DrDweeb

It might be that the answer is inconsistent with your position - whoops - cognative dissonance. waffle waffle waffle.

Yeah, good night, i am getting tired of this pointless and ill informed rubbish.

It was neither pointless nor ill- informed.

1: It's point was to puncture your pseudo intellectualism - somewhat successful judging from you response.

2: Since the post contained no information, it can hardly be described as "ill-informed" - though in fairness, you may have been referring to fellow TV posters who almost universally disagree with you.

I suggest you look into the history of a few revolutions/insurgencies etc, successful and otherwise. The answer to why the "apparent support base" might be targetted is easy to spot and is likely true also in the case in question. Your waffle (while on the face of it reasonable) is that of someone not really willing to face the ugliness of the perpetrators and their motives.

So, you have some evidence of popular support, which would seem to be a pre-requisite for your statements? I do not see an armed uprising of the masses, just a lot of thugs with guns. I am a distant observer however, and not only the kill ratio is clearly tipped 3:1 in favour of muslim deaths v. buddhist deaths. They seem to be targetting those who might conceivably support them rather than some nebulous enemy.

This is a very difficult question to answer. I don't think anyone can answer this question other than by allowing a vote on autonomy there, and looking at the results. But in the present climate this is hardly possible.

Reality is usually somewhere in between. Pure speculation here, but i doubt that the insurgents have large support in their tactics, even though there are clear "red zones" - villages where the support runs high. Nevertheless, the issues involved i believe have huge support down south. It is not just Muslims vs. Buddhists, even though both the more radical insurgents and the more radical Thai nationalists would like to paint that picture.

I have friends from Pattani, both Buddhists and Muslims, neither support the insurgents, and they don't support the Government either.

Most Muslim dead killed by the insurgents there were either "collateral damage" (i do hate the expression), or were working for the government, be that teachers, Puyai bans, informants, armed volonteers, etc. Basically, representatives of the Thai state.

Sad reality of those sort of conflicts are that they will continue to escalate so far that both warring sides have not the slightest bit of legitimacy left, employ the same horrific tactics, and the local population lives in equal fear of both sides, and then somehow they might be forced onto the negotiation table by both internal and external pressure.

It might be that the answer is inconsistent with your position - whoops - cognative dissonance. waffle waffle waffle.

Not even worth an answer, but check Iraq, Philippines, and a few other places or go back to my old posts. All the same goals, all the same battle cries, and seemingly all the same religion. Some news clipping suggest some of Osama’s people are now active in the south so it is one big happy pack of animals here. That is why I was not limiting my comments to just Thailand you need to look at the bigger picture.

Kayo I am not bashing him, I am just trying to keep him from wandering off what I am saying and trying to change the intent of my post. I do agree with him on some points, but it seems to be like walking a dog on a long leash, tends to wander off a bit. My whole contribution to this thread was to the tragedy and human nature.

I believe there are well documented Saudi influences. I forget the link, google if you are interested.

So the valliant Jihaidst horde ran screaming into the woods like in Monty Pythons Holy Grail.

Run away run away,

When danger reared its ugly head they bravely turned away and fled!

"Panick run, these are men with guns, not children, monks, women teachers with their hands tied behind their backs etc"

Hmmm, shooting people with hands tied behind their backs, isn't that as well one of the well proved tactics of the Thai army, such as in the Kru Sae Mosque incident, or the Ratchaburi hospital incident?

And <deleted> would you do if you get ambushed by a superior force? You would run if you can like anybody else does in such a situation.

Jeesas Christ...

You need to brush up on the Jihad philosophy and psychology.

They are commanded to fight to the death in order to be admitted to heaven and the 71 virgins and all that. True muslims would have died in the gun battle as a matter of principle

What is it then with Tak Bai? Were the suffocated demonstrators legitimate targets, in your opinion, or was Tak Bai a gross human rights violation? Should then, in your opinion, the responsible officers be punished, or is it alright to just send them to inactive posts?

Gross human rights violation. The prosecution should not stop at the officers, although they should bear a heavier burden of the responsibility. Inactive posts are not a suitable punishment.

Here we are in agreement. Note though please that the very reluctant investigation and sad excuse for punishment under Thaksin was not taken up freshly by the present government. The rule that the armed forces tend to protect their own seems to still be valid.

Could be the Tak Bai incident and the failure to punish the responsible officers be partly responsible for the escalation of the conflict?

Only superficially as in giving them an excuse to point at. It is a legitimate grievence, but not an excuse for terrorism.

Good, what about then about a long history of marginalization of the local population, a long history of regular armed uprisings, of which the latest only ended in the '80s? What about consistent refusals of acceptance of the indigenous language - Yawi - as a second official language, as is usual in many areas of the world in areas of ethnic minorities?

I do not excuse violence here, or even support independence for Pattani, but all this is clearly not just "terrorism" but a struggle for independence of a region that previously was an independent state, with an ethnic population that is not Thai. And any solution has to take into account these legitimate grievances as well, and not just label these insurgence as what may be convenient to the arm chair warriors.

