Maizefarmer

Correct - he only got it "stamped & entered" once he had settled back down into civvy life and had his feet on the ground - during which time he lived off and was sponosered by Thai's who had supported him while he was a monk, and who helped him financially get the street kid shelter up and running.

This was in 1996-7, so he got his PR around 1989-90, and had been here since 1976.

Tim

Yes - they are more "easy going" towards PR's when it comes to processing work permitts for us/them - whether thats formal or not I dont know, but after a few years you'll find things tend move forward smoothly and as a matter of default.

They are sick of seeing my face now for the last 20 years - its become a standing joke to tease me every time to get Thai citizenship or get out.

When I became a monk (which I did for 18 months many many years ago), the old guy who handles my renewal everytime was most confused as he had got my work permitt renewal down to a fine art. He was pleased I had taken up the monkhood, but wasn't quite sure what to do. He really didn't want the hassle, so asked me rhetorically (against all good Bhuddist rules), " you're not going to be doing this for long are you??". I assured him not. He processed my WP as if nothing had changed, and the following year I was back in civvie clothes.

I know of 2 guys (and there may be more...) who are PR's on the strength of been long time monks. One left the monkhood about 7 years after getting PR (by which time he had been a monk for nearly 20 years). He retained his PR status and when he went to get a work permitt, was asked what he intended to do. He didn't know, and was quite worried that he would find himself in a corner i.e. not qualified to do anything that would entitle him to a work permitt. He was told that as he was a PR - and that that wouyld not be taken away from him (its a serious doc that - once you have it, you have it for life - unless you really step out of line big time - even if its criminal it would have to be something quite serious for you to have your residancy status revoked - he could do whatever he wanted, it would be approved.

Ultimately he started an orphanage for street children, but I havent a clue what was written in his blue book.

Moral of story - anything is possible - just tow the line.

Tim

sorry camerata, but I dont quite follow you (in the context of work permits for PR holders)... all employers who employ foreigners are required/responsible to be familiar with the work permit laws and the parameters of the prohibited professions etc. (whether each complies or not is a different question

I think that is the whole point. As we can see with traffic regulations, when there is no effective means of enforcement the result is large-scale non-compliance. But I wasn't thinking only of the relatively few prohibited occupations. The Ministry of Labour wants to have an easy method of controlling if and when any foreigner is allowed to compete with a Thai for any job at all, because the need for certain skills changes over the years.

I've heard that it's easier for PR holders to get a new work permit. I don't think this means less paperwork. I think it means they are less likely to turn us down because "a Thai can do the job." This seems to be at the whim of the officer dealing with the application. I've had one work permit rejected for this reason and another two approved only after some negotiation and changing the job title into something concerning use of the English language. I would hope they aren't so finicky with PR holders.

Sunbelt Asia used to have a page implying that some requirements could be waived for PR holders, but I can't find it now.

Okay Chownah - this is the sort of info that starts to put the subject into a practical context and enable a realistic assesement to be made.

So we are realisticaly looking at around 660 litres to 825litres - lets take mean of 740 litres per hectare - which will = about 114 litre per rai per year.

I can't see this (as a crop) making sense. Those figures are yearly figures - correct/incorrect?.

That gives the land a value of Baht 19287 per year , just over a Baht 1600 p/month - about a tank full of diesel per rai per month.

And what makes that worse is that it is a gross figure - before labour costs, before processing costs, before land costs , before irrigation costs - before any cost!!

Against the price of what diesel costs in Thailand, this crop as a bio-fuel just does not seem to add up - sure in Europe or the USA, but not here.

It would need to be intensively grown, it would need to be mechanically harvested and the production costs would need to be so low I dont know if it would actually be possible.

As an eco- friendly fuel, and clean of the politics and war that go with petroluem nowadays - yes ++++ - and like it or not we may just be in that position one day.

I think I'd want to see a gross figure of around Baht 6000 - 7000 per/month (per rai) with costs that are no more than 50% - 65% of what a litre of petro-diesel costs, before it would start making long term sense - untill then....... back to the used cooking oil idea,

Tim

SUNBELT ASIA - can I bore you to run through the basics of getting a "work permitt as a consultant" i.e. whats required 1 employee min salary, thats understood, but what other requirements does the farang have to satisfy e.g. office, investement ect ect.....or was you reply only applicable aginst the ocntext of the question that was been asked by the forum member.

