DrDweeb

You found ONE.....although not blocked out in one of the pictures! When I do a Google search, it is hard to find evidence that this is "common practice".

A strange practice though! To me.....it sends out the message "cover up"......understand "face" and all that but just a strange practice IMO.

Anyway....back on topic.

Wow. Let.....me.....speak.....slowly...... The......top......part......of......the......picture.......is.......the

.......before......photo. And......the.......bottom......part.....is.......after.......the......logo......was......painted

........out.

Yeah yeah got that....you are saying it is "common practice" to do this....it is quite evident that IT IS NOT! All I have seen is a pic from 1999 (above) and another equally historic picture. Not exactly 'common practice"! Why don't you just do a Google search for "Airline Crash" and see how many of the 100's of crash photo's have the logo's covered up! "Common practice"????

Not the majority but a small minority!

I work in the industry as well, and you would be wrong.

Get over it, and that goes for all the Thai bashers here using this idiotic "they're saving face by painting out the logo bullshit".

You are all so pathetic it hurts.

Hmm...12 people injured, some due to smoke inhalation..they do not sound "safe" to me.

Most likely, the injured parties were uncouth Chinese passengers, who had opened their seatbelts and trying to collect their carry-on luggage from the overhead storage immediately after the plane touched down....... that is the usual scenario on most Chinese flights.

while pushing and shoving everyone else out of the way , once the seatbelt off signal is given.

Then of course the increasingly assertive THAI crew tell them to SIT DOWN! Although interestingly, this scenario is becoming a little less common than just a couple of years ago, especially on THAI's Kunming flights. Indian flights are even worse though - the commotion in the cabin is something that needs to be seen to be believed.

I am reminded of a witty AA stewardess who, when the punters started milling around the cabin before the aircraft reached the gate announced,

"Passengers who are standing, will have an excellent view of the illuminated fasten seat belts sign. Please return to your seats immediately, fasten your seat belts and remain seated until the captain has switched off the aforementioned fasten seat belts sign"

This was cause for merriment, and embarrassment for the bozos standing while the aircraft was still taxiing. I laughed because for an American, she showed a remarkably good (for an American) command of the English language, and a touch of wry wit.

"After the accident and evacuation of passengers by slide, the airline moved in maintenance crews who immediately began work that partly covered up the Thai Airways International logo on the tail of the aircraft. (Photo by Panumas Sanguanwong)"

I dont think we will ever see the end of this ridiculous act of saving face.

I would suggest you look at about 100 random crash site photos from the last 30 years and count how many "tailfin paintjobs" there are. It has been (and for most airlines probably still is) SOP to cover the logos after an incident.

This has nothing to do with the airline being Thai.

You guys need to get out more often.

Oh, and judging by the massive damage to the runway, BEFORE the aircraft veered into the weeds, a failure in the nose landing gear was experienced on touchdown, causing everything else that followed (engine damage, fire, evacuation etc. etce)

I was going to suggest putting something on youtube as theres more chance of something going viral from youtube. but i went to youtube and put in "jet ski scams phuket" and lots of people have already post clips about the jet ski scams there. you can click on this link and look http://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=jet+skis+phuket&oq=jet+skis+phuket&gs_l=youtube.12...266.4828.0.7485.15.7.0.1.1.0.516.2657.2-2j2j2j1.7.0...0.0...1ac.1.11.youtube.TLy-lQlshng or if that doesn't work, go to www.youtube.com and do a search the same as i did

Why don't a few expats/tourists get down to the consulate and show support for Larry. I'm not just talking about Aussies but all nationalities as his cause effects all. No need for placards with anti Thai slogans or anti scam slogans a simple "We support Larry." The media would know what is behind it and can report as they see fit and people could take a few pics and post on one of the current face book pages or send them into various international media outlets.

Because the armed taxi mafia camped outside the resort where the Australian Consulate resides might not be impressed, and they have no qualms about pulling a weapon. Trust me on this.

kudos to Australian Honorary Consul Larry Cunningham a true blue, dinky di bottler

Siriporn Tantiphanyatep.jpgPhuket official and standover person. Siriporn Tantiphanyatep:

''And it is not wise to always say bad things about Phuket while you are still living and doing your business in this city.''

She definitely looks like a mean, nasty despicable piece of work. Imagine waking up to that every morning. Probably just needs a hug, any volunteers?

Some people just need a uniform and a bit authority, and their innate maladjustment does the rest.

Point and fire as it were ..

This was the most disgusting piece of journalism I have read for a long time. To me it smacked of the writer having been influenced (with money???) to produce an article in favour of the Thaksin regime. Lies from start to finish. TheThaksin PR machine is hard at work,

The NYT asia desk (same journalist??) also wrote an article some time ago about government by Skype.

In the article they described Thaksin as self exiled from corruption charges, rather than the accurate "bailjumper fleeing from corruption conviction".

I complained via email with no response from NYT

He managed to expose the real corruption's heart.

Kahoonas as big as coconuts, he's got my vote!!!

I know Larry personally, as do many Australians living on Phuket or as regular visitors.

Lots of Australians met Larry once and were subsequently enormously grateful to him for getting them out of all sorts of predicaments, many not all of their own making. Larry is a huge asset to visiting Australians on Phuket.

He may be the "Honourary Consul") but he does a real lot of work and as far as I know is held in high regard with the higher ups in the chain of diplomatic command.

Everyone on Phuket knows exactly who runs the "mafia" on Phuket. It is not even hidden, as these events show. There have been lots of meetings between ambassadors and consular officials form all the countries that have lots of tourists on Phuket. The diplomats know what is going on, the Thais in Bangkok turn a blind eye. You can choose why you think that is the case, it doesn't matter, it is a fact that Bangkok have ignored the descent of Phuket to its present day status of a shit hole. So far, diplomatic action has failed to get Bangkok to act and given that there have been far more extreme cases of disrespect to officials of foreign countries and property on Phuket, I am not holding my breath waiting for any action.