So, you have some evidence of popular support, which would seem to be a pre-requisite for your statements? I do not see an armed uprising of the masses, just a lot of thugs with guns. I am a distant observer however, and not only the kill ratio is clearly tipped 3:1 in favour of muslim deaths v. buddhist deaths. They seem to be targetting those who might conceivably support them rather than some nebulous enemy.

And in this particular case, do you think it was responsible to put children into a military bus, which is clearly a legitimate target, or should, as another poster has suggested already, the children be put into a clearly marked civilian bus, and given armed escort?

To date the terrorists have shown a reluctance to hit the military, but have had no qualms about teachers and schools. Looking at past behaviours the odds are better if the attackers think the target may be full of armed troops who may actually fight back.

Excuse me, but to date there were more than a few incidents where the military and armed volonteer organizations were clearly targeted. May i remind you just at the Krue Sae Mosque, where the there hidden insurgents before have attacked military and police posts, in appearant suicide attacks as they were only armed with machetes and a few oldish guns no match to the arms of the security forces. This is also reflected by the high amount of insurgent's death, a whole local football team killed, and reports of the insurgents hidden in the mosque being summarily executed, the commanding officer, Gen. Pallop, having clearly ignored then Defense Minister Chavalit's order to solve the situation via negotiations (and then have a look where the name Gen. Pallop has reapeared in recent times ).

And the many other small incidents where ranger and military patrols came under fire. Even during the latest bombings there was one incident where a military post was attacked and soldiers and insurgents have exchanged fire for several minutes.

I think you are being a bit selective here to support your views, and do not judge the situation based on reality.

Quite interesting to see some people view the Southern situation in one dimensional good versus bad analogies. Nice to know that the modern world can be sorted out in such an easy maner. No doubt all these simplistic "terrorism" problems can be sorted out in about 5 days now that we know how to analyse them. Oh hole on a moment King George has been trying that approach for over six years with no success and a tangible deterioration of the situation world wide not to mention hundreds of thousands of dead.

Historically, the strategy of killing every last one of an enemy (terrorist, insurgent organisation etc) has been a viable solution. Machiavelli went to some lengths to explain this. A modern example is the fact that there are no Palestinian terrorists on the european mainland any more - there are others.

As was pointed out in other threads, the individuals perpetrating these acts are not noted for their intellectual capability, religious

purity or commitment to a greater cause.

Thugs is probably a better word for them.

But hey, what do I know, I avoid war zones and Yala is lime green on my map.

Who am i to judge. I have made many mistakes in my life

Have those mistakes been beheading monks, burning down schools, or killing teachers?

Doesn't seem to matter how vile the actions of terrorists are, there's always someone ready to jump up and be compassionate towards the murderers of innocent people. Nobody is in a situation where they have no choice but to commit terrorism.

I'm certain the terrorists in the south would love to hear how much compassion you have for what they will have to go through psychologicly in years to come. Before they cut your head off they may even say thank you.

Tell me, please, how comfortable is it to view the world in such simple terms of "the good" and "the bad"?

What about Tak Bai, tell me then your views on Tak Bai, and the lack of punishment of the responsible officers?

What about the chain of cause and effect, do these concepts have space in your world view?

Aha - the relativist argument - always a sign of bankruptcy.

Can someone explain to me what the crack is over there in Phuket? I browse this forum now and then, and often find posts about tuk tuk guys kicking of or local Thais going mental for no reason.

Seriously - i realy want to know.

<deleted> is going on over there? I lived in Samui for over two years, we also had a taxi mafia. The difference was, that the only mafia activity they employ is to stick together to ensure none of them use meters. Thats as far as it goes. It would be a cold day in hel_l before a Samui taxi driver so much as shouted at you, let alone beet the fark out of you. Never in my two years there did i hear of one taxi driver getting tasty with anyone. Never.

We also had a proper mafia there - but they had jack <deleted> to do with tourists or ex-pats. Never did i hear a story of mafia bullying bar owners, business etc.

And whats the deal with the references to lady boys over in Phuket? Cant walk on the beach at night and all that? Again, in samui they pester you a little but if you tell them to piss off, they do.

So why is it so crazy over there? They are both simmilar islands - phuket is just bigger. I dont get it.

How many tuk tuk drivers are there in Phuket? Are there so many that the powers that be cant give them a slap now and then when stuff like this happens?

I hope the poor bloke gets well. And to the guys here that have said 'must be more to it', im sorry but thats bang out of order.... a poor bloke got beat to hel_l. He may have gave them a bit of lip but did not deserve 4 blokes battering him.

There are so many TukTuks (not really tuk-tuks actually, they are small. 4 wheeled Diahatsu trucks that are possibly even more uncomfortable to ride in than a real TukTuk - but I digress), around the tourist areas of Phuket, that they are like a plague of locusts.

They are hideously expensive by any reasonable standard. One ride in a TukTuk over anything but a trivial distance would probably pay for bike rental for a week.

