The Cipher

7 hours ago, futsukayoi said:

I suspect many of the comments you object to are from those with longer and deeper experience of the real word.  Probably those brought up in a time when people could think and analyse for themselves rather than those brainwashed into woke groupthink.  They have probably worked out that different cultral and historical backgrounds do mean that different groups around the world do tend to have different behavious, motivations etc (good or bad).

 

I also suspect they probably feel it is pretty hypocritical and extreme agist bigot trying to lecture on everyone is the same.

I'm gonna double down on my comment. I'm not 'woke', just bluntly honest in this case. I hit a bunch of nerves and now some people are triggered.

I don't even object to said comments because they're discriminatory. I mean jeez, this entire comment is just me discriminating against the less intelligent/cultured. So I'm the last person you'll find throwing woke stones.

If I object at all, it's because it's painful to watch many of the posters on here struggle to form cogent ideas (let alone correct ones) about different groups that they obviously know like zero about, but speak as if they're experts on.

The racism thing is just one facet of a wider general tendency for AN members (as a generalization) to blame externalities for the challenges they face in their lives. The government, the Hi-So, the <ethnic> foreigners, the wealthy...

And yeah, I'm being a dick by writing this. But there's no lie in my words. If the reader of this comment has spent meaningful time on this board and can't recognize the truth in this statement, I daresay it says more about the reader than the statement ????

7 minutes ago, Walker88 said:

I'm not sure that denotes any kind of moral superiority, but maybe it does look nicer

Wealth enables 'misbehavior'. I'd never suggest that wealth is a claim to moral superiority, whatever that even means - if anything, it's the opposite.

11 minutes ago, Walker88 said:

I know what you mean, but in a sense your argument is that we're good at creating the illusion of decency.  My former colleagues do tend to dress well and maybe take better care of themselves, so they are unlikely to be the beer-bellied, wife-beater-wearing guy who has planted his fat <deleted> on a barstool by 11am and doesn't leave it until late.

It's this.

Speaking for myself here (but probably generalizable), I don't really care what a person's private proclivities are. I care that when I'm out and about and we share a space or interact, that their appearance, mannerisms, and attempts at forming ideas don't actively irritate me. I'm assuming this is also where TAT is coming from, but who knows.

1 hour ago, Walker88 said:

Morality and the number of digits in a bank balance have no relation, or if they do it is likely negative.

 

In most major cities of the world very high end escort services exist. Their customers are not pinching pennies or living off a govt pension. $10K+ for a romp in the hay. The so-called 'gentlemen's clubs' in places like NYC cater to the Wall Street/Hedge Fund/RE Mogul demographic. I know that because as a buy side trader I used to be wined and dined by IBs and Prime Brokers, partly anxious for my business, but more interested in pursuing their 'passions' on the company dime, and I was the excuse they needed to go play. Most of these guys made at least $1 million a year, so they reek of 'quality' according to how that term is defined in Thailand's halls of power.

So I work in high finance and can confirm that this is, to some degree, true. Have seen some insane stuff. Have also been to a couple of parties hosed by wealthy Thais here that also have a bajillion hired escorts around as well as other forms of less-legal entertainment.

So it's true that both high wealth and low wealth people engage in 'degen' activities, but in my observation there tend to be major differences in behavior and presentation in general between those groups.

Sure, Finance Bro might bang a hooker, but he knows how to clean up nice and present well when out and about the city. He's less likely to be offensively loud or alternative in style/action. He fits more seamlessly into the picture of society that Thailand's elites envision. And there are already enough locals that don't (yet) fit into that picture, so from the pov of Thailand's Elites, why would they want to import more from overseas?

And if you've worked on the Street or with HNW folks in general, then you know that there tends to be a massive difference in idea quality and life outlook compared to, say, the average poster on this forum (proxy for the average farang in Thailand? Tho maybe not anymore). Gotta say - a move upmarket, whether realistic or not, would be kinda nice.