Until Bangkok decides to take over, and displace and prosecute certain high officials and clean up the police force (though I have only had positive interactions with the local police), then it is not likely anything will happen to improve the situation. Threats such as that made to Larry are despicable and show the true colours of the Phuket administration and how the Thais have made of an otherwise beautiful place a disgraceful shit hole run by and for the benefit of crooks and thieves.

A shitstorm of global negative publicity that embarrasses the "photo op" PM in Bangkok sufficiently might help, but the western press only ever seem to see bars when they visit Thailand, so there will be no help from them The main stream media are so busy peddling their righteous christian morality and dogma that they regularly fail to see the appalling political realities of Thailand and report it backwards when they wake up with a hangover anyway.

Things that will never change on Phuket until the bottom line (tourist dollars) dry up and Bangkok is sufficiently embarrassed to do something about it.

Dweeb

Interesting case indeed. I personally dont think he will go to jail. Too rich, we are talking billions. They will think of something. Perhaps it wasn't him in the first place. There are new witnesses that somebody else was driving and he was actually at home the whole time.

Sent from my GT-I9190 using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

that being the case lets hope he gets pinched for driving under the influence of alcohol and coke + a couple of others, then you can bet your left it will be head lines world wide.

I read in another post that the coke/drink charges already were dropped (that sounds wrong but you know what I mean - drugs/alcohol).

Those charges would not hold in other countries either. Once you have left the scene, the law has an impossible time proving that any drugs/alcohol was in your blood at the time of the accident. The suspect might have gone home and had a drink and coked up in order to steady his nerves. This is true in the west as well. No news there.

So I didn't think those charges would happen.

Leaving the scene of the accident, a no brainer which he tried to avoid by sending the family servant to fess up. Tawdry at best, an additional illegality at worst (for them both). This should be prosecuted, and a fine and loss of licence to drive at a minimum would result.

"reckless endangerment with death as a result" (or whatever Thai law calls it), is however a slam dunk, because the facts are not in question.

Someone else wrote here that "vehicular manslaughter" is not on the Thai criminal code. I do not know.

So, I would just like to let you all know, that it is quite feasible to get a hefty fine, suspended gaol sentence, loss of driver's licence and a whole host of other things thrown in but with ZERO gaol time for a conviction for "reckless endangerment with death as a result" in the WEST, never mind in Thailand. Not all countries have mandatory gaol time for this offence.

So while I personally think that in this case, the information seems to indicate that the perpetrator probably deserves a trip to the big house, it is perfectly conceivable that he wouldn't get it in either Thailand or a number of western countries.

Sorry guys & gals ...

Dweeb

Man, what a crazy set of posts. I conclude that half of the posters are Aussies (like me) and know what a rip is, how to spot it and how to avoid it and if accidentally caught in one, how to survive it.

As for some of the rest of you, <deleted> do you think those bright red flags are for? Without being too culturally insensitive, you need to be a caveman to be incapable of deducing their meaning.

I live at Surin Beach some of the time and it is dead easy to get washed out to sea and drown there. I don't know ANYONE who hasn't rescued some Taiwanese/Russian/"fill in the blank" tourist from the beach there. I have done it a relatively calm day where it wasn't the surf or rips that was the problem, but the fact that the induhvidual could not swim and was wearing clothes instead of swimming attire. Damn some people are too ignorant to be allowed out, seriously.

In Danish (a great seafaring nation) we have a saying "Kun en tåbe frygter ikke havet". Loosely translated means "Only a fool does not fear the sea" and it astounds me that this simple lesson has apparently not been taught to so many people. OK, some people are idiots with confidence in their abilities that they don't possess, and Darwin's theory holds for them as they eliminate themselves from the gene pool. But for others, simple caution and a sensible respect for good 'ol' mother nature is all that should be required.

Question: How many Australians have drowned on Phuket in the last 5 years? I am guessing not too many and there is a solid reason for that.

Sad story, really though I think that there was something else that caused the incident to develop that tragic.

I am using the tuk tuks in Patong regularly since years, basically 3 to 5 times a week when I go out. I know many of them and cant state that they are more rude than the crowd in the nighlife scene in Patong. Since this is probably not commonly known there are many policemen driving Tuk Tuks in their free time and I have (had) more than a handfull of businesscards with their name and police rankings on it. So you dont need to involve the police in any of those things when you think that you are the first or only one witnessing it. Those actions are all backed up by the bigger guys.

The situation in particular is just suspicious to me due to the fact that the driver who did the fare to Chalong had to assemble help from the spot. If this all would have been planned as either theft, beating up or both then he would have been accompanied right away from starting in Patong.

Best way is to always pay in advance no matter where the trip goes when chosing a Tuk Tuk for the ride. There is no meter to determine the price and there cannot be misunderstandings accordingly. This is all business and they are making the rules. Deal with them or let it be.

All Thais when brought to the boiling spot are ready to kill you instantly, also those with almond eyes and big t..s. But whom am I telling this.

Sad but true. I simply do not use Tuk-Tuks - EVER on Phuket. I ride my bike, or have alternate arrangements. These people are criminals and termination of a few is the only solution I see to as viable path to stop their encorachment on the public space and their powerful criminal position.

But, hey - we all knew that - this is Wonderful Thailand - LOS. Yeah right.

If anyone accuses the poor victims of being prostitutes, the thread will be closed.

But somehow, you guys have still manged to turn it into a dicussion on sex and prostitution.

Strange....