The TukTuks are a law unto themselves, they consume vast amounts of street space that they have assigned to themselves, and protect it with a high level og agression. The TukTuk mafia pricing structure "fixed fee plus". They have a monopoly and defend it.

I have not met even one TukTuk driver whodid not have an "attitude". Most of them I have wished to terminate.

So, I avoid the TukTuks on Phuket, because they are expensive and the drivers are aggressive ignorant a-holes, however I mostly avoid them for fear of my life. I ride motor bike taxis in VKK all the time and have had zero problems with them - ever - and they sure do know how to negotiate the traffic. The Phuket TukTuk drivers are maniacs who respect no other user of the roads. Using a TukTuk puts your life, and that of every other road user at risk. Not using them is a benefit to public safety.

I do not go and get drunk anymore, unless I have alternate means of transport home. I like my life too much.

Didn't Samui get taken over by some danish biker gang? It's a few years since I was there last.

Blah Blah Blah Religion Christians Agnostics Conservatives Politicians... I don't like Christians or Conservatives... Agnostics are undercover Christians...Blah Blah Blah

Excuse me, but don't you think you might be a tad off-topic here? Were talking about the brutal murder of two young beautiful Russian girls, in case you didn't notice.

It is generally considered bad form to misquote.

In any case, the topic has become a little repetitive

Some people don't beleive me when I say crime is out of control in Pattaya and Jomtien. I have been in Thailand a long time moved to Jomtien to get away from the crime in Pattaya and now Jomtien is almost as bad. I hope the International press pick up on this so people will know of the dangers that face them by coming here for a holiday. Loosing face is no longer an excuse for Thais or anyone else. I only have 35 days left in Thailand thank God. I will have to stay covert in my condo.

P.S Anyone looking for a condo to rent in Jomtien please PM. me.

Cheers Tony

I have been in Jomtien area since 1999. Yes it is definitely getting violent and ugly. I have moved away now and had need to come into Pattaya in 2nd Road the other night and 2 bar girls and a mamasan dragged me out of my car as I parked it in front of their beer bar. I was actually going across the road. The threw me around a bit and it seemed like there was 6-7 of them within seconds. Not surprisingly the 1,500 baht in my shirt pocket went missing and THEY called the police accusing me as having damaged one of the girl's motorcycles as I parked my car!

No prizes for guessing what happened next eh?? Yep the next day I was compelled to pay for damage on the opposite side of the motorcycle that it should have been if indeed it was parked where they claimed. Oh yeah, that and no corresponding scratch on my car.

Yeah right... this is out of control and I will always always hate Pattaya, and anything to do with it. Sadly Jomtien is infected also now. I hope the Russians report this widely. I hope they stop coming to Pattaya or Jomtien until the police can start stopping these problems rather than being an integral part of it...

Pattaya is the bumho_le of Thailand. Jomtien is the armpits of Thailand. Pathetic places. Tragic about the girls.

The sad truth is this: until the tourists stop coming to these shiteholes.........nothing will change.

20+ golf courses is one reason to visit. Plenty of others I can think off from the top of my head. I never spent an uninteresting or bad day in or around Pattaya.

So, might I suggest that you take your disaffected attitude and self righteousness somewhere else. If you want to know about "shiteholes" I will gladly direct you to some. Pattaya, has it's faults, some of which have and are being addressed. There are IMHO plenty of alternatives in Thailand, some better, some worse, for vacations and for residence - this is a personal, relative judgement. Either way, I still visit Pattaya every time I am in LOS.

Your bombastic value judgements serve no useful purpose. Your fundamental Christian viewpoint also shows and is also irrelevant in this thread - if anywhere.

Now, as for the Russian presence - another issue. Having spent a year in Moscow, and plenty of time in Pattaya, I allow myself to make some observatios.

• Fact: There are plenty of Russians who have the financial capital, and opportunity to take vacations to tropical places.
  
• Fact: Just like the Chinese, English, Irish, German, Japanese ... the Russians would like a Russian restaurant or two in the vicinity, as well as some Russian speaking locals. Not all Russians speak English! Just one more ethnic food to the colourful mix in Pattaya
  
• Fact: Rssian tour operators and other businessmen move in to fill the need.
  
• Fact: The increase in Russian tourists increases the number of resident Russians to meet the language and cultural needs.
  
• Supposition: Organised crime sees a growing market and moves in, build lavish, expensively fitted restaurants etc. as laundries. Legitimate business is identifiable from this style of establishment for the trained eye.
  
• Prediction: The local"crime syndicates" see this as a threat and "turf wars" result.
  

Now, this scenario has played out countless times all over the world. It is playing out in Pattaya now. The only issue is who will win - which group will turn out to be the most brutal, and how many people will die in the crossfire.

In Europe, the eastern europeans are by far the most brutal, and appear to win everywhere, except perhaps Italy.

In Asia, I am not certain that the local forces are without the ability to defend themselves, and they have cultural position and "the law" on their side.