I arrived in Bangkok a week ago. The measures to prevent spread on arrival were not what I would consider 'excellent.'

Specifically the arrivals area to link up with the traveler's Test & Go hotel is a disorganized mess that allows for a lot of interaction with the general airport staff. That entire area is unsupervised too, so if I wanted to do a runner and skip out on Test & Go entirely, I probably could've done so.

1 hour ago, ChC1 said:

Reading some of the post talking about 'higher earning' relatives or even sons swearing 'never Thailand' again, is entertaining.

Yeah. Something feels off about those stories. I wouldn't be surprised if some posters were fibbing in an attempt to gain clout.

1 hour ago, ChC1 said:

I can only say, there is a luxury segment in Thailand's tourism, which is enjoying a booming time. You don't see these people. They are not all well known, but have higher than average net worth.

Not sure if it's enjoying a booming time right now, but luxury segment definitely does exist.

Have written this before, but the reason a large number of posters on here don't believe the luxury traveler exists in Thailand because they filter themselves into places that they can afford/where they feel comfortable, then naturally see others like themselves in those spaces and assume it's representative of the entire market.

The fact that resorts like the Ritz at Phulay Bay and the Six Senses Yao Noi exist in Thailand should say plenty. Pretty sure it isn't backpackers staying there, yo.

Birds of a feather and whatnot.

27 minutes ago, AustinRacing said:

Quite a few grumpy old men commenting about how bad Thailand is and how things will never change and all the negative stuff. If you’re not happy and believe Thailand is beneath you then pack up and go back to your better country. Nothing wrong with wanting better quality tourists and whether they get it sooner or later remains to be seen. This is their strategy.  But coming from a “superior” culture makes it hard for you to accept that. Right? 

Just speaking honestly, there's definitely an undercurrent of entitlement in many forumers here. But not like, smug entitlement. Rather, the frustrated entitlement of people who feel that their due is being denied to them. And this is mixed in with the loss of esteem that comes from declining status in the world.

My suspicion is that a lot of the old guys here were pretty mundane/overlooked in their home countries for much of their lives. And then they moved to Thailand a few decades ago and felt wealthy and important for the first time ever. Or perhaps they felt they should have felt wealthy/important, who knows?

But in the time since, the world has changed. Price levels have risen while pensions may have remained fixed. Technology has advanced, and changing geopolitical fortunes have resulted in the rise of other cultures. So a lot of the retirees here sense a loss of status, but probably can't fully explain why (although I'm articulating it for them right now).

They want to be seen as wealthy, but aren't. They want to feel important, but don't. And in part due to age, skill, and/or IQ constraints, they aren't able to change that situation. So a bitterness emerges and is constantly fueled by reminders that the world has moved on and by the sense of powerlessness that comes with that. 

It's a really interesting human case study. Yes there's a lot of objective racism on this board, but when you put it into context it's actually more of a sad picture than a nasty one. There are also a lot of lessons for younger people on pitfalls to avoid in life.

Quote

I have invested every baht in that period into the Thai economy it’s people like myself they should be trying to attract not someone who will come for two weeks and then move on 

Ok I'm choosing chaos. Since everyone seem to feel that their class of foreigner is the economic engine of Thailand, I decided to mock up this table as a thought experiment.

We know that pre-Covid there were approx 30-35 million foreign arrivals in Thailand each year. We know that there are maybe 100,000 foreign retirees in Thailand. So if we make some reasonable spend and volume assumptions about each of these groups, we can roughly gauge their importance to the economy (which is what TAT cares about).

Assuming that lower wealth tourists spend just over USD $1,000 per trip, and higher wealth tourists spend USD $10,000 per trip, we see that we only need 2 million higher wealth tourists to make up the equivalent of 20 million(!) lower wealth tourists. Added bonus of not having the country overrun by the LQ type of foreigner.

