Damual Travesty

6 minutes ago, stevenl said:

USA wants others to join after first making very clear it is America first. Doesn't rhyme.

 

But your post did make me curious, how can it be argued that colonialism is a step towards capitalism? Unless you're talking exploiting others for your own gains?

All Governments put their own people first - that is what the phrase means. It does not mean anything else.

Regarding history. Not interested in talking further on the subject. Exploiting, exploiters, these terms ignore that there has always been and always will be someone in power somewhere who makes a deal with someone. After the fact its easy to look back and talk about exploitation. Someone sold a slave to a buyer, someone sells land, someone sells resources, etc etc etc. Someone invites a military in to defend their own interests. Selfishness is something very human no getting away from it - so it seems.

16 minutes ago, In the jungle said:

A good piece in today's Guardian about Pompeo's attempt to build a multilateral response to China's malign actions:

 

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2020/jul/24/us-china-mike-pompeo-america-first

 

 

Jingoism and unilateralism? The writers confuse the Neo conservatives with the idea of withdrawal from unnecessary foreign entanglement. The Guardian is simply a leftest Anti-American newspaper and always has been. America first means that the United States wants to put itself first before worrying about other nations, this is what all nations do when they are being Governed properly. It means the security of your own people and their welfare come first. It does not have anything with wanting to control the entire world, or Jingoism. Something that the Trump administration has definitely NOT been engaged in. Trump is being faulted for NOT wishing to be overly engaged in the middle east or Europe. What is the purpose of NATO? Can you sum it up in one sentence? NATO can't. It was the Clinton administration and Europeans that wanted US bombing in the Baltic's was that part of the mutual defence of the USA and Europe? Bush and his neoconservative ideas of creating democracy in Iraq, Obama in Libya, these are not Trump. Trump is about reacting to a shifting world. The threat to the USA is not Putin. Europeans can handle the Russians can they not? China is the threat the USA faces and other Nations can judge for themselves if they view China as a threat - but Trump Jingoism? Absurd - written by people who do not even know what it is they are writing about.  No one should be in an alliance with the USA unless they want to be in one. Those that seem unhappy about being in one with the USA should get out.  A good thing for all. Time for new alliances to be formed. As I said earlier not a time for ambiguity.

31 minutes ago, warcy said:

Really? China is doing exactly the same thing that USA and Britain was doing decades ago. Did you call USA a rogue state then?

 

 

No. What specifically are you arguing about here, history, or a current geo-political threat caused by a Nation that is threatening virtually all nations surrounding the South China sea, Taiwan, and even Japan. This is not a topic about decades past, and I am not sure what decades you are talking about. The USA was never a Colonial power, and even if it was, Colonialism can be argued to be a step toward the Capitalism today. Filled with ills and woes, as was early capitalism, and even capitalism today. But this is a conversation about a current situation which is real and happening right now. An argument that pretends to find comparison to a totalitarian Government of China and the development of democracies in the West, etc seems really out of place here as it does not address the issue of the threat being posed by China. If you wish to argue that there is no threat being posed by China then please do so, but history is not adding to the argument at all unless you are pointing to specifics of Chinese behaviour.

7 hours ago, FritsSikkink said:

I think you mean the USA.

Give your examples please. Stay current.

17 hours ago, ThaiFelix said:

Oh so it was the US who defeated Nazi Germany??  I suppose the rest of the allies, for years before the US joined in, were on kitchen duty??  Is this New World History 101?

Of course not, but perhaps you could concede that the USA aided a little bit in that effort?

8 hours ago, melvinmelvin said:

sounds like quality US thinking,

surely life and security and safety in the US would improve vastly if VietNam were to be treated that way,

not to mention Laos

 

ain't no one smarter than those in Langley and in the pale house

 

A rather strange quote here. Vietnam is under direct Chinese threat regarding loss of territorial waters, and fishing rights due to Chinese incursion - while Laos is a very poor country dependent upon China. What point are you making? Simply asking for clarification as to your meaning.

8 hours ago, melvinmelvin said:

you are probably right about China and being around, not sure that the 11th will last that long though

 

but when the trumpers leave Penn Ave, will that improve US doings re the rest of the world?

I see no reason to think so, armed  conflict is pure nourishment for US, not good

 

"Armed conflict is pure nourishment for US" may I remind you that China is threatening its neighbours in the South China sea, making territorial claims that threaten the livelihoods of  these nations, and is threatening free flow of global trade in the region, has built military installations in disputed territory. A concerted response is warranted. If war comes that will be China's choice.

9 hours ago, joecoolfrog said:

Absolutely but it has not changed one iota from 12 months ago , at which time Trump was telling the whole world what a good chap the Chinese premier was.

In addition the White House now wants NATO and other allies to form a cosy alliance , this after dissing them for 3 years !

You might find that when the US has a president who isn't so blatantly self serving , other nations will support him.

This American is for the end of the NATO alliance. I favour ending all alliances, and allowing nations who would seek a new alliance with the United States of America - to simply say so. NATO is a bloated mess of Nations some of whom are NOT friendly to the USA and therefore the USA has no business being in alliance with them. They know who they are. Asia likewise. This is not a time for ambiguousness. Other Nations supporting the USA? This is not about the USA begging for defence, nor is it about the USA attempting to force alliances. This is about a rising threat. A Nation, any nation, chooses to analyse that threat and make the appropriate moves for it's defence. Every Nation needs to assess it's own risk and make the appropriate measures of defence posture and associated alliances. It has nothing to do with personality differences with an American leader for good or bad. A nation that basis their decisions on such frivolousness does so at their own peril. That would even include the USA if analysed its foreign relations in such a manner.