"a Russian witness had said that one of the murdered women had had a conflict with her husband before she left for her relaxation trip to Thailand." Bangkok Post.

Does anyone elase read this as suggesting she may have been whacked by long distance ?

Of course, this is what the writer in the Post was suggesting. There is also the suggestion/theory that the murders were ordered by the jealous Thai wife of a man with whom the girls had taken a trip. I would have thought it was easier for a Pattaya resident and Thai national to arrange a murder in Pattaya,Thailand than a Russian who had probably never been here.

Depends who you know.

Really, there are so many clues and unanswered information.

Who paid for their tickets?

With whom had they spoken frequently in Pattaya?

DI Plod is on the job no doubt. We shall see what the coming week brings.

If anyone accuses the poor victims of being prostitutes, the thread will be closed.

But somehow, you guys have still manged to turn it into a dicussion on sex and prostitution.

Strange....

"a Russian witness had said that one of the murdered women had had a conflict with her husband before she left for her relaxation trip to Thailand." Bangkok Post.

Does anyone elase read this as suggesting she may have been whacked by long distance ?

Hi DrDweeb:

Not really. You seemed completely unaware of the negative consequences to the environment, and your analogy is completely bogus. Anyone can make a bogus analogy: "Saying nuclear war would wipe out millions is like saying sneezing causes hurricanes".

Did you bother to do the arithmetic? ca. 1,150,000 over 10yrs vs ca. 20,000 over 80 years.

Did you even understand the analogy?

Well, it's only credible to you if you agree with it. What is your problem with Wikipedia? Anything you don't agree with you will simply call "not credible". You bring up anything to support your self-serving delusions.

Never said any such thing, but YOU claimed that Thailand's prostitution was the least offensive in the world, which would make YOU somewhat of an expert, unless you were just making up stuff again.

Never interracted with any prostitutes in Pattaya, and didn't "d a m n" you. Just mentioned that you seemed to have implicated yourself as an expert on brothels of the world. If you consider that you inadvertently "damned" youself, that's your own moralizing.

Well, you commentary was clear enough. To intimate something directly, and claim not to have done so in the next sentence and to follow it up, seems, well, an intent to da mn and I take it as such.

Depends on what you mean by "have seen more." I'll grant you've seen more golf courses. But you seem to have less of a handle on reality, which means "seeing less" when it comes to the big picture.

Find someone who believes that and deliver your lecture to him or her. Thais, Burmese, Cambodians and other S.E. Asians have historically perpetuated extraordinary atrocities on each other. Vlad the Impaler would be impressed. However, one must still "rationally" face that Western culture has also commited atrocities, and we ARE largely responsible for the proliferation of prostitution in Thailand in the later 20th century.

There is no limit to human barbarity - on this we can agree. I remain unconvinced of the cause effect. Latent demand and all that jazz.

I never condemned you for using prostitutes. Never said you did. Didn't even assume it. You're awfully defensive on the subject, but, that could be purely academic. I will note that your idea of prostitution as an agreement between "consenting adults" is really sugar-coating a starker and much more complicated reality in which terms like "adult" and "consenting" or "agreeing" are all very fluid and possibly misleading.

Which has bigger golf courses? Your choices just show what your priorities are, and they aren't the culture.

Another barb at the golfer. Can't resist can you? Golf courses are not rated by size. You really are a cultural elitist and it just oozes out of your posts. Are you more a cultural elitist or a tree hugger - I am uncertain?

Lived in NY for a big chunk of my life. Also been to the Netherlands and smoked pot in the bars… You keep trying to pin me as moralizing when I'm just stating the blindingly obvious. All I said is that there's a connection between crime and areas with rampant prostitution and bar venues. Don't know why you can't handle that. Seems like a guilt thing. for some reason you need to try and paint me as moralizing or condemning you simply because I stated an obvious fact. I"m still surprised that there are so many guys in Thailand who can't face some simple historical and sociological facts. It's like if I were to mention that drug smugglers were killed on site in the Golden Triangle, and someone was to up and say I'm condemning them for doing drugs.

Well, it actually sounds not like i'm moralizing, but like you are avoiding anything like a moral perspective for fear of certain uncomfortable truths, because you don't want to feel immoral. I say just continue as you are and live with those truths. Golf, but don't try to deny that the golf courses are having a negative impact on the environment. Be a man and chose to golf anyway. And, for the sex tourists, of course they are opportunistically taking advantage of economic disparity. That's just a fact and not a moral stance. You're not going to have attractive young women for peanuts unless there's something like an underclass in a Third World Country to supply them.

If that were true, are all prostitutes in affluent 1st world countries with fabulous government funded social networks and education systems etc. etc. etc. ugly?

<deleted>, another shot at the golfers, you really do hate us. The problem with your thesis is that it is trivial, and like most people with no concept of numbers, you latch on to a triviality that may be objectively true in some micro sense, and elevate it to a fundamental issue. Golf courses in Thailand are not a problem, my anology about Texan flatulence (obviously lost on you) was close to the mark.

Man you sound like the Californian preppies I had to endure way back. Barrfff. So many moral judgements and positions in one paragraph - too late to be bothered replying now.

Took about 3. Lived in Thailand for a year, but had travelled there before and studied the language over several years. Puut paasaa Thai dai, dta, donee, rian paasaa jiin prawaa muang Thai mii Farang mai di leui gern bpai (excuse my transliteration, I don't really use it). Take my advice, don't bother with the reading and writing. More effort than it's worth.

Someone else said that to me that (about the reading and writing), so thats 2 and 0.

That really was my last post.

I am actually more interested to see how the murder case pans out.

