Rasseru

Thanks, adjan jb, for your post.

In China starting from the 4th Century (AD), Taoists and Buddhists persecuted each other before the whole thing was resolved by mutual acceptation if not assimilation. I think that Buddhists were more often victims than perpetrators.

After reading your post, I tried to do a little research on this. All I could find were references to the persecution of Buddhists, on occasion, based on the fact that Buddhism was a foreign religion. I could not find any reference to persecutions by Buddhists, not just of the kind I am asking about (note the somewhat narrow focus of my question), but of any kind at all. If you could point me in the direction of any sources I might look to for more information, I would be grateful.

In Burma, churches are desacrated and Christians are forced to erect Buddha statues but this persecution is led by the junta not by the Buddhist clergy.

If the persecution is not by or sanctioned by the Buddhist clergy, then, as I understand you yourself recognize, it falls outside what I am asking about. Similarly, if it is not against former Buddhists who have converted to Christianity, it is outside the scope of my question (although still very much of interest to me).

I believe that in Buthan, a Buddhist country, all religions but Buddhism and Hinduism are totally forbidden. This is probably a form of persecution.

If true, that could indeed be a form of persecution, although perhaps depending on how it is implemented. Do you have any idea if it is driven or sanctioned by the Buddhist clergy?

On another thread I recently started here, called 'Buddhism by the Sword', I asked whether there have been any cases where people sought to spread belief in Buddhism through conquest and violence, in the way that Christians and Muslims have from time to time done with respect to their faiths. No one here (including me) knew of any.

I have now another question about Buddhism, similar in that it relates to violence and religious belief, but different in its focus.

Does anyone know whether there have been, historically, any cases where people were persecuted, in organized efforts led or sanctioned by Buddhist religious authorities, either for being Buddhists who held 'heretical' beliefs about Buddhism or for converting from Buddhism to another faith? For this purpose, I mean by persecution both torture and execution, but am open to hearing about cases, if any, that involve persecution of some other kind that I have not thought of.

As before, my question is prompted and informed by the knowledge that persecution of this kind has taken place a number of times in the histories of Christianity and Islam. In an attempt to learn a lesson from my earlier thread, I want to be clear both that I am neither seeking to bash Buddhism nor to invite anyone else to do so (having said which, I find it hard to imagine that anyone might think that I was seeking to do either) and that I am not looking to open the door to a discussion here of Christianity or Islam.

Applying yet another lesson from my last thread, I will mention that I have tried to research this question using Google and Wikipedia. I found cases of Buddhists on the painful end of persecution (actually, as I think about it, both ends are probably best thought of as painful), that is, persecuted for being Buddhists, but I could not find any where Buddhists were doing the persecuting.

. . . a lot of cream and sugar makes almost any coffee taste pretty good.

Who are you coffee snobs trying to kid?

I never put sugar or milk in my coffee. And that's why I'm a snob. . . . .

Hear Hear! Good coffee, like good whisky, should only ever be drunk unadulterated. Cream and sugar are viewed only as pollutants by the true coffee aficionado.

I am intrigued, but a little concerned. Has leaving sugar and milk out of your coffee made you a snob too?

Yes, it is quite an oasis in the hustle and bustle of the city, isn't it? I guess you owe at least me a tequila at the BBQ

/ Priceless

I got you much better than that. You are now in a position to get a free coffee at Libernard!

Going to Starbucks was the highlight of most our days in Medina (Saudi Arabia). Pretty boring town if you aren't there for the Haj.

And terribly frustrating if you are, once you realize you need to be in Mecca for the Haj.

Better continue your research on that Razza.

Medina and Mecca are the 2 sites where Haj Pilgrims carry out their Pilgrimage. They can do only Mecca if time and budget is limited but to do both Medina and Mecca it is considered to be far more worthy.

Darn that Wikipedia, which has only this bad information on taking a side trip to Medina:

Though it is not required as part of the Hajj, many pilgrims also travel to visit the city of Medina and the Mosque of the Prophet.

I look forward to enjoying your Wiki-correction!

If it's good coffee that you're after, I would recommend Libernard Café, next to PhotoBug on Chaiyaphum Rd.

I am now very deeply in your debt, sir. Based on your recommendation, I visited Libernard Café this morning. What a delightful place. Not only was my cappuccino superb, but I fell in love with the bamboo-ensconced outdoor seating area, thoroughly enjoyed the music and had a wonderful conversation with the owner.

Unfortunately, however, when I explained to her that I had learned of her establishment through your recommendation, I could recall only your TV name, which would have been no use in identifying you to her. I did tell her, though, that if a Swede came in and mentioned my name to her, the mystery would be solved. Again, many thanks.

Going to Starbucks was the highlight of most our days in Medina (Saudi Arabia). Pretty boring town if you aren't there for the Haj.

And terribly frustrating if you are, once you realize you need to be in Mecca for the Haj.

The Coffee Bus across from Rimping Supermarket they do a great Latte @ 35 Baht beats the <deleted> they sell at Starbucks for 85 Baht

Does not the Rimping Supermarket exist at more than one location? If so, to which are you referring?

I went by Miguel's today and had Wavos Rancharous and it was great!.

Don't let a certain Mr. Blinky Bill, famous as a stern guardian of correctness in spelling and grammar, catch you saying that.