I have left out the issue of Russian prostitutes, since I do not understand their market in Thailand. There would historically appear to be a clear link to organised crime and prostitution, so it is probably in the mix. Protection rackets etc. The two deaths that started this thread may be related.

No matter what, this tragic event may have some repercussions for Pattaya and Thailand's tourist industry - though the list of dead tourists keeps growing, and the number of tourists keeps increasing - so I could be wrong there.

If these two girls were indeed tourists, shot by a chair operator (which I think reasonably unlikely, but clearly with a probability greater than zero) then I will be personally surprised.

Dr. Dweeb.

Don't quit yer day job Dr. Dweeb......you have failed as a detective........I'm agnostic.

As far as Pattay being a shiit_hole.....compared with the rest of Thailand.......it clearly is for anyone with an open mind. Of course there are many, many worse places in the world. But this is a Thailand forum and the reference point is Thailand.....not the world.

Many murders take place in Pattaya/Jomtien area......the crown jewels of this lovely country.

Declared agnostocism is independent of the moral code to which you subscribe. You would be surprised how many "declared agnostics" have quite conservative christian religious viewpoints and are blissfully unaware of the connection, or why. In any case, read my subsequent post.

I may have misread my own post, but I do not believe I referenced the world. Please read what I wrote, not what you think I wrote.

There are many murders in Thailand, generally. There are other threads on this subject. I am not aware that Pattaya/Jomtien is specifically worse in this regard generally, or specifically with respect to falang victims. Anyone who has any fact is welcome to chime in.

I have just re-read your post. Your general rant about Pattaya included a "tragic about the girls" which I read to mean "the girls" in general (something we hear constantly from do-gooders) as distinct from 'the Russian girls' which are the subject of this thread. Had you been more specific I may not have misinterpreted your sentence.

nuff said on this now.

Some people don't beleive me when I say crime is out of control in Pattaya and Jomtien. I have been in Thailand a long time moved to Jomtien to get away from the crime in Pattaya and now Jomtien is almost as bad. I hope the International press pick up on this so people will know of the dangers that face them by coming here for a holiday. Loosing face is no longer an excuse for Thais or anyone else. I only have 35 days left in Thailand thank God. I will have to stay covert in my condo.

P.S Anyone looking for a condo to rent in Jomtien please PM. me.

Cheers Tony

I have been in Jomtien area since 1999. Yes it is definitely getting violent and ugly. I have moved away now and had need to come into Pattaya in 2nd Road the other night and 2 bar girls and a mamasan dragged me out of my car as I parked it in front of their beer bar. I was actually going across the road. The threw me around a bit and it seemed like there was 6-7 of them within seconds. Not surprisingly the 1,500 baht in my shirt pocket went missing and THEY called the police accusing me as having damaged one of the girl's motorcycles as I parked my car!

No prizes for guessing what happened next eh?? Yep the next day I was compelled to pay for damage on the opposite side of the motorcycle that it should have been if indeed it was parked where they claimed. Oh yeah, that and no corresponding scratch on my car.

Yeah right... this is out of control and I will always always hate Pattaya, and anything to do with it. Sadly Jomtien is infected also now. I hope the Russians report this widely. I hope they stop coming to Pattaya or Jomtien until the police can start stopping these problems rather than being an integral part of it...

Pattaya is the bumho_le of Thailand. Jomtien is the armpits of Thailand. Pathetic places. Tragic about the girls.

The sad truth is this: until the tourists stop coming to these shiteholes.........nothing will change.

20+ golf courses is one reason to visit. Plenty of others I can think off from the top of my head. I never spent an uninteresting or bad day in or around Pattaya.

So, might I suggest that you take your disaffected attitude and self righteousness somewhere else. If you want to know about "shiteholes" I will gladly direct you to some. Pattaya, has it's faults, some of which have and are being addressed. There are IMHO plenty of alternatives in Thailand, some better, some worse, for vacations and for residence - this is a personal, relative judgement. Either way, I still visit Pattaya every time I am in LOS.

Your bombastic value judgements serve no useful purpose. Your fundamental Christian viewpoint also shows and is also irrelevant in this thread - if anywhere.

Now, as for the Russian presence - another issue. Having spent a year in Moscow, and plenty of time in Pattaya, I allow myself to make some observatios.

• Fact: There are plenty of Russians who have the financial capital, and opportunity to take vacations to tropical places.
  
• Fact: Just like the Chinese, English, Irish, German, Japanese ... the Russians would like a Russian restaurant or two in the vicinity, as well as some Russian speaking locals. Not all Russians speak English! Just one more ethnic food to the colourful mix in Pattaya
  
• Fact: Rssian tour operators and other businessmen move in to fill the need.
  
• Fact: The increase in Russian tourists increases the number of resident Russians to meet the language and cultural needs.
  
• Supposition: Organised crime sees a growing market and moves in, build lavish, expensively fitted restaurants etc. as laundries. Legitimate business is identifiable from this style of establishment for the trained eye.
  
• Prediction: The local"crime syndicates" see this as a threat and "turf wars" result.
  