BANGKOK POST March 5, 2007

Today's Top Stories

Two more held for murder of Russians

By Jerdsak saengthongcharoen

Police have arrested two more suspects in connection with the murder of two Russian women in Pattaya city, Chon Buri, and are investigating whether the men were members of any transnational criminal organisation.

According to Pattaya police chief Suthin Sappuang, police yesterday arrested Monthol Boonmee, 30, and Tinakorn Meeklee, 21.

Both are residents of Bang Lamung district of the eastern province.

Monthol is the owner of the motorcycle that Anuchit Lamlert, the 24-year-old suspected gunman, used to approach Tatiana Tsimfer, 30, and Liubov Svirkova, 25, on Jomtien beach where he killed them on Feb 24. Tinakorn is suspected of hiding Anuchit's pistol after the killing.

Police plan to charge Monthol and Tinakorn for abetting the crime because they were well aware of Anuchit's robbery record and plans. Pol Col Suthin said that it was still not clear who had masterminded the murders.

Pol Lt-Gen Asawin Khwanmuang, chief of Provincial Police Bureau 2 that supervises the East, said that police were checking the backgrounds of the murder victims who came from Moscow.

He said police were fed a lot of information through the Russian consulate in Thailand, and a Russian witness had said that one of the murdered women had had a conflict with her husband before she left for her relaxation trip to Thailand.

However, Anuchit, who was arrested on Thursday, said during a re-enactment of the crime yesterday that he had acted alone.

He said he only wanted to rob them but as they had seen his face while he was approaching them, he decided to kill them and flee without taking any of their belongings.

The plot thickens, as DI Plod's men close in on the villians.

The quotes got too complicated and would not post - so I waxed em all.

Last post on this, since we are way off topic:

I think I wrote "apparently". I did not bother to find the comparative figures. The point was that they respresent a large and growing segment who apparently choose to visit despite your opinion of the place.

--

Fact 1: Between 1990 and 2000, Thailand lost an average of 115,100 hectares of forest per year.

Fact 2: There are ca. 200 courses in Thailand, constructed since 1924 (Royal Hua Hin)

Fact 3: An 18 golf course usually requires ca. 35-60 Hectares.

I will let you do the math !

Claiming that Golf courses are a deforestation issue, is like claiming that Texans eating red bean chilli are a greenhouse gas issue.

Golf is an easy target - we are used to it.

--

I recall that you claimed to have visited Pattaya once - was I mistaken? A newbie in that sense seems appropriate.

--

Fact 4: Wikpedia != fact.

Please quote me a real source that says Pattaya (or did you mean Chon Buri) has higher violence rates - generally - than other provinces. I am always interested in any credible information.

--

I have visited a few hel_l-holes. The "folly of youth" is to discount the future heavily, subsequently young people indulge in behaviour that older individuals deem unwise. Is your claim that your only brush with prostitution was in Pattaya and that because I make a comparative claim, you infer that I am some sort of expert on the subject?. Making a comparative observation requires an experience level of greater than 1. Your damnation of me requires that your experience level is 1 or less, otherwise you are in the same category as me (ie. damned). Pattaya is your 1 experience then?

But obviously never walked down 42nd street before they cleaned it up or drank a beer on the Reeperbahn, or ... Both of these venues are spitting distance very well populated tourist destinations and are/were easy to visit. Too seriously sleezy places. Your travel venues are your own choice, just don't assume you have seen it all, or that those who might have experienced more are somehow less worthy.

--

So let us take for a given that it's all western influence that prostitution grew in Thailand (it always existed). Lots of things have grown large in Thailand consistent with lots of other activities. The "it's all our fault we have corrupted the pure innocent tribal peoples blah blah blah" cry is a common thread in a large part of academia since the mid 60's. With luck, this intellectual cultural self flagellation might be replaced sometime in our lifetimes with something more rational - but I digress.

Anyhow, so repressed Thai men now have a better opportunity to get laid that they did not have before and apparently it's all America's fault. Yawn ...

Before you jump down my throat I will add the obligatory disclaimer on this subject. I in no way support or condone the trafficking of women and children that is a small part of this particular aspect of thailand. I do not have problems with adults choosing to do whatever they agree with each other - in Thailand or anywhere else.

--

Aha, a cultural bigot.

Phuket is way way bigger than Patong and Bangala Rd., just as Pattaya is more than the Walking street and seedy sois nearby.

The last part of your post is just crap. Don't visit New York, 42nd st and the Bronx exist, Don't visit Germany, they have FKK clubs, don't visit Holland, you can smoke dope legally, etc.

ps: If you learned to speak and write Thai in 1 year, I am impressed!!

Hmm.

I will leave the idea that golf courses are some ecological disatser aside - you clearly do not hav a clue about this.

Sadly, you are clueless on the topic, and it apparently never entered your head that clearing land to build golf courses (sometimes clearing forest), using pesticides, and diverting water that is sometimes sorely needed elsewhere (yes, Thailand suffers from drought) is damaging to the environment. Do a little research so you don't look painfully ignorant. You can add despoiling the environment for rich tourists to exploiting girls in the undesirability of Pattaya category (at least for those who are interested in Thailand as opposed to just exploiting it's resources, human, environmental, economic...)

http://www.american.edu/TED/asiagolf.htm

http://www.newint.org/issue263/chasing.htm

The highest number of visitors to Pattaya/Jomtien/Nakula area last year was apparently Russian. A casual observer will note that a large number of Russians bring their families with them - I suspect that the "sex-scene" is not their primary motivating factor.

Interesting, and suspicious. I'd like to see some statistics to back this. Seems a poor choice of destination to me, and apparently to other participants in this forum.

There is a large, reasonably well patronised bar and sex scene - let there be little doubt.