Are you referring to how a spell this famous Mexican breakfast that I don't have a clue how to spell?

Bingo! That, plus the fact that it is a plural noun, calling for a plural form of the verb. Pretty sure what you had was uevos rancheros. Ranch eggs.

Yup, still on.

Excellent!

I hear Rasseru has offered to buy a round of tequila for all punters who are still there at midnight.....

I'm sorry, ma'am, to be the bearer of bad tidings, but I am afraid that you must either have liars for friends or be suffering from auditory hallucinations.

No posts on this thread for two days . . . is the party still on?

i love japanese food so i think Tsinami near Chiang Mai Phu Kam hotel is a nice one too

taste good and cheap

'Tsinami' is not possible as a Japanese word. Is it possible that the name of the place is 'Tsunami'?

I went by Miguel's today and had Wavos Rancharous and it was great!.

Don't let a certain Mr. Blinky Bill, famous as a stern guardian of correctness in spelling and grammar, catch you saying that.

So have you found the answer to your question yet ??

I think you know the answer is NONE.

Or is their something you know that we don't ?

No, actually, I have not found a definitive answer to my question yet and I do not 'know' that 'the answer is NONE'.

I have found, however, significant further support for my original belief that in the history of Buddhism there have been no cases where violence has been used for the purpose of spreading belief in Buddhism, or with that purpose as its justification.

The fact that neither I nor anyone else here knows of any such case does not, however, mean that there is no possibility at all that any such cases exist. I go forward from this point with a stronger confidence that history is as it seems to be from the evidence here, but I intend to keep my mind open to the slight chance that there is more to the story than that.

I also go forward with gratitude for the efforts that many here have made to address my question with as serious an intent as that with which I asked it. Thank you all.

And life goes on..... Anymore statistics to tell us something that we already know. The weather & envirnoment aint that great in the hot season when the fires are burning.... funny but they probably say that in the US & Oz & Europe when there's lot of bushfires around. Living's not good for you when it's like that.

Talk about preaching to the converted, still I guess some people like to amuse themselves somehow. Perhaps they've got nothing else to do?

Bingo...

Yes, and let us not forget it provides good fodder for those with even less to do.

Is the OP asking specifically about Theravada history?

No, I am asking about the full range of Buddhist history, including, but not limited to, Theravada history.

I think it would be pretty ridiculous for an army to turn up somewhere and say, "Convert to Buddhist pacifism and compassion or die!"

Yes, of course. But the fact that it would be ridiculous does not mean that it has never happened. Human beings have shown, time and time and time again, that they are quite capable of doing ridiculous things.

Anyone with the true dhamma in their hearts would be incabable of doing such a "ridiculous" thing.

I imagine you are correct, as a matter of definition, but I also imagine that you understand my question was not about, or at least not limited to, those with true dhamma in their hearts.

I think these Buddhist-bashing threads are becoming dull. I find it strange that non-Buddhists are so interested in the Buddhist part of the forum. If posters came to learn a bit more about Buddhism it would be fine, but they don't - they come to bash it.

I hope you understand that I, the OP, did not start this thread either to bash Buddhism or, equally importantly, to invite any other posters to do the same. Actually, come to think of it, while I have not reviewed the thread to check, I don't recall that many, if any, of the other posters have been bashing Buddhism on this thread.

I think it would be pretty ridiculous for an army to turn up somewhere and say, "Convert to Buddhist pacifism and compassion or die!"

Yes, of course. But the fact that it would be ridiculous does not mean that it has never happened. Human beings have shown, time and time and time again, that they are quite capable of doing ridiculous things.

Salif Keita, Youssou N'Dour, Talking Heads, Toumani Diabate, Milton Nascimento, Bjork, Prodigy, Scott Jacoby. Didn't see any of them listed anywhere -- maybe I missed one or two? -- but each and every one would put a smile on my face and make me go back for more.

This is "hot"?

I go away for twelve days, while I am away read about how incredibly hot it is in Chiangmai, come back today expecting something exceptional and interesting and find . . . this?

I am trying to find a reason to keep this thread open....

It's a faith-based thread, and so has no need for reason.

Or, how about this: because it is entertaining and fun?

I think that posting on TV with the expectation that you will receive gratitude and thanks is the road to madness.

It's either that, or where you arrive at the end of said trail.

Jefferson, great idea: start a new poll, Masturbation in Chiang Mai. Wow, Chuck!

...It might be less controversial. Did you ever w@ank at a wat? Are you a guy who chokes the chicken behind the food stall? Do you fly the kite at......

Better to choke the chicken behind the food stall than in the food stall. You never know where the conclusion may end up.

Do you spank the monkey at the zoo? Polish the rocket in public?

Back on the topic of religion, surely one -- that is, one among those of us in Chiangmai, that being the focus of this thread -- would prefer instead the laying on of hands and the receiving of godhead?

There are plenty of cases involving Buddhists and violence, even involving monks. . . . .

Yes, but, to repeat, my question is not about whether Buddhists have been involved in violence (which I knew), but whether they have used violence as part of an effort to spread acceptance of and belief in Buddhism among those who do not already accept and believe in it.

Don't really know of any cases where people were forced to convert to Buddhism, but the Soka Gakkai/Nichiren mob were pretty famous, many years ago, for their attempts to force conversion to their sect. All other Buddhisms were wrong according to some of them.

Did they use violence against others to that end?