Now, this scenario has played out countless times all over the world. It is playing out in Pattaya now. The only issue is who will win - which group will turn out to be the most brutal, and how many people will die in the crossfire.

In Europe, the eastern europeans are by far the most brutal, and appear to win everywhere, except perhaps Italy.

In Asia, I am not certain that the local forces are without the ability to defend themselves, and they have cultural position and "the law" on their side.

I have left out the issue of Russian prostitutes, since I do not understand their market in Thailand. There would historically appear to be a clear link to organised crime and prostitution, so it is probably in the mix. Protection rackets etc. The two deaths that started this thread may be related.

No matter what, this tragic event may have some repercussions for Pattaya and Thailand's tourist industry - though the list of dead tourists keeps growing, and the number of tourists keeps increasing - so I could be wrong there.

If these two girls were indeed tourists, shot by a chair operator (which I think reasonably unlikely, but clearly with a probability greater than zero) then I will be personally surprised.

Dr. Dweeb.

Don't quit yer day job Dr. Dweeb......you have failed as a detective........I'm agnostic.

As far as Pattay being a shiit_hole.....compared with the rest of Thailand.......it clearly is for anyone with an open mind. Of course there are many, many worse places in the world. But this is a Thailand forum and the reference point is Thailand.....not the world.

Many murders take place in Pattaya/Jomtien area......the crown jewels of this lovely country.

Declared agnostocism is independent of the moral code to which you subscribe. You would be surprised how many "declared agnostics" have quite conservative christian religious viewpoints and are blissfully unaware of the connection, or why. In any case, read my subsequent post.

I may have misread my own post, but I do not believe I referenced the world. Please read what I wrote, not what you think I wrote.

There are many murders in Thailand, generally. There are other threads on this subject. I am not aware that Pattaya/Jomtien is specifically worse in this regard generally, or specifically with respect to falang victims. Anyone who has any fact is welcome to chime in.

"The victims, Miss Svirkova Liubov aged 25 and her friend Miss Tsimfer Tatiana aged 30, both Russian nationals, were in their beach clothes, and had been relaxing on the beach in the early morning. Both were shot with a 9mm pistol. Miss Liubov received 4 bullets, one in her left arm and three in her abdomen, Miss Tatiana received one in the back, both were shot at close range. Items on their table included a mobile phone, a pack of cigarettes, and two small bottles of Thai whisky; footprints showed the gunman had been wearing combat type shoes."

Supposition no. 1 million...

the bullet in miss Liubovs arm is the same one that killed Miss tatiana...a "through and through" as we CSI's call it(well,I WATCH csi,so surely that qualifies me to make half assed assumptions..

Apart from that,the scene looks really staged...by the killer(s)?.or the BiB? who knows,its a ropy situation though...started out looking fairly clean cut.

Now its like a can of worms with muddy water as sauce.

Did I observe a leg wound as well ?

Was one of the girls an earlier recipient of a straight left ?

Btw. dragging bodies is hard (and messy) work, and it would be next to impossible to cover it up on a sandy location by other than tidal means

Dweeb

Follow the dosh and I think this is where you will find the killer. Holiday paid/arranged by someone in thailand.

Something else is unusual - ok watching the sunrise, wouldnt you face the water rather than the side for a better view?

Or face East ?

Dweeb

Some people don't beleive me when I say crime is out of control in Pattaya and Jomtien. I have been in Thailand a long time moved to Jomtien to get away from the crime in Pattaya and now Jomtien is almost as bad. I hope the International press pick up on this so people will know of the dangers that face them by coming here for a holiday. Loosing face is no longer an excuse for Thais or anyone else. I only have 35 days left in Thailand thank God. I will have to stay covert in my condo.

P.S Anyone looking for a condo to rent in Jomtien please PM. me.

Cheers Tony

I have been in Jomtien area since 1999. Yes it is definitely getting violent and ugly. I have moved away now and had need to come into Pattaya in 2nd Road the other night and 2 bar girls and a mamasan dragged me out of my car as I parked it in front of their beer bar. I was actually going across the road. The threw me around a bit and it seemed like there was 6-7 of them within seconds. Not surprisingly the 1,500 baht in my shirt pocket went missing and THEY called the police accusing me as having damaged one of the girl's motorcycles as I parked my car!

No prizes for guessing what happened next eh?? Yep the next day I was compelled to pay for damage on the opposite side of the motorcycle that it should have been if indeed it was parked where they claimed. Oh yeah, that and no corresponding scratch on my car.

Yeah right... this is out of control and I will always always hate Pattaya, and anything to do with it. Sadly Jomtien is infected also now. I hope the Russians report this widely. I hope they stop coming to Pattaya or Jomtien until the police can start stopping these problems rather than being an integral part of it...

Pattaya is the bumho_le of Thailand. Jomtien is the armpits of Thailand. Pathetic places. Tragic about the girls.

The sad truth is this: until the tourists stop coming to these shiteholes.........nothing will change.

20+ golf courses is one reason to visit. Plenty of others I can think off from the top of my head. I never spent an uninteresting or bad day in or around Pattaya.