We see that middle class tourists actually are the sweet spot, spending about $3,000 per trip and contributing 50% more to the economy in total compared with the other two short term categories. This is what Thailand should be targeting.

Finally we see that there are only approx 100,000 foreigners holding retirement visas in Thailand. If each of them spends 1,000,000 THB per year we see that their contribution is relatively smaller than every other short term group. Because someone is gonna get triggered and tell me that I'm wrong, I even included an extra line where we 3x the stated lifer volume and the conclusion remains the same.

To be clear, I do think that retirees/lifers do contribute to the country in ways beyond their economic impact, and it's nice to see you guys helping your communities grow. I just wanted to provide some context to why TAT visions might be different from AseanNow perspectives.

Quote

are you dreaming??? NEVER!!!  I am saying this since years, Thailand would be still a desert and farmland up north if WE FOREIGNERS have not supported this hard working Barladies. THEY are the real income creators in Thailand and without many of us financing familys up north there would be still nothing. ????

The Thaigirls deserve a HUGE Monument in Bangkok I would build them a 20m high golden Vagina to remind all the lazy Thaimen where the wealth is coming from... and to be honest, EVERY shop in Phuket, making money because there are people like us here. I rememer Phuket and Phuket town from 1988 it was a nice little village with not many businesses and look at it today. ALL Thais won because even ppl working in Hotels, working there because WE are here. Without us, no Hotels, no nothing

Damn, the level of self-importance mixed with butthurt in this post is next level.

30 minutes ago, PB172111 said:

Forget Pattaya. It is not difficult to understand that they want a more high end tourist when you see some of the mongers that hang around the city.

It’s an embarrasing sight.

I've never been to Pattaya but in Bangkok at least, it's true that there are some uh, interesting looking characters that make up a noticeable amount of the Western foreigners here. And I'm in no position to judge people on their life choices, but as more middle and upper class Thais gain international experience I can certainly understand why the prevalence of this type of foreigner annoys/embarrasses them. Like, just honestly, it's true.

Quote

there is so much more to Thailand than bars and girls.

This is true. AseanNow forumers tend to be the demographic that's interested in the naughty nightlife, so they naturally assume that everyone else is too. Then they assume that the alternative to that is beaches/temples, which is slightly more true but still not what I, personally, think is most attractive about Thailand (Bangkok).

I'm attracted to the conventional entertainment and lifestyle opportunities here that I think are both diverse in scope and good value for money. That lifestyle isn't objectively 'cheap' for the people trying to survive on less than $1,000/mth, but it is cheaper than a comparable lifestyle in many other places and therefore what I consider to be good value within an amenity-rich and vibrant city setting.

22 minutes ago, fjb 24 said:

“a new poll from CBS News and YouGov found that of 1,731 people surveyed, 81 percent said they have not rearranged plans because of the Omicron variant or the hype surrounding it…
Only 17 percent of those surveyed said they were “very concerned about Omicron,” while about 42 percent said they were not concerned at all about Omicron despite the initial media and bureaucracy-induced panic about it.”

Thanks for sharing. It's good to see sentiment trending towards ever less concern. 

It would've been cool if this poll had been conducted at regular intervals throughout the pandemic so we could examine the evolution of the time series. The article contained an indication that a the pollsters conducted a similar survey in July, but didn't see a quick way to access the data series.

4 hours ago, hotchilli said:

Omicron is not a threat like Delta... it will not shut anything down.

Do we need restrictions for Omicron? No. (Honestly, it's been a couple of weeks now and this flaccid variant doesn't even have one single confirmed kill).

But restrictions throughout the pandemic haven't been determined based on threat level though, but rather politics and (mass market) optics.

So I wish I could be as sure as you that there won't be any new inconveniences imposed, but if case counts rise and therefore societal fear rises, I wouldn't be surprised to see some restrictions reflexively slapped on to placate the citizenry.