Cheers

Tim

- I know at least one person who I could send your way for business if I have underrstood that correctly.

..... and do you know what the current status is regards Treaty of Amitese with the USA - I heard that it is likely to be dropped in the near future - if it is, how will it impact on businesses that were setup in the past under the priveldges and terms that it granted USA citizens at the time?

Personally I wouldn't know one variety from the other. Yes, quite often those you find at market tend to be small, hard and not as sweet as they should or could be. Maybe that has something to do with the variety, or maybe it has something do with them been picked to early (or late?).

The 2 trees I have - and I have no idea what variety they are - produce a fruit that is about 9cm diameter and about 12cm long. Leave them on the tree long enough and they fall off and rot on the ground. I try to get them picked (piece of hooked wire tied to the end of a long stick with a plastic bag underneath) when they start turning from green to bluish/purple colour. At this stage they are really soft and sweet - can peel them by hand - great mixed up with a little olive oil, salt and pepper - on toast or in a salad.

They are grown commercially in the Chang Mai and Chang Rai region, but I have never seen them grown commercially round here here (Loei). Teco Lotus has them, but like the market ones, small and hard.

Tim

Sure - they'll grow very well, I have 2 trees and don't give them any attention at all. They provide all the avocados the family can/could eat most of the year - except in the middle of winter when they stop producing pods.

No fertilser, no bug sprays - just water in the sry season. But remember what I said earlier - there is a differance between growing a few trees of any fruit for yourself, and commercialising fruit growing. If for your own consumption, keep it simple else it quickly becomes a case of spending more than what youd spend buying the fruit in the shop.

Buddhafly - you name it - chances are it wilkl grow well in this climate.

Tim

Logpoacher

No - not to argue - trying to help you find a solution. Yes, I see your point, you are trying to find a solution based on a particular set of circumstances - and that I think is where/why you feel restricted.

What I was trying to convey, was leave out the issue of 3mill Baht investment, leave out the issue of age, wife ect ect ect...... if you get a Non Imm Visa (and get the right one) and go about replacing it/renewing it correctly, as things stand at the moment, you can effectively stay in Thailand endlesly (other than for having to leave to get it renewed).

That was what I saying when I said if you can't find one or other visa that you can use to stay then you shouldn't really be here all be it, it may not be the correct visa for your cirucmstances, and in that respect yes, I can see what the problem is for you, but none-the-less, it will enable you to stay - and at the end of the day I don't think anyone cares what the visa they're here on - they're here on a visa and thats all that counts to most guys (especicially those that have lived on 30 day stamps).

Overall though - the whole system needs to be revamped and it doe shave "gaps". One thing wrong (amongst others): it assumes you have to be over 50 to be rich enough to retire - ??? - if you can afford to ritre at 30 and can demonstrate that financially, then why not let people get a retirement visa at 30 or 40??

Tim

No, not a fish & chip society, but we do use a lot of cooking oil in this country - every roadside resturant will have a plastic container with cooking oil for frying, and every mobile food stall has a plastic container with cooking oil.

I have a main route bus stop at the end of my drive - everymorning there are at least 10 - 15 food carts parked up. Come mid-day and they push off till evening, they just throw out onto the ground all the used cooking oil - I guess 10-20 litres a day. Had the idea that if I put a container there (all in the interest of keeping the land clean) I could collect a good 50 + litres a week.

Night market - send my gofer around there each evening, at least another 100 food stalls and they all throw out used cooking oil every day - it goes into drains. Give them all a plastic container and offer them Baht 5 for every litre of used cooking oil they put into it for me. I gues that would be worth 50 litres per day quite easily.

That would be around 300-400 litres per week with very little cost involved in collecting it as it is all within a couple km's from me.

Quickly starts to add up up Udon.

Tim, re used cooking oil.

I've never regarded Thailand as a "fish and chip" society and an easy source of used cooking oil.

Apart from the food chains (MacD and Burger King) in the bigger cities, what other sources are out there?

ie: Deep fried foods.

cheers

udon

Point taken - I didn't have the 30 day stamp in mind - I was viewing this from a Non-Immigrant Visa perspective - which I understood (from this froum) you could just keep renewing/reapplying for - effectively allowing you to stay on endlessly (assuming you got the right one and went about the replacement process correctly).