And with that comes the crime. Again, people want their cake and to eat it, too. But, in reality, prostitution is a sleazy business that does in fact exploit girls (even if some turn out to be ironclad exploiters themselves, and if others take up the trade willingly), and in such atmospheres when lowlifes congregate, there is increased violence and petty crime, just as their is the increased likelihood of fist fights in bars as opposed to libraries.

This doesn't change the fact that However, there really are loads of places frequented by loads of people who are not interested in the wares of go-go and girlie bars, they are just entertaining drinkinging venues.

Of course, just as there are plenty of things to do in Vegas besides gambling. But, in Vegas there is gambling, and in Pattaya there is the sex scene. Do you own a condo there or something. Here, read what the Wikipedia has to say on the topic, which, I guess, echoes my sense of reality and not yours:

Crime

Historically, Pattaya has had comparatively high levels of crime, sometimes attributed to organised crime in the sex industry. In addition, a string of apparently related murders, all western tourists, occurred around Pattaya in 1975, are now believed to have been committed by the Frenchman Charles Sobhraj.

In recent years, Pattaya has served as a hideaway for foreigners with connections to organized crime, and dozens have been murdered in gang-related disputes.[5]The authorities are also increasingly cracking down on paedophiles and a number of high profile arrests have been made in recent years, an announcement to this effect was made in 2004. In 1996, a six-member gang was arrested for repeatedly robbing tourists that had been drugged by prostitutes.

Visitors are more likely to encounter petty crime, usually limited to pickpocketing and confidence tricks, particularly in and around major tourist areas such as Jomtien and Pattaya Beaches. To help curb this problem, a special Tourist Police division has been established to aid foreign tourists (farang) who are victims of crime.

An aside, and a little off-tangent, but, some just aren't clear why there's so much prostitution in Thailand and places like Pattaya. It's NOT because Thais are genetically prone to prostitution and not only approve of it but love it, and love sexpats, rather, it's because of economically and otherwise more powerful countries infiltrating Thailand and requiring it:

attaya was simply a small fishing village until it was discovered as a beach resort by Bangkok residents in the 1960s. Soon thereafter, American servicemen from the U.S. Air Force base at U-Tapao in neighbouring Rayong province began using the area for "rest and recreation" (R&R), causing a huge boom in prostitution. When the Americans left following the end of the Vietnam War, the city fell into a crisis. However, modern mass tourism, particularly Sex tourism from Europe and America brought a new lease of life to Pattaya.

That's just f_____g reality. Don't blame me.

Oh, by the way, I do not think there is more crime in the places you mentioned.

You're in denial. See above quotes.

You should brush up on some crime statistics. Google away.

Google searches prove me right across the board. Do your own research before spouting. This isn't flipping brain surgery.

I cannot bothered to quote block this.

A quote from http://www.american.edu/TED/asiagolf.htm

"The caddies are women and each golfer has three or four caddies - one to carry the clubs, one to tote an umbrella and another to lug a chair and water."

I played one ball behomd Taksin at Alpine (before the coup) and even his entourage had only 2 caddies per person, which is in itself pretty rare. Also, my regular caddies at 2 of the courses I play regularly are male, both with 10+ years experience. So much for the reliability of that document. This is a polemic and not worthy of further discussion. The other document correctly states "mostly female" but otherwise is full of inuendo and "bring down the rich" bias.

It is factually incorrect that all golfers are rich elitists, as any review of the memebrship of national golf unions would testify. This fallacy has been debunked so many times it is not worth commenting. That "rich elitists" also play golf is not the same thing.

--

"According to the Tourism Authority of Thailand, last year the number of Russian tourists totalled 31,575, a big jump from 19,841 in 2005. Russian arrivals last year accounted for 2.5 per cent of all 12 million visitors to Thailand. The growing popularity of Thailand for Russian travellers has encouraged Thai Airways to begin direct flights between Bangkok and Moscow." The Nation.

Mr. Chachawan Suphachayanon, the President of the Thai Hotels Association Eastern Seaboard Chapter, ...

said the Russian Mafia murders did not really concern tourists as the police had made arrests. He stated that the Russian tourist market was one of Pattaya’s largest. Pattaya Mail

You make the typical newbie mistake of assuming the that the many cynical individuals who populate this forum represent anything even remotely typical. I do not recognise the Pattaya they portray, and I am a regular guest in town. Also, quoting Wikpedia does not win any points with me by the way.

--

In reality, prostitution in Thailand is perhaps the least sleazy example of it on the globe - just my HO. Few people visit libraries for their vacations, though I did stop off at the Bodlian once. My best guess is that aside from the european prostitution rings, the organised crime and gang activity is concentrated in other areas (protection money, drugs etc.). Again, my guess.

--

Your idea that prostitution in Thailand is because of western influence is so far off base that I am amazed at your ignorance on the subject. While Thais are not "genetically" predisposed to it any more than any other group of humans does not alter the fact that (and I quote a random source).

"While the foreign aspect of prostitution in Thailand and the Philippines may garner the most attention and money, most of the customers, patronizing the cheapest establishments, are native: "[a]ccording to reliable surveys of sexual behaviour, every day at least 450,000 Thai men visit prostitutes"47 (emphasis mine). Thus, much of the impetus sustaining the incredible rate of prostitution in Thailand is cultural; "Thai men think it is their right to have cheap sex, ... and there are enough poor Thai women to make it possible."48 Prostitution in many cases has become integrated with initiation rights: "[f]or many Thai men, a trip to the neighborhood brothel is a rite of passage, a tradition passed from father to son."49 Certainly, prostitutes play a large part in forming the sexual identity of young Thai males; "a demonstration of heterosexual orientation by having sex with a female prostitute is an important rite of passage for some groups of Thai men."50 This is borne out by the available statistics: "tudies show that the majority of Thai men have their first sexual experience with a prostitute - the act is often a part of high school and university hazing rituals - and that 95% of all men over 21 have slept with a prostitute."51 In addition to rites of passage, the activity of visiting a whorehouse has become a social activity in many cases, "'Sex with prostitutes seems to be a way for men to enjoy each other's company,' notes Barbara Franklin of Care International, ... 'It is often part of a night out with friends who share food, drink and sometimes even sexual partners.'"52"

There are 000's to choose from that say the same thing.