On 12/5/2021 at 2:33 PM, mokwit said:

The Cipher - was not having a go at you - my point is wrt to the definition of digital nomad used by many which you just happened to be the one to post. To me you are clearly a remote worker for whom it became possible with Covid. I would say you are not a 'digital nomad', but a "remote worker"  because you are employed and dependent on that job with corporation.

Oh I just saw this. You don't have to apologize to me and no offense taken. It's just a difference in definition.

For what it's worth, I do know people who run e-commerce businesses online (I do this too, actually but mine's tiny) and are able to run the operation alone or manage their employees from abroad. I do think that recent developments are increasingly ushering in a paradigm shift in the world of work.

Referring specifically to income-sustainable travel bloggers or whatever, yeah I'm sure some of those guys exist, but there can't be too many. Covid probably forced a lot of them at the margins into other employment too.

5 hours ago, tjo o tjim said:

In some places they use storage lockers

Holy, this had never occurred to me and might actually solve a problem I had elsewhere. Thanks! ????

5 hours ago, tjo o tjim said:

12 hours ago, mokwit said:

You are not really a digital nomad you are a remote working employee

Most would disagree.  This type of person still needs a residence somewhere for tax and legal purposes.  The easy solution is to keep your residence as your home country, but this is not viable for everyone. 

A ton of threads on AseanNow seem to devolve into arguments over semantics (who wants to guess why?).

I am defining this term as inclusive of all persons who are able to make a living over the internet and are whose ability to earn sufficient income for their needs is not dependent on being in any specific physical location.

For example prior to Covid this would not have included me, because I was trapped in an office Mon-Fri. But because of post-Covid changes in work it now does include me, as well as many others. This is the definition that seems to be the most congruent with the intention of the article.

Long winded way of saying that there isn't only one type of person that is location independent just like how there isn't a single type of expat retiree in the world. Demographics vary. Income and wealth levels vary. There's gonna be broke guys just barely getting by, and there's gonna be guys doing 7 figures a month in e-commerce (and everything in between).

3 minutes ago, Peterw42 said:

Yes, I have met many who "call" themselves digital nomads. Reality is they just post rubbish on social media, or make youtube videos, about being a digital nomad. Or "how to be a drop-shipping millionaire"

This forum skews pretty old, so I do find myself curious about how many under 40s you speak to. Since, you know, most remote workers are in general younger than this forum demographic.

I'm an investment analyst by day and have started spending a few months of each year working remotely in Bangkok. Girlfriend in enterprise software sales does the same. We're both 30 and many of our friends in Thailand are also able to make good livings online either via remote work or other forms of e-com.

And I'm not hiding on the internet. Will be flying into Bangkok on Tuesday (Covid-willing) and staying through March. You can probably find me if you're really that curious if we actually exist ????.

6 minutes ago, Peterw42 said:

Show me a real example of someone that is an actual digital nomad, not just someone who's only business is talking about being a digital nomad.

Hi there ????

Quote

Where do they come up with these misinformation studies.  Bangkok is not cheap, unless you're making 80, 90, 100,000 baht per month.  I was looking at renting a condo. Yep, lots, but I'm not going to pay 20/25,000 a month.  That's the reason so many available. The monthly rent more than the average Thai salary in Bangkok.  My family who live and work here live in the outskirts, in old buildings, and pay 2 to 3000 baht a month.  So do my wife and I.  

 

This week I watched a similar video that put Thailand high on the list for digital nomads because you can live here on 500$US a month...  really?

A lot of people are complaining that Bangkok isn't 'cheap' because they can't live the life they want on <income amount> per month. But could you live extravagantly anywhere on, for example, $500/mth? Why would you expect to be able to do it in Bangkok?

In fact, Bangkok is good value because experience per dollar goes far. The right comparable isn't whether you can survive on <income amount>, it's about what that amount gets you in Bangkok relative to the other cities you'd consider living in.

Although this might be a little harsh, I kind of think the root cause of the complaints about prices are actually due to an income problem that is then blamed on the externality of Bangkok.