Again - correct me if I am wrong - I havent had to worry about a visa for nearly 2 decades having been a PR since 1992.

Tim

Question for Sunbelt or anyone else with direct, personal experience:

First, many thanks to Sunbelt for the info given so far.

My question is: at what stage in the application process do immigration reject your request? Is it immediately on your first visit or is it after the 30 days consideration? I have had three, one year extensions based on a 3M baht, secondhand condo. Soon, I will have to go and apply for another year. If they accept the application and take my 1900 baht, does this mean I will be OK, or could I still be rejected after 30 days?

Any ideas?

You could be rejected after 30 days but as Firefan pointed out, if you get past the gatekeeper accepting the applications, you are in good shape.

If our lawyer is arguing hard on your behalf why you should be grandfather in and they accept it, its 70% chance of being approved after it goes to the committee. If no persuasion is needed its more like 100% success rate.

www.sunbeltasiagroup.com

www.sunbeltasiagroup.com

Desmond - I think the guy is a newbie, he hasn't been here long (correct me if wrong).

Nope - you won't have a problem. You have to do quite abit running around when going through the process of getting a work permitt, and at the start you will have to still do visa runs - so your situation is quite normal. Their is a writeup somewhere on the visa/workpermitt threads that describes quite well exactly what happens before it all falls into place and you no longer have to keep running from one office to the next. I suggest you read it, because it is critical you get your timing right and do not miss any f the steps - else you find yourself back in square one having to repeat everything right from the start.

Its frustrating, its annoying - its the way it works, but so long as al your paperwork is in order and you are a genuine applicant (i.e. not trying to fiddle the system - which is why all these changes are taking place - you will not have a problem.

But why are you going out by train?

Tim

RDC - have you ever deal't with them. I've ordered stuff from them and had it the next day - it was on a truck same day and deleivered the next - and then they phoned to check I had got it and was happy with everything. Good service and reliable. Really nice folk.

Tim

As someone else said - if you have 3mill plus to invest in a condo or whatever in Thailand - you are not likely to be worried about your viusa status (i.e. there are so many different types of visas that can be applied for, that if you are stuck in a situation in which you are not able to successfully apply for one or the other then really the question should be, should you be here?).

Tim

- I like your sense of humour - well said mate

Tim

GBP 1,000 to any immigration officer at Heathrow who says:

"Oh dear, sir, I'm afraid that's a tourist visa. You need a 'Fleeing from a military coup and prosecution for corruption visa'. Don't worry, it's quite easy to obtain, you just have to apply in person at the British Embassy in Bangkok. Have a nice day."

Thaising

If you had said that 10 years ago, yes I would have conceeded very likely - but not now. My brother works in the FO in a small section that deals specifically with "wayward dictators .... sorry prime ministers and presidents" who turn up unexpectadly bag in hand at Heathrow and having spoken to him, I can assure you - Mr T is not and never has been flavour of the month in London - if there is any outstanding financial, human rights or abuse of office claim aginst him back here, he'll be sent bag in hand back (that is if he doesn't move on of his own accord).

Sure, there are alot who you simply can't send back to their former domains because they 'll have their heads chopped off, guilty or not, but Thailand is not seen by the FO as one of those places.

They sent Pinochet back to Santiago - and if ever there was an FO friend who was owed a favour (re: his still little known behind the scenes "help" to the UK in the Falklands war), it was Pinochet.

Tim

Have you seen his pad in Kensimgton - I wouldn't be in a rush to leave that either - but leave he will, because rich or not rich, a) he is on a visa - like all other Thai visitors and he has never been been the FO's favourite South East Asian leader - and they will not let him stay if he is charged with a financial crime.

Also, he was a huge abuser of human rights - importing large quantities of telephone tapping equipment from Isreal - it shocked even those employeed to moniter conversations just how much he stuck his nose into others business. Even those who worked on the Constitutional Court concluded that they could not do anyhting with the mandate they had given the country - they couldnt "sneeze" without Thaksin's office knowing.

Like King Canute who stood on the shore and tried to command the tide to go away, the tide of public dissapproval has caught up with him.....and not a moment too late.

Tim

At last - I was wondering how long it would take for someone to pickup on that - yes you're right - that articles figures are well messed up.

Where do you think they are wrong - total produced, total per kg of seed .......? (and just what are accuarte figures/).