---

I live on Phuket, when I live in Thailand, and yes I have a condo. Not that it is any of your f*ing business or has any relevance!

--

Using a half quote to alter context is generally regarded as poor form. The fact remains that very few tourists/foreigners are murdered by gunfire, yet Thailand is one of the world's top places for death by gunfire per capita. I illogically conclude from this that the firearms crimes were happenning somewhere other than the tourist destinations and against Thais. I then illogically assume that more or less the same crime distribution will be evident for other forms of crime.

--

Just to calrify the "rascist" issue here...

As I understand the underlying meaning from some of the posters here, I would like to clarify the word "rascist" some.

The human kind is roughly divided into 3 main branches:

1. The Caucasian, with roots from the European continent ("Farang" in thai language)
   
2. The Mongolian, which goes for east asian people plus eskimoes and native Americans (Indians)
   
3. The Negroid, which represent people with roots from Africa
   

For example...

/Ga-gai

From a biological point of view your are talking utter rubbish. Biology does not recognize the concept of human "race" there is one and only one human species, that of Homo Sapiens sapiens, which is not divided further. The definition of race is subjective, often unreliable, but always leading to prejudices.

Now there are mnany way of classiffying human beings, your use of anthropomorphic criteria is highly debatable because it does not take into account the diversity of peole within each group you mentionned. One could use blood type or more seriously genetic markers but still there owuld be exception.

But I am not going to lecture you on the subject. Do your homework, starting by The Mismeasure of Man by Stephen J. Gould. Accessible to the the lay audience.

[sandy]

Unfortunately, the meaning of the word "race" in etymological terms was more or less fixed way before science had the facts in place. The "scientific" explanation, and the "general usage" are somewhat at odds now. Even worse, is the fact that "racism" is the catch cry of the intellectually bankrupt appeaser and bleeding heart liberal whenever issues relating to culturally biased behaviour is discussed - making the word almost useless as a definition today. There is another thread somewhere discussing this a bit.

An example from Chambers:

race2: noun 1 any of the major divisions of humankind distinguished by a particular set of physical characteristics, such as size, hair type or skin colour. 2 a tribe, nation or similar group of people thought of as distinct from others. 3 (the human race) human beings as a group. 4 a group of animals or plants within a species, which have characteristics distinguishing them from other members of that species.

"QUOTE(Oswulf @:02:42) *

QUOTE(RHCP @:47:05) *

... Another thing that becomes legas is driving on the main road under the elevated expressway when it rains ...

Er, I do not understand that. What is the "main road" and why would it not be a normal thoroughfare in the normal case ??

Motorcycles are allowed on the Bus / very left lane only and forbidden on bigger bridges and all flyovers. You can only use the right lane in case you turn right.

Aha. I thought that was just the "slow moving" variety, not you basic CBR1000.

Live and learn.

Activities

1. Learning to fly

2. Sailing

3. Snorkelling

4. Skydiving

5. Temples

6. Sightseeing

Need I go on. Stay in you own silly corner by yourself, or maybe I'll join you for even bothering to answer your stupid request.

I'm afraid that you are only seeming sillier. Do you actually believe the #1 reason people go to Pattaya is to "learn to fly"? Ha, ha, ha, ha, ha. And, it's also curious to me that your top 4 reasons to go to Pattaya have NOTHING to do with Thailand, Thai people, or Thai culture, which says a LOT about you. #5 is simply "temples," as if you wouldn't find much better ones in Banbkok, for starters.

So, again, what are the main 3 reasons people go to Pattaya, and what can they find there that they can't find better elsewhere?

You silly, silly thing.

GOLF !

There are, from memory 20+ courses within easy driving distance of Pattaya. It is THE reason that I go to Pattaya on EVERY trip to Thailand. Any serious golfer who has not made the jorney to Pattaya to sample the courses has missed a lot. Also, a number of the courses are quite inexpensive, and of sufficient interest and quality to warrent a round or two.

A few beers in the evening, a relaxing day at the resort beach (there are other beaches beside Pattaya Beach Rd.) and it is pretty easy to get a week to pass, inexpensively. It is possible for a male to spend a week in Pattaya or Phuket or any other place without buying sex - trust me on this.

Additionally, a trip to the Tiger park, Khaeow Kheo Zoo, perhaps the elephant sanctuary etc. etc. There are plenty of "tourist" venues. A trip to the local markets is always fun, but I guess you never found that.

Oh, and I forgot to mention. Pattaya is very cheap relative to Phuket, which is possibly a reason that it is so polpular with the Russians . Oh, have you ever been to Russia? I lived there - and trust me - Pattaya IS PARADISE compared to a normal day in Moscow - and winter in Moscow and farther afield (winter is now FYI) is largely unbearable.

You really need to stop using you misguided moral compass to measure reality. It will get it wrong every time.

Golf?! No denying that the golf courses are there because people go all the way to Thailand to use them (Hey, let's go to Cambodia to play a good game of tennis while we're at it.). And, as you suggest, there probably are some people who go to Pattaya primarily to play golf and enjoy other Western ammenities at Third World discount rates. But, back to that "reality" you were trying to measure, the crime isn't happening on the golf courses (unless you count the destruction to the natural environment and water wastage), but in the centers for prostitution, bar venues...

