jerrymahoney

Revision to Thailand-US DTA Article 20: Paragraph 3: Annuities. See Paragraph 1.

To the above: Textualism is a mode of legal interpretation that focuses on the plain meaning of the text of a legal document. ... or from the movie script Seven Days In May: President Jordan Lyman: All right, Colonel. Let's sum it up, shall we? You're suggesting what? Colonel Martin "Jiggs" Casey: I'm not sure, Mr. President: just some possibilities, what we call, uh "capabilities" in military intelligence... President Jordan Lyman: You got something against the English language, Colonel? Colonel Martin "Jiggs" Casey: No, sir. President Jordan Lyman: Then speak it plainly, if you will

Article 20 Par. 3 : Annuities derived and beneficially owned by a resident of a Contracting State shall be taxable only in that State. What Article 20 Par. 3 means(maybe) is that an annuity derived in Thailand by a tax resident in Thailand can only be taxed in Thailand AND An annuity derived in US by a tax resident in US -- and a US citizen is ALWAYS a tax resident of the US -- can only be taxed in US. And at least for me the 'savings clause' issue is moot because I have no annuity derived in Thailand.

https://www.oecd.org/tax/automatic-exchange/crs-implementation-and-assistance/tax-residency/United-States-Tax-Residency.pdf (Click om PNG)

No it doesn't. You left out the words "derived' and '"only" as in: Annuities derived and beneficially owned by a resident of a Contracting State shall be taxable only in that State.

OK. And just to note to some of the comments above, I have a structured monthly income -- I do not have access to large lump sums. So any large deposit prior to Jan 1, 2024, is not an option for me.

Maybe. But as I already give Thai immigration my Thai bank account details for my 65K+ monthly annual extension, a tax filing showing only Social Security and my annuity income -- which is already in the 'source of funds' letter for immigration -- that shouldn't be too difficult. And I have a good translation service that can even get a stamp from Thai MoFA going in from my Thai marriage 2 years ago.

Still I am more concerned about being trapped in the Estados Unidos than trapped in Thailand. Hasta luego.

Ok. Have fun wherever. (Really). I just computed with/if Social Security off limits and with the available deductions especially for an old codger my Thai tax bill might be $US 100 per year. No reason to go packing for me.

That is because the PNG I posted of Paragraph 3 and the verbiage you used to describe Paragraph 3 are not the same.

Right now I will just say I don't care. The annuity would only be a top-up to the Social Security to get to the 65K and if I have to pay tax on it, with all the available deductions, it won't be much. As to further interpretation of Paragraph 3, I have no further comment.

Gee Thanks.

T The italics quote was just someone looking to give me my comeuppance. And as far as I am concerned, ALL my remittances to Thailand going back 10 years and more would be covered by US-Thai DTA Article 20. I have now done the 65K+ baht per month retirement extension for the 4 years of the new regime wherein you had to supply banking records of the monthly FTT transactions. So if the revenue folks were looking for me, they would know where to find me.

Article 20 Paragraph 3 Under paragraph 3, annuities that are derived and beneficially owned by a resident of a Contracting State are taxable only in that State. An annuity, as the term is used in this paragraph, means a stated sum paid periodically at stated times during a specified number of years, under an obligation to make the payment in return for adequate and full consideration (other than for services rendered). https://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-trty/thaitech.pdf And as per Ms. Sheryl above, my Social Security payments alone are NOT enough for the min. 65K per month transfer.

If the the USA-Thai DTA article 20 Pars. 2 & 3 are applied, I won't have any tax bill in Thailand at all. And before some says: Well with what evidence of income could you prove that? at least for immigration and their "source of funds" letter, I already do.

It seems the only thing one can really do at this point is to make a lump sum foreign sourced deposit to ones Thai bank account prior to the DEC 31, 2023 witching hour.

As I have posted before, without any foreign tax credits or DTA-stuff, my tax bill based just on the currently available deductions, would be about $US 100 per month. Especially the 190K baht age 65+ credit. I wouldn't like it, but not worth packing my bags 'cause of it.

You said earlier this topic to me: What's new in 2024 is that your 65K (per month) is now reportable. Fine. But it looks like you want to be 180+ days per year tax resident in Thailand with no reportable income. Legally.

To which the answer to that query was NOT: Foreign sourced tax-free gifts up to 20 million baht as maintenance to spouse? You Betcha. We do that for our mega-wealthy tax clients all the time. Beats paying 35% tax on that 5 - 20 million baht of the gift component. Been that way since FEB 2016.

At least according to the report in their seminar as referenced by K. Dogmatix, the (Mazars?) presenter said such foreign gifts 'should' be allowed, which leads me to infer, at least according to that presenter's experience , he does know that such a foreign tax-free gift transfer that has ever happened.

I expect the first line of inquiry may be when Immigration says they won't give you an extension of stay without a Thai tax number (TIN) Also from Mazars: According to the Revenue Department, it will seek opinions from the stakeholders affected by the new rule and issue guidelines to provide more clarity. The plan includes an amendment of the personal income tax return form to facilitate the foreign tax credit claim. https://www.mazars.co.th/Home/Insights/Doing-Business-in-Thailand/Tax/Thailand-Tax-Foreign-Income-Taxable-from-2024 When or if that happens, I will comply. I am not on here asking questions as to "How will they find out if ..."

This is from the US DTA -Thailand technical report Article 20: 3. Annuities derived and beneficially owned by a resident of a Contracting State shall be taxable only in that State. The term “annuities” as used in this paragraph means a sum paid periodically at stated times during a specified number of years, under an obligation to make the payments in return for adequate and full consideration (other than services rendered). If you think I haven't filed to-date when I should have filed, fine. Turn me in.

Presume away.

I am not clever. I set up my finances 10+ years ago to conform to a monthly income of 65K+ baht even when all that was required was an affidavit from the US Embassy saying you do have it. Not did that only make it easy for me to comply with the change 4 years ago that you actually had to document a monthly 65K+ FTT transaction and have a "Source of Funds" Letter to prove it, it now works that my financial structure totally conforms to the Article 20 US-Thai DTA. So being not clever with the agent-assisted extension and other vapor-ware approaches is looking pretty good heading into 2024.