So, might I suggest that you take your disaffected attitude and self righteousness somewhere else. If you want to know about "shiteholes" I will gladly direct you to some. Pattaya, has it's faults, some of which have and are being addressed. There are IMHO plenty of alternatives in Thailand, some better, some worse, for vacations and for residence - this is a personal, relative judgement. Either way, I still visit Pattaya every time I am in LOS.

Your bombastic value judgements serve no useful purpose. Your fundamental Christian viewpoint also shows and is also irrelevant in this thread - if anywhere.

Now, as for the Russian presence - another issue. Having spent a year in Moscow, and plenty of time in Pattaya, I allow myself to make some observatios.

• Fact: There are plenty of Russians who have the financial capital, and opportunity to take vacations to tropical places.
  
• Fact: Just like the Chinese, English, Irish, German, Japanese ... the Russians would like a Russian restaurant or two in the vicinity, as well as some Russian speaking locals. Not all Russians speak English! Just one more ethnic food to the colourful mix in Pattaya
  
• Fact: Rssian tour operators and other businessmen move in to fill the need.
  
• Fact: The increase in Russian tourists increases the number of resident Russians to meet the language and cultural needs.
  
• Supposition: Organised crime sees a growing market and moves in, build lavish, expensively fitted restaurants etc. as laundries. Legitimate business is identifiable from this style of establishment for the trained eye.
  
• Prediction: The local"crime syndicates" see this as a threat and "turf wars" result.
  

Now, this scenario has played out countless times all over the world. It is playing out in Pattaya now. The only issue is who will win - which group will turn out to be the most brutal, and how many people will die in the crossfire.

In Europe, the eastern europeans are by far the most brutal, and appear to win everywhere, except perhaps Italy.

In Asia, I am not certain that the local forces are without the ability to defend themselves, and they have cultural position and "the law" on their side.

I have left out the issue of Russian prostitutes, since I do not understand their market in Thailand. There would historically appear to be a clear link to organised crime and prostitution, so it is probably in the mix. Protection rackets etc. The two deaths that started this thread may be related.

No matter what, this tragic event may have some repercussions for Pattaya and Thailand's tourist industry - though the list of dead tourists keeps growing, and the number of tourists keeps increasing - so I could be wrong there.

If these two girls were indeed tourists, shot by a chair operator (which I think reasonably unlikely, but clearly with a probability greater than zero) then I will be personally surprised.

Dr. Dweeb.

WOW!

Just because one poster makes a reference "Thank God" A very common phrase in the English language . Don't see how that equates to fundamental Christian Values.

Understandable given the near hundred year history of state sponsored Atheism in Russia.

LL

It was his platitude about "tragic girls" which is a standard phrase used by the christian moralists to describe all and every unchaste girl not in wedlock that invoked my ire. I have a problem with religious fundamentalism being applied in cultures built on different precepts.

Perhaps I was a little hasty, but I will wager that the "tragic" part in the posters mind is that there are "prostitutes", which offends his christian based sensibilities and teachings.

I hereby retract my interpretation of the poster's comment on this specific point. I have not, however altered my judgement.

cheers

Dweeb

It amazes me how some long-time farangs living in Thailand still don't understand that "face" is very important to many Thais. I think these girls caused the chair vendor to lose face EARLIER in the evening. He obtained a gun, perhaps his own or borrowed; and came back and shot them when very few other people were around.

Remember the traffic cop in Chiang Mai a couple of years ago? In the early morning hours (around 8am if memory is correct) a Thai driver yelled at him causing him to lose face. He promptly shot the driver, driver's wife, young teenager (girl) riding with them (she was on her knees begging not to be shot), and then he shot himself. Four dead in a few seconds over a loss of "face". Yet many posters on this forum poo-poo face as if it doesn't exist.

That is so sad. That story had far more emotional impact than my initial reading of the story behind this thread. I am contemplating as to why this might be so.

Anyway, it happens not just in Thailand. When people snap, it is best if they are not carrying percussion side arms, that is for certain. "Face" in Thailand, same thing different name somewhere else.

Dweeb.

2 All:

Just try to judge this case without prejudice to Russians. Average Russian is much more honest and intelligent than avarage farang in Pattaya.

No one is making sweeping generalizations that all Russians are bad, on the contrary, most Russians I've met are happy, jovial people and are very easy to get along with. It's just a known fact that the Russian mafia is operating in the area and there are many Russian prostitutes operating in the area as well.

The women may not have been prostitutes at all, but this angle can not be ignored when trying to determine who the assailant or assailants were.

Not all Italians are members of the Mob!

Nobody has mentioned that as many as 50% of the Russian Mafia are Jewish to include at least 3 of the major crime bosses.

Dammit. I thought we were going to get to "Thread closed" without blaming the "Jews".

Oh well, hope springs eternal as they say, though sometimes I fail to see why.

Anyway, the religious affiliation of the heads of the russian OC families is interesting, but highly irrelevant I think. Can you explain why it should be even mildly relevant to the discussion at hand?