Let's all focus again. In Bangkok there is more crime in Patpong and Kao San than in, let's say, Bpaak Naam. Why? Well, there's more foreigners, prostitution, bars, clubs, drunks... This isn't a moral argument, it's just as simple as saying, "where there are more birds there are more feathers." Certain atmospheres are going to attract less desirable persons, and there's going to be more criminal activity. Brothels and Go-go bars aren't frequented only by lowlifes and pathetic rejects, of course, but, the lowlifes and pathetic rejects with make a b-line for Pattaya.

Haven't you seen a lot of really, well, loser-looking types wearing shirts that say, "Good boys go to heaven. Bad boys go to Pattaya?" Guess where they end up? Guess how late they stay out? Guess who is an easy target? Guess who no one's going to think twice about robbing?

Sure, Pattaya has other attractions than sex--I myself went there to see a large temple sculpted out of teak wood--but, most people go there for the sex scene, and that general type of seedy atmosphere isn't going to be without it's shady characters, petty crime and violence.

As to your thing about a moral compass. None needed, none applied. It's not a moral issue. Just simple observation of the blindingly obvious. What IS interesting is why some of you need to deny it. Why can’t you face the simple truth?

How about this. If one is concerned for one's safety, and one isn't in Thailand for sex, than destinations other than Pattaya may be more desirable. Can you handle THAT? Though I do fully acknowledge that if one is simply going to be taking advantage of golf courses, and possibly even going to church on Sundays in Pattaya, that person will avoid most the danger.

Hmm.

I will leave the idea that golf courses are some ecological disatser aside - you clearly do not hav a clue about this.

A few random thoughts.

The highest number of visitors to Pattaya/Jomtien/Nakula area last year was apparently Russian. A casual observer will note that a large number of Russians bring their families with them - I suspect that the "sex-scene" is not their primary motivating factor. It is, as I pointed out, sun, sea, sand and it's inexpensive - and it is so f*ing cold in Russia right now, the choice is not a bad one. It is eminently possible to have a great vacation without ever visiting the walking street or the seedy sois. Many people do just that and guess what - because they do, you have never seen them and presume that they do not exist.

There is a large, reasonably well patronised bar and sex scene - let there be little doubt. However, there really are loads of places frequented by loads of people who are not interested in the wares of go-go and girlie bars, they are just entertaining drinkinging venues. Plenty of people go to bars to drink and play pool or whatever, then quietly go home, have a sleep and hit the beach (or whatever) the next day. They are indistinguishable for the sex-punters, until they leave alone. Most people leave bars and go-go places alone. While it may look like a candy store, not everyone has a sweet tooth.

As for money and corruption and crime following the money, sure. And there are some low-lifes around Pattaya and the bar scene. They are however a very small minority and of no real interest. The real crime is the organised stuff, begind the scenes. I am unconvinced that the Thai criminals are all that interested in the sex-trade, which is largely freelance girls. Not true for the eastern european girls, who seem to be on a short leash. I do not claim expertise on Pattaya specifics in this area.

The only violence I have personally observed was a young Thai guy who practised his kick boxing on his girlfriends head while his 6 mates watched. Broken bones, concussion etc. They all just laughed while the farangs looked on, horrified and unwilling to find out if all 7 were carrying firearms. The police phone line was unanswered, as was the tourist police line. The girl is lucky to be alive, if indeed she still is. Not related to corruption or sex I would say, looked like a domestic violence scene. Happens every day in every town in Thailand.

Oh, by the way, I do not think there is more crime in the places you mentioned. However, there certainly is more crime committed against tourists, because that is where the tourists are. I guess 99% of Thai crime is unreported in the wetsern language press, so I think your logic and conclusion is flawed due to minimal actual knowledge (1 trip to Pattaya and you are an expert).

You should brush up on some crime statistics. Google away.

"QUOTE(Oswulf @:02:42) *

QUOTE(RHCP @:47:05) *

... Another thing that becomes legas is driving on the main road under the elevated expressway when it rains ...

Er, I do not understand that. What is the "main road" and why would it not be a normal thoroughfare in the normal case ??

Why June, why not start enforcing this law now?

Maybe because then it will be low season, and a lot of moto-cy drivers will have gone back to the moo baan. Announcing it in advance also gives them a chance to think of something else to do... cut-grass, rummage through rubbish bins, sell brooms from a barrow, hand out "sexy lady" leaflets, etc, etc.

dont recall every seeing a farang tourist on the back of a biketaxi - Especially in BKk - so dont see low season happening - as OP said these guys provide a great service and I for one use them on a regular basis as it saves me driving my car to places I cant park in my neighbourhood - and yes cheap -- and they are always so helpful and willing to help out if they can = i am happy to tip where necessary - even the other farang living here in my building use them everyday -teachers of course -- going to the BTS etc -- so i hope to see their working conditions get better if that is possible -- they do endure all sorts of lousy weather - long days - and survival income - but I will wait to see how long they take to enforce these new rules and how long they will be enforced for --

LOL - you are kidding, right?

There are lots of A to B routes that can only be negotiated on a Bike at certain times of day, unless you like 3 hour taxi rides.

While the "tourist" falang may be less willing to use the motorbike taxi, the regulars/locals have no problems.

I congratulate the MIB in the capture of the alleged Murderer.