7 hours ago, Brunolem said:

Reminds of these 70s movies, such as Dracula (think USA) vs Frankenstein (think China).

 

You think this is a joke? Really?

Well done Mr. President. Restore order. Against all enemies foreign and Domestic! God Bless America! Long may she wave!

22 hours ago, Sambotte said:

And they know they can not win a military war, nor USA attack them so. Not in their plan at all i think.

They know better :

“The supreme art of war is to subdue the enemy without fighting.”
― Sun Tzu, The Art of War

Quote that to the people of the Free Country of Taiwan

15 hours ago, webfact said:

The Reuters/Ipsos poll was conducted online, in English, throughout the United States. It gathered responses from 1,114 American adults and has a credibility interval, a measure of precision, of three percentage points.

1,114 divided by 50 states that would be 22 people called in each state? I find that the sample size here is statistically nonsense. Of the 22 people how many misheard the question? How many did not understand the question, how many were underage kids lying on the phone etc etc. Just my opinion, sure everyone has one.

11 hours ago, JCauto said:

So, along with all the other Chicken Hawks

I will stop at the first line. I am a retired Navy CPO. I would be proud to have children in the navy. Unfortunately mine is prevented from joining.  You brought up family, you brought up honor. You a have been alowed unfortunately to make such a post. I don't know you. That is a good thing.

On 7/15/2020 at 4:32 PM, Sujo said:

Ever heard of online learning?

 

Ever heard of non sick passing it on to the vulnerable?

Ever heard of not prefacing your arguments with "Ever heard of". Yes I have heard of online learning and the sick passing on to the vulnerable. Online learning does not stand up I am afraid to learning that takes place in the classroom, nor is it available to everyone, as not everyone has a laptop. Nor does it work for all students. As for passing it on to the sick and the vulnerable their are precautions that can be taken. This argument is one of trade off's. Again, the country cannot stay shut down forever, nor can schools. As the Doctors have said their may very well be a round 2 or round 3. It is time to learn how to deal with this while continuing to go on with our lives. And beside the Covid what comes next? There are horrible repercussions of students on going to school. yes, and people are dying of covid and will continue to do so for some time.

On 7/15/2020 at 5:30 PM, Eindhoven said:

 

What is America's heritage and culture? Native Indians or murderous colonials?

 

There isn't just one perspective. The problem is the people who insist only their perspective should be at the fore with all others ignored or demonised.

 

So a debate should not be categorised as left or right nor extreme, but a debate.

What does this even mean? Native Americans or murderous colonials? Is that what you have reduced US history to?

16 hours ago, rudi49jr said:

If it's just one it's already too many, but I'm betting it's (way) more than one. And you do know they can carry the virus and pass it on to their (grand)parents, uncles and aunts, don't you? But who cares, it's just a flu, right?

An interesting time to bring up the top causes of deaths among college students so we can put things in perspective:

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4535338/

13 hours ago, wwest5829 said:

I had read about human sacrifices by the Aztecs to appease their gods. It appears the USA is called upon by The Donald and his ilk to continue human sacrifice in the name of money ... replacing the older gods.

Is this how you make a case for keeping schools closed? By compared the President of the United States to an Aztec Emperor? And those who believe in conservatism as no more then his subjects, or ilk as you put them?

In all things in life there are trade-offs. There is suffering from the illness, and there is suffering from the schools staying closed. To deny that long term ramifications of keeping schools closed exist simply is refusing to understand the argument.

16 hours ago, Eindhoven said:

 

But what about the people they infect? Forget about the politics. Try intelligence/common sense instead.

Please , when you make a response, try to give a reasonable argument in rebuttal. Simply stating in your response that the person you are responding to lacks intelligence and common sense, simply points to your own attributes or lack of them.

Again, it is impossible for a nation to remain in lock-down. There are negatives to remaining in lock-down that have to be balanced. This is especially true as Doctors have claimed that this virus may have a round two or three. Additionally, the mortality rate of covid seems  quite low and families can be taught to take proper precautions if they have at risk people in the home. This can be argued for and against, many ways, but none of those arguments should be reduced to laying a claim that someone lacks intelligence or common sense.

I have laid out a case twice now that contains both common sense and intelligence.

Schools staying closed. It means kids do not learn. It means long term ramifications for the Country in terms of international competitiveness. The ability to fill our Universities in the future. Kids lost to crime and gangs. Left at home neglected by parents who cannot afford childcare. In addition to lack of formation of various skills to grow with. I could go on. There really is more to this that needs to be balanced then the potential for kids to be exposed to a dreaded virus that poses little risk for them according to the statistics. Not interested in the politics of this at all.

Well, here is what I think:  Most professionals Fauci included - also issued warnings of round2 or round3...

perhaps even mutated...who knows....

I think that it may come to pass that those countries that developed a herd immunity might do well.  Economies cannot stay shut down. It is not even an option. To say it is is simply folly.

It's tragic. The world is like that. Tragedies happen. Americans, in the middle of this can't be ordered to do a damn thing.... it's in the blood - in our DNA, so even attempts at orders are folly.

People who are worried about life and death can stay home.

People who are not won't.

No sense arguing with me about it. It is what it is.

When in Rome......

Don't even think about it.