Dweeb.

I am a bit curious how one of these girls, who were both facing forward sitting in beach chairs, was shot in the back.

Yes, I noticed the entry wound. Is the a hole in the beach chair to correspond to the injury?

Dweeb

As Russian women expert , I can say that some of them make-up when they go to the beach.

Lol!!

You should see them turn up to the fitness centre in full battle gear, Chanel headbands, Versace T-Shirts, you name it !

You more or less have to see it to believe it - and I have seen it.

Dweeb

Two killed young women deserves far more respect than generally shown in this forum. The FACTS states that they were merely tourists on a two-week group-holiday, and they resided in a tourist-hotel only 100m away from the shooting-incident.

My sincere condolence to their family!

Russia - especially in this time of year - is not very warm or cozy, and if you were Russian on a two-week holiday in a tropical country, you also just might want to spend your time on the beach with a friend and some beverage - even at 5 a.m. in the morning. Maybe especially at 5 a.m. in the morning, as you'll almost have the beach for yourself, and it is even quite possible to have a swim at that time.

Many Thais - regardless of status and income - do own a gun! I've surely seen my share of them, and you don't even have to be in Jomtien or Pattaya. Men (locals) who are staying up (in the streets) to 5 a.m. are almost for sure drunk or up to no good, even in my country (Denmark). And if two Russian ladies have been given a drunken beach chair concessionaire a hard time, perhaps laughing at his (to them!) utter ridiculous demands for rent in the middle of the night, he could very easily have been worked up to a level where he'd grab his motorcycle, drive home and get his gun to show those farang b****s... It's my impression, that Russians aren't very popular in the Pattaya area - and if he thought, that those bad-mouthed women, who "helped themselves" with HIS chairs and refused to pay for the privilege, were nothing but unwelcome shameless prostitutes - then he might even had thought that he was both righteous AND could get away with it... The police initially also thought the girls were prostitutes, and it was a mafia-hit. The FACT also is that a beach chair concessionaire didn't show up for work after the incident, and is now wanted for questioning by the local police.

But all above is also just speculations - showing off my own particular prejudice and urge to compare the case-facts presented, to my personal experiences and gut-feel.... Please regard my speculations as such, and I'd be the last to be offended if you just ignore them.

So, here's my opinion: before going around slandering ppl one don't know, it would be prudent to evaluate the facts presented for one in advance. And one might not have look so stupid and shameful, as one must do now.... Keep your prejudicial racist mouth shut if you haven't got anything good to say. Why not "grow up and get a life" before blatantly trying to destroy others?!? This is IMHO the problem of the world; everyone has an opinion about everything, and a strong urge to show it off - no matter what. Where's the humility and decency of for example just saying: what a tragic incident, I hope that the police find out who has done it and why, so that they might better prevent anything similar happening in the future. No, it's far better to stir up even more fear and hatred, with absolutely NO facts or even a thread of evidence to back it up... <sigh>

//Loke

**post removed --english only per forum rules***

Dr. Dweeb

Some people don't beleive me when I say crime is out of control in Pattaya and Jomtien. I have been in Thailand a long time moved to Jomtien to get away from the crime in Pattaya and now Jomtien is almost as bad. I hope the International press pick up on this so people will know of the dangers that face them by coming here for a holiday. Loosing face is no longer an excuse for Thais or anyone else. I only have 35 days left in Thailand thank God. I will have to stay covert in my condo.

P.S Anyone looking for a condo to rent in Jomtien please PM. me.

Cheers Tony

I have been in Jomtien area since 1999. Yes it is definitely getting violent and ugly. I have moved away now and had need to come into Pattaya in 2nd Road the other night and 2 bar girls and a mamasan dragged me out of my car as I parked it in front of their beer bar. I was actually going across the road. The threw me around a bit and it seemed like there was 6-7 of them within seconds. Not surprisingly the 1,500 baht in my shirt pocket went missing and THEY called the police accusing me as having damaged one of the girl's motorcycles as I parked my car!

No prizes for guessing what happened next eh?? Yep the next day I was compelled to pay for damage on the opposite side of the motorcycle that it should have been if indeed it was parked where they claimed. Oh yeah, that and no corresponding scratch on my car.

Yeah right... this is out of control and I will always always hate Pattaya, and anything to do with it. Sadly Jomtien is infected also now. I hope the Russians report this widely. I hope they stop coming to Pattaya or Jomtien until the police can start stopping these problems rather than being an integral part of it...

Pattaya is the bumho_le of Thailand. Jomtien is the armpits of Thailand. Pathetic places. Tragic about the girls.

The sad truth is this: until the tourists stop coming to these shiteholes.........nothing will change.

20+ golf courses is one reason to visit. Plenty of others I can think off from the top of my head. I never spent an uninteresting or bad day in or around Pattaya.

