way2muchcoffee

Spot on... election the only answer - every thinking person knows it.

Why? What will an election solve?

Case 1 - PTP wins and forms coalition government. They continue taking orders from Thaksin. They assign cabinet roles from their stellar list. They then revert to the 1997 constitution. The next step is to whitewash Thaksin of his crimes. This is closely followed by lifting the ban on TRT and PPP politicians. Coalition parties benefit from the move. PAD comes out to the streets. Eventually a military coup occurs. This sets up the conditions required to ignite a civil war.

Case 2 - PTP wins and can't form a coalition again. Dems form a coalition government. PTP and redshirts return to the street. They claim that they had the most votes and the electorate is disenfranchised. Much wailing an gnashing of teeth occurs. The rural poor are incited to riot. Violence ensues. Military reacts and people are injured. This sets up the conditions required to ignite a civil war.

Case 3 - Dems win by a slim margin and form a coalition government. PTP and redshirts return to the street.... possible civil war.

The way I see it there are only two ways to avoid major problems:

1) The redshirts abandon Thaksin

2) Thaksin is allowed to return as PM

I never claimed to be mature. So yah boo sucks to you with knobs on!

I have no idea what the above means. I will assume it was an admission followed by a compliment!

Isn't it a pity that certain other members with his stance didn't follow his exemplary example rather than showing a maturity that would embarrass a 6 year old.

You sound more like my mate's Jewish granny when we started play fighting and causing a commotion when we were kids.

Rich VS Poor? Some might see it that way. But the broader movement of PAD actually see it as Corruption Vs Ethical behaviour in Gov't. What gets up wifey's nose is throwing money at the poor without a sustainable plan. Much like the Rudd Labour Gov't in Australia has done.

What gets up wifey's nose is that the PAD recently stated (by the mouth of Sondhi) on their ASTV that if anyone of the PPP, Thai Rak Thai, or any RED (read: "poor uneducated farmer") for that matter wouldbe elected in the government, they would go back on the streets and take again the Government house and the airport.

Forget what the PAD did and go on?

The PAD is still soliciting unrest just like the RED"s, but nobody cares about that.

I don't believe this to be true. I don't think the PAD will renew mass protests if the PTP comes to power and governs properly. The PAD will only come out if the PTP comes to power and then attempts to whitewash Thaksin of his crimes, or if they act as a proxy government following his wishes. This scenario will definitely see the PAD out in the streets. It would also likely result in another military coup, which could in turn result in civil war.

Perfectly rational to correct an error of not calling for an election after the court essentially declared no confidence vote which would have required an election be held.

Let me re-iterate that name calling does not help resolve any problem. Rational negotiation between different opinions to find a workable solution is required.

Don't be part of the Problem! Be part of a Solution!

If a new election was called after dissolution of the PPP and the Dems were able to form a coalition we would still be in exactly the position we are in today. The redshirts would have cried judicial coup, and the Dems would face criticism for not allowing the newly formed PTP to try to form a coalition government.

Allowing the PTP to attempt to form a coalition government was seen as the only fair approach insofar as they were the controlling party under PPP. Only the executives of PPP were banned, not the rank and file. All of the PTP members were elected MPs and they deserved a chance to form a coalition government.

Had the PTP been able to form the government with coalition partners then we would not be in the situation. They would not be crying foul now. The only reason the are crying now is because they failed in their attempt and the Dems are now in control.

Thanks for the links.

It is quite interesting to compare the reds' with the yellows' demonstrations in the past.

On the surface they appear very much the same, of course aimed in different directions, but as my family pointed out the reds appear to use a lot of foul language (bad words as my son said) compared to the yellows in the past.

opalhort

Oh, I think you'll find that the yellow shirts didn't mince words much and there were some downright obscene comments coming from their stages.

Not to mention that the poor themselves work very hard to keep themselves undereducated and 'under financed.' Is that a bottle or lotto ticket in your hand? Something with an engine that you can't afford but are financed to the hilt for in your dirt driveway? Playing a bit too much 'karma lotto' at the temple with funds/resources that are better kept for your own family? Sitting on your rear/napping instead of working? If so, hopefully you aren't going to blame the controlling minority for your decision(s) (and likely generation upon generation of poor decision making) for stunting your and your family's forward progress.

Work ethic, ability to handle money, responsibility ... these are not genetic predispositions, they are learned behaviors. Poor people are often notoriously bad with money when they get some. I think its sad that a few thousand baht is seen as a windfall to be enjoyed instead of a typical event to be handled with moderation. Perhaps they know too well that it is special event so you might as well make a big night of it.

Alcoholism, drug addiction and other serious social problems do seem to be widespread, but experiences before the age of 10 or so often define a person's life. If daddy's a drunk and beats up on mommy, the kid might try as hard as he can to move well beyond that later in life, but there is a very good chance he will have personality problems.

It's a vicious cycle, but in the end, people do need to take responsibility for their own actions and break the chain. Some can do it, many cannot.

Still, that in no way justifies systemic and cruel disregard for the poor who make up the majority of the people. Especially when it's in the interests of the overclass to keep them as vulnerable as possible -- so much easier to exploit them that way.