From post #36:

http://www.checkbiotech.org/blocks/dsp_doc...fm?doc_id=10129

“In the tests in the Northeast, the average total revenue per hectare for farmers was around 67,000 baht from growing 416 kg a year - 12,727 kg, or two million baht in 30 years. Estimated biodiesel production per hectare was about 3,000 litres over the same 30 years”

To me this means that 3,000 litres are produced in 30 years on one hectare so 3,000/30=100 litres are produced per hectare per year so 100/6.25=16 litres per rai per year. 16 LITRES PER RAI PER YEAR?

Also, this means the 67,000 baht was received for selling 416 kg of product so 67,000/416=161 baht per kg of product....what product are they making that is worth 161 baht per kg?....it seems to me that this is for the seed because 416 kg of seed would produce about 100 litres of oil per hectare which matches my calculations above.

If the seed is valued at 161 baht per kg and it takes 4 kg of seed to make one kg of oil then 161 x 4=644 baht per litre is the cost for the material to make one litre of oil????????

Also, in the article it says:

"D1 says it can refine up to five million litres of Jatropha oil per year from plantations totalling 31,205 rai. It takes four kilogrammes of Jatropha seeds to refine into one litre of oil. "

This means that 5,000,000/31,205=160 litres of oil can be produced on one rai in one year.....which is ten times what I calculated from their other data.

I think that there is some problem with their numbers or else there is some problem with my analysis....please check my analysis and let me know if I've made a mistake.

Chownah

TT - thanks.

Yes, the byproduct does have some value as a potentil feedstock (subject to additional processing) - in the overall scheme of things I wouldn't though see it as a significant benefit.

The figures you give though interest me - and this is what I am trying to get sorted out. Lots of guys have come back with different figures, and granted, for different parts of the world Jatropha will give different volumes of product - but for Thailand, the best set of figures I can up with are 416kg per hectare per year - which equates to roughly 1600kg of harvested seedpod. Now thats specifically for North East Thailand. It may well be diffferent in other parts pf the world - subject to climate, soil type, irrigation ect ect......

But other forum members have come back with different figures: you have come across figures which suggest 50% oil extraction (i.e. 1ton of seepod = 500kg biodiesel/oil) and others have come back with figures of around 1800litres per year per hectare.

I am trying to find out which figures are correct - becaue at 416kg oil/biodiesel per year per hectare it simply isn't worth it - do the math and convert to rai - my lands worth a lot more than a half tank of diesel per year per rai (which is roughly what 416kg per hectare per year equates to). But 1800kg of bio diesel per year per hectare - well, that is a very different story. Per rai that equates to around 277kg biodiesel per year.

But missing from all this (irrispective of which figures are accurate for the tests condcuted to date in North east Thailand), is just what did it cost to produce those volumes of biodiesel, and what is the saving versus petro-diesel?

Then we can see just what this process is worth - if indeed its worth doing at all against a Thai diesel price of Baht27.

I am inclined to think that the best way of going about producing biodiesel is to have a chat with your local resturants - check out the math for converting old coking oil - worst case scenario I could calculate is that you would save 75% over the cost of petro-diesel at the pump, and typically speaking aoru8nd 85%!!!!!

I have PM'd Poorfarmer - he seems to know exactly what the issues/cost/margins are as far as Thailand is concerned.

Tim

1 hectare (about 6-7rai) will give you about 400kg of biodiesel per year or about 6-7 tankfuls for the average pickup (and that is with everything working just right based on around 4kg of seed to 1kg of biodiesel).

Tim

Adding the residue in with the cattle feed, as a high protien source, would add to the economics of it.

Regards

Just found this:

In all methods of extracting the oil, about 50% of the weight of the seeds remain as a press cake, containing mainly protein and carbohydrates. Investigations have shown that this residue contains toxic compounds and cannot be used as animal feed without further processing.

Harvest numbers are showing from 1 to 6 tons per hectare, so at the top-end would that be 3 tons of oil??

Regards

Poorfarmer - share some realistic figures with us based on your experiance and research.

My problem with this is the theory versus the practise - and in farnming you quickly learn there is a big differance to what the articals say and what you actually land up doing to achivee the results.

Lannerbirth is growing some trees in the Chang Mai/Rai region - and the first thing he says is that he is not convinced that the costs of production are much less than what diesel costs to buy at a pertrol/gas station.