So, might I suggest that you take your disaffected attitude and self righteousness somewhere else. If you want to know about "shiteholes" I will gladly direct you to some. Pattaya, has it's faults, some of which have and are being addressed. There are IMHO plenty of alternatives in Thailand, some better, some worse, for vacations and for residence - this is a personal, relative judgement. Either way, I still visit Pattaya every time I am in LOS.

Your bombastic value judgements serve no useful purpose. Your fundamental Christian viewpoint also shows and is also irrelevant in this thread - if anywhere.

Now, as for the Russian presence - another issue. Having spent a year in Moscow, and plenty of time in Pattaya, I allow myself to make some observatios.

• Fact: There are plenty of Russians who have the financial capital, and opportunity to take vacations to tropical places.
  
• Fact: Just like the Chinese, English, Irish, German, Japanese ... the Russians would like a Russian restaurant or two in the vicinity, as well as some Russian speaking locals. Not all Russians speak English! Just one more ethnic food to the colourful mix in Pattaya
  
• Fact: Rssian tour operators and other businessmen move in to fill the need.
  
• Fact: The increase in Russian tourists increases the number of resident Russians to meet the language and cultural needs.
  
• Supposition: Organised crime sees a growing market and moves in, build lavish, expensively fitted restaurants etc. as laundries. Legitimate business is identifiable from this style of establishment for the trained eye.
  
• Prediction: The local"crime syndicates" see this as a threat and "turf wars" result.
  

Now, this scenario has played out countless times all over the world. It is playing out in Pattaya now. The only issue is who will win - which group will turn out to be the most brutal, and how many people will die in the crossfire.

In Europe, the eastern europeans are by far the most brutal, and appear to win everywhere, except perhaps Italy.

In Asia, I am not certain that the local forces are without the ability to defend themselves, and they have cultural position and "the law" on their side.

I have left out the issue of Russian prostitutes, since I do not understand their market in Thailand. There would historically appear to be a clear link to organised crime and prostitution, so it is probably in the mix. Protection rackets etc. The two deaths that started this thread may be related.

No matter what, this tragic event may have some repercussions for Pattaya and Thailand's tourist industry - though the list of dead tourists keeps growing, and the number of tourists keeps increasing - so I could be wrong there.

If these two girls were indeed tourists, shot by a chair operator (which I think reasonably unlikely, but clearly with a probability greater than zero) then I will be personally surprised.

Dr. Dweeb.

I work in Saudi Arabia "home of the two holy mosques" and don't see the same problems maybe all the extremeist have moved out

You're probably right. Also the Saudi government did a pretty good job the last couple of years and arrested/killed a lot of extremists.

FYI: The government of Saudi Arabia (a country noted for its stong secular traditions) has created a diplomatic incident for comments made by parliament member in Holland. Iran, that other bastion of liberal thinking, rational behaviour and beacon of human rights, has "joined the choir" http://www.alertnet.org/thenews/newsdesk/L2129370.htm

Apologies beforehand to the wiki haters but I just read this:

"A civil war is a war in which parties within the same culture, society or nationality fight against each other for the control of political power. Political scientists use two criteria: the warring groups must be from the same country and fighting for control of the political center, control over a separatist state or to force a major change in policy. The second criterion is that at least 1,000 people must have been killed in total, with at least 100 from each side."

source:wikipedia

Isn't this already a civil war?

If it isn't, what needs to happen to escalate it to that level?

Last time I looked, the muslim/buddhist kill ratio of attacks instigated by the insurgents/terrorists/freedom fighters/thugs/criminals (choose your noun) was in fact 3:1.

That, and the fact that any Muslim insurgency group that bombs the Thai Islamic Bank as part of their separatist war against Thailand & Buddhism, has clearly demonstrated it's intellectual level.

Sadly, without a theological reformation in Islam, the brief period of enlightenment and prosperity enjoyed by humanity will be shortlived, and another 1000 years of barbarism await our descendents - should there actually be any descendents and humanity actually survives the ragnarok that must follow as a logical necessity from the events and plans already in motion.

IIRC the "ceiling" of glass is actually covered largely by a sail material, which is more than likely flammable, and would fall on people, who are also flammable, as is the stock of King Power, and most of the commercial structures.

If it catches fire, especially a blaze sourced in the departure commercial area (a very likely starting point) there will be a conflagration - do not doubt this for a second.

The reason why nothing gets ever done properly in this country is this culture of "KRENG JAI" (hey, even 2 major universities here in Thailand have written reports on this perpetual hindrance of progress). It's all fine and dandy to take other people's position in to account/consideration, but it should never stand in the way of national progress. Then again, that's the nail on the proverbial head, I guess: not a soul in this, or any other Thai government from the past for that matter, has ever been interested in anything but his/her own pockets. Keep the people uneducated and maintain and control situations that cause fear and confusion (South, border with Burma, disappearing of pro-democracy people, etc.) and you're set for a comfy ride into wealth.................

This tactic has/was employed by the major religions for 1000-1500 years and is ongoing. The tactic is employed because it works. Deja vu all over again.

Dweeb

Wow - I made a post yesterday in my usual style and it generated zero responses. I must be losing my touch

Dweeb