I hope the new Police General takes very stringent action to assure the safety of expats. tourists, and Thai people in Patttaya. I think it was a good idea to reassign some MIB. More needs to be done. The General should institute proactive policeing. He should assure that the MIB are out patrolling, not just kicked back somewhere. Repeat offenders and violent criminals should receive harsh criminal penalites. Any crime with a gun, or weapon involved, should result in some significant prison time. Good quality survielance cameras should be installed in all the tourist areas. Beach road should be patroled at all hours by a visible respectful Police presence. Plain clothed men who are properly trained and ready to take action if necessary should be part of the enforcement effort. This way organized criminals will not be forewarned of police presence. Part ot the law enforcement effort should be using volunteer foreign nationals to assure tourists are not being ripped off by for instance by Baht Bus Drivers, any other bussineses, individual criminals, or crimnal gangs, of any national origin.

Agreed. In the west this is called policing, and carried out by the police. As yet, the Thai police have not demonstrated sufficient willingness to engage in these activities (IMHO). The reasons are many, not the least of which is likely to be the issue of corruption. Oh, at least we have CCTV on Beach road now, which is relatively new IIRC.

Activities

1. Learning to fly

2. Sailing

3. Snorkelling

4. Skydiving

5. Temples

6. Sightseeing

Need I go on. Stay in you own silly corner by yourself, or maybe I'll join you for even bothering to answer your stupid request.

I'm afraid that you are only seeming sillier. Do you actually believe the #1 reason people go to Pattaya is to "learn to fly"? Ha, ha, ha, ha, ha. And, it's also curious to me that your top 4 reasons to go to Pattaya have NOTHING to do with Thailand, Thai people, or Thai culture, which says a LOT about you. #5 is simply "temples," as if you wouldn't find much better ones in Banbkok, for starters.

So, again, what are the main 3 reasons people go to Pattaya, and what can they find there that they can't find better elsewhere?

You silly, silly thing.

GOLF !

There are, from memory 20+ courses within easy driving distance of Pattaya. It is THE reason that I go to Pattaya on EVERY trip to Thailand. Any serious golfer who has not made the jorney to Pattaya to sample the courses has missed a lot. Also, a number of the courses are quite inexpensive, and of sufficient interest and quality to warrent a round or two.

A few beers in the evening, a relaxing day at the resort beach (there are other beaches beside Pattaya Beach Rd.) and it is pretty easy to get a week to pass, inexpensively. It is possible for a male to spend a week in Pattaya or Phuket or any other place without buying sex - trust me on this.

Additionally, a trip to the Tiger park, Khaeow Kheo Zoo, perhaps the elephant sanctuary etc. etc. There are plenty of "tourist" venues. A trip to the local markets is always fun, but I guess you never found that.

Oh, and I forgot to mention. Pattaya is very cheap relative to Phuket, which is possibly a reason that it is so polpular with the Russians . Oh, have you ever been to Russia? I lived there - and trust me - Pattaya IS PARADISE compared to a normal day in Moscow - and winter in Moscow and farther afield (winter is now FYI) is largely unbearable.

You really need to stop using you misguided moral compass to measure reality. It will get it wrong every time.

Well it certainly sounds like students and children are targets now.

Naturally, they are soft targets. If you belong to a radical, totally trivial minority without popular support but with weapons, the way forward is clear. It is tried and proven. Hit soft targets, run and hide, and start a reign of terror against anyone who might disagree, no matter what their affiliation (in this case kill muslims who do not subscribe to the "cause") etc. It's not like these tactics were thought up by these people - I doubt whether any of them are that smart.

Eventually everyone will get tired of the killing and perhaps some pointless agreement will be reached between a small heavily armed elite and their "enemy" the state. After which this elite will then proceed to embark upon the necessary activities to cleanse their territory and achieve their misguided inhuman aims.

Sorry, guys, this is how it works. Deal with it now, or watch with horror now and more later.

The bottom line is Islam is still in the 12C and it's most radical believers have lots of firearms. Sharing the earth is not part of their religion - explicitly the opposite in fact. You do the math.

It was neither pointless nor ill- informed.

1: It's point was to puncture your pseudo intellectualism - somewhat successful judging from you response.

2: Since the post contained no information, it can hardly be described as "ill-informed" - though in fairness, you may have been referring to fellow TV posters who almost universally disagree with you.

I suggest you look into the history of a few revolutions/insurgencies etc, successful and otherwise. The answer to why the "apparent support base" might be targetted is easy to spot and is likely true also in the case in question. Your waffle (while on the face of it reasonable) is that of someone not really willing to face the ugliness of the perpetrators and their motives.

Last post, i gotta go sleeping.

Yeah, look at the history of revolutions/insurgencies, especially the one closest to this one, both regionally and issue wise, that being Aceh. This was solved at the negotiation table, and not by escalation, or fanatic anti-islamism.

After that, i would suggest then to forget your blathering about complete extermination of the opponent, mistaken ideas on the even in the Islamic world hotly debated concept and validity of jihad, and the difference how this concept is applied by insurgents striving for separatism, and the organisations striving for an extended Kaliphate, the lack of any monolithic structure therein.

And as to the "perpetrators" in particular this conflict in Southern Thailand, which is the topic of this thread, there is a clearly documented history of equal measure of human rights abuses. As is in almost all such conflicts.

And as to the rumors of Al- Quaida types - until i see the first foreign fighter being captured or killed, i prefer to stay with the available evidence, and not speculation. There of course will be networking, but many seperatist groups reject the ideology of what i would term as "international jihad".

Case example is Kashmir - where most of the initial JKLF rebels have either retired or even joined the Indian government when the direction was taken over by the ISI sponsored groups (equipped with both Saudi and US funding channeled over from Afghanisthan funds), as they neither aspired to join a religious fundamentalist Pakisthan, or a fuzzy caliphate proposed by the more loony groups, but independence with a soft Islamic rule.

Basically, the best and only option for the South is trying to achieve what has been achieved in Aceh.

Soft Isalmic rule - a new oxymoron.

I will just go out and laugh uncontrollably