That is my concern - however I look at the figures, the indication is that there is little to no benefit or saving - against the background of diesel costs in Thailand - unless some of the figures given in postsings are correct, suggesting 1800 odd litres per hectare per year!

1) how much biodiesel can be realisticaly produced from 1rai or 1hectare of Jatropha crop per year in Thailand.

2) What would the production costs be to produce whatever that quanity is? (ignore the cost of planting)?

3) what saving would 1 rai and 1 hectare give you over buying commercial petro-diesel?

4) and lastly, if 1 rai or 1 hectare does not make econmic sense, how many rai or hectare do you need to grow before it makes economic sense to produce?

Thanks Tim

Jatropha Curcas......"Saboo Dam"

Yes on my research with friends at Kasetsart University ,Kampengsean campus. We run biodiesel from Jatropha Curcas in a small refinery. And more than 2000 rai plantation of this plant on site experimenting at Kampensean. If u wanna know technology of separation and washing of biodesel under Thai energy standards(base on USA std.) Can contract biodiesel centre at ku. kampengsean campus.

In issan area, the soil type is sandylome and less in soil fertilzer, then palm oil is ok for growing there but the moisture content is unsuitable. The yield of oil v. from this plant in isaan area less than growing at east or south.

From..thaiverypoorfarmer

Another interesting artical - sure, this stuff is no rocket science to make, and buying a kit for $2000 (as advertised earlier on a posting) is not needed.

Am trying to put it all into perspective against the cost of Thai diesel - currently at around Baht27 - this may well be something I'm prepeared to commission one of the forum members from K Uni in Bkk to take a look into, because as a farm fuel - enourmous potential.

I need clarification regards volume of biofuel produceable per rai per month/year - there are wildly different figures on the nett - which are true/accuarte and realistic.

Tim

Sorry - missed that.

Research varies but Jathropha gets about one/third the production of oil palm in most studies athough in the NE may do better because of the problems with growing Oil Palm. Can always do better just a matter of time, money and efford.

What are the problems with growing palm oil in the NE??

Wow - and the source of those figures? - because they contrast rather sharply with other figures and suggest a much high production rate than what I was reading from certain reports.

Also, it would appear that there are other crops that produce much more - but of course the question is (and that is not defined with the above figures) is what are the "inputs" to achieve those quantities - may well find the nett return is lower.

Some one needs to clarify all this for us - which is the best crop to use, what will it produce, what will it cost to produce.

On one of the videos I looked at (that were attached to an earlier posting) the cost per gallon in the USA was about 70cents to produce biodiesel - versus about $1.99 p/gallon to buy petro-desiel at the pump - that of course was using old vegatable oil from resturants. No reason why the same can't be done in Thailand - and we use a ton of the stuff in Thailand to cook with - which usually gets poured down the drain!

Tim

For people in Thailand it is a lot easier.

Just use coconut oil, pour it in your tank and you're ready.

No messing with ethanol/methanol.

Coconut oil will keep fluid with temperaturs like in Thailand, and it is the best of the best biodiesel you can get.

Do a search on coconut biodiesel and phillipines. A guy there has a business already for a few years in coconut biodiesel.

Just what are the legal issues in Thailand regards production of biodiesel - can I just start making the stuff, or are there a set of admin/legal hurdles I have to jump through.

If I did - it would only be for my own use. Keep my mouth shut and just get on it with it (???)

Anyone know what's up from a legal perspective?

Tim

right on.

are there any ways of keeping bugs away without chemeicals?

Depends what the bug is and there are a huge range in Thailand - there are all sorts of non-chemical methods, but I am not a organic farmer so I am not your man - but whatever you do - keep it simple. Speak to Chownah - he's your organic buff.

Contact:

GISS Marketing

1/11-13 Sutthisan Winitchai Road

Huay Kwang

10310

TeL: 02-2777597

www.giss.co.th

- they sell everything a farmer could want.

Their dairy equipment and dairy cattle range of equipment is also good - click on "products" and then select each page to see what they have - about 100 pages of pics/products althogether.... and they speak english. Good bunch of folk.

Tim

pitchforks at 10 paces

Speaking of pitchforks....has anyone seen any for sale in Thailand? I collect alot of rice straw every year and a good pitchfork would be a big help to me. I haven't seen any for sale anywhere. I made one of my own devising which turned out to be moderately useless. If someone throws one at me can I keep it?

Chownah