card to prove it. What's more, I was NEVER repaid the NI contributions I paid in the UK, even though, thankfully, I don't live in that country anymore. So feel free to apply that sum to make good the money lost on payments for child benefits. 

 

Of course the VAST majority of workers in the UK from the EU are not 'posted' workers, but are people who go there on their own initiative.

 

Again, I fail to see any reason why you could be happy the UK has left the EU. EU membership was an overwhelming benefit to the UK.

 

 

 

I have to disagree with you that you are looking at the full picture as you are only looking in one direction , while I am sure that you are correct in that UK financial services benefited from passporting services  I am sure the same applies to EU companies and organizations that wanted to gain access to UK financial services.

The same applies to Tourism , your thinking is EU tourists only come to the UK and there isn't a single UK tourist anywhere in Europe but clearly this isn't the case

In 2018 the total number of visits by UK nationals to Europe was 57.3 million spending £29.6 billion pounds

In 2018 the total number of visits by EEC nationals to the UK was 27 million spending £11.3 billion pounds

So UK nationals spent £18.3 million more on Tourism in the EU compared to EU nationals

http://researchbriefings.files.parliament.uk/documents/SN06022/SN06022.pdf

Now if we look at trade

The EU, taken as a whole is the UK’s largest trading partner. In 2018, UK exports to the EU were £291 billion

while  UK imports from the EU were £357 billion 

The UK had an overall trade deficit of -£66 billion with the EU

Now when we come to UK nationals  living and working in the EU and UK nationals living in the EU paying tax, purchasing goods , paying vat it is estimated  there are in fact 1.8 million to 3.6 million British people living part-time or full-time in the EU27.

https://www.independent.co.uk/travel/british-citizens-europe-residents-eu-brexit-a8332986.html

Taking all of the above into account it is clear that the UK is and always has been since day 1 a Net Contributors to the EU budget and to the European member countries

5 minutes ago, sandyf said:

Jumping to conclusions appears to be a strong point.

Not really you failed to criticize the article you instead decided to make a comment against the poster says it all

17 minutes ago, sandyf said:

Obviously your lack of personal experience forces you to rely on some article.

Glad you appreciated the article

14 hours ago, Logosone said:

Mercedes Benz cars will always have appeal. That is why they are desired and bought the world over. Not only will they arrive with wheels, light and windows, but with innovations UK carmakers can only dream of.

 

You should try making such quality products that people actually want to buy. Maybe you wouldn't have such a gaping trade deficit then.

 

Instead of being servants only. Financial services from the UK will be at the mercy of EU authorities soon. Better learn how to make things again.

I do remember Germany care of Volkswagen produced "Dieselgate" as you say  making such a quality product that know one wants to buy Dieselcars throughout Europe falling sales , various cities if you over a certain emission level you are not allowed to drive those cars in those cities.

8 hours ago, Logosone said:

Absolutely, same with the Poles and Romanians.

 

The Romanians live quite similar to the Syrians. Neither they nor the Poles will leave the UK after 6 months.

 

But then, Boris knows that, but he needs the tourism from the EU. So he can't just tell Poles and Romanians they can't come.

 

Tourism Euros are more important, and sorely needed in the UK. Just like European buyers for the herring the British catch.

 

They're so lucky they have us.

Don't worry about the Poles and the Romanians overstaying , I understand that Dominic Cummings as part of his recruitment campaign has hired some British expats that have 1st hand knowledge of how the Thai immigration report a foreigner works

I think the Europeans should be more worried about those UK nationals that will be allowed to claim asylum in any EU country from January 1st 2021 as previously they have been blocked from doing so under EU rules.