No, I don't blame the poor entirely for their own condition, but that's a safe way for their masters to feel. Same kind of things were said about the black slaves in America. Until there are truly equal opportunities -- or at least reasonable ones -- this condescending talk about lazy people is rubbish.

You want to give it a try, Heng? Start out in the ricefield with only a bicycle for transportation and a crap school system, corrupt officials, teachers and cops? Perhaps you can show us how it's done.

A fair and balanced response.

I've worked almost non-stop since I was 9 years old, beginning with mowing lawns, then moving on to paperboy, dishwasher, fast food, etc etc etc. I now work 60-70 hours per week. Yes I have privileges, but I also have worked hard for them, consistently and tirelessly for some 30 years. In truth it was my mother who taught be to work hard, play fair, and have compassion for others.

There are opportunities in Thailand for the poor. They need only take advantage of them. Many have. Many have not. Most won't become wealthy, but then neither will I. I agree that there are a distinct lack of role models for many folks in this country. The cycle persists.

Whether or not he should be arrested is of less concern than the timing of the arrest. This is really not the best time to arrest him. Last week would have been good, next week might work well to. Right now, it will likely only fuel the fires of discontent.

That's a fair point. But it is also fair to suggest that allowing him to remain and further incite violence over the next day or two is equally irresponsible.

Has anyone seen the Bangkok Post article today showing that soldiers are being paid an additional 300 Baht on top of their salary for every day they spend on the streets against the protests? How is that any different?

Have you never heard of hazardous duty pay? It is given to soldiers assigned to the south as well. Not sure the exact daily figure, but hazardous duty pay is pretty standard around the world.

ohh, boi.

if i am not falling for the propaganda of this government or into an imbecile hate rhetoric towards the red shirt doesn't mean that i am the red shirt spokesman.

Guess that means you can't answer some objective questions. I'm not siding with anyone, but I'd also like to know:

what are the visions of the red shirts?

what's the strategies to accomplish it?

who's the person to lead it?

Over to you, Mazeltov....

oohh, boi2

as i said hence i am not the red shirt spokesman, why should i answer the question here and now?

But that is exactly the problem. Nobody, and I mean not one single red shirt supporter, leader, spokesperson, or other redshirt affiliated individual has ever bothered to address any of these questions. It is for this reason that many people can't accept their claims to be a democracy movement.

Unfortunately, there is a deeply entrenched controlling minority who work very hard to keep the masses undereducated. It is their main means of control. This control will not be surrendered without a fight.

Not to mention that the poor themselves work very hard to keep themselves undereducated and 'under financed.' Is that a bottle or lotto ticket in your hand? Something with an engine that you can't afford but are financed to the hilt for in your dirt driveway? Playing a bit too much 'karma lotto' at the temple with funds/resources that are better kept for your own family? Sitting on your rear/napping instead of working? If so, hopefully you aren't going to blame the controlling minority for your decision(s) (and likely generation upon generation of poor decision making) for stunting your and your family's forward progress.

Thanks for that Heng.

To be sure there are many hard working rural Thais. Whenever I go the village however I don't see them. I see people who work a half day and call it quits. Start a job for a few days, get the pay, get drunk, and don't show up for a week and by then someone else is doing their job. I see people earning 4500 bt per month but spending 3000 on whiskey, drinking every day. I see fathers at 45 years old who have retired and live off the wages of their 20 year old daughters. I see the drug dealers with the flashy new motorcycle. I see dirty kids running around without any kind of parental supervision, while mom is over at the neighbor's house playing hi-low. I see the parade of people coming by to try to get me to pay for alcohol for them. I see able-bodied men lounging around on hammocks waiting around for the harvest that won't be ready for another 14 weeks. Perhaps this is because most of the people left in the village are the wasters who aren't off in BKK or the local amphur muang working to support their families. I'm not sure. But the levels of alcoholism, gambling, sloth, and laziness I see whenever we head up to the village is very disturbing.

On the other hand there are the small business owners, tuk tuk drivers, and other assorted laborers who do work hard, and they more or less end up taking care of everyone else in the village, along with what gets sent back from those working in the city. In the city I see people working, scraping by, and basically being shat on by wealthier Thais. It is these groups of people that both need and deserve a leg up.

animatic........ for all it's worth, for as bitter and hateful of Thaksin as you are, can you for one moment understand why the up-country poor love him so much.

I ask this, and not for a response of verbal defense of your position, but just for once can you empathize, and see the point from their perspective. If so, can you maturely consider what is would be like to be on the red side of the fence.

I for one think Thaksin was corrupt. It was policy corruption at it's worst, but for me it was his sisters and wives family who had their breaches on and heads in the oats more than his direct family. That aside, I feel the average Thai was not done justice by the amataya driving Thaksin out, and not letting the electorate do so. At the same time Thailand has not had a clean government since the Constitutional Monarchy started, and still doesn't. Is it the eventual solution or should the masses be more honest with themselves and introduce a new form of government?

My maid just left the room after saying she wished she could go to Bangkok, but didn't have any red shits and new that "Nai" would not approve of her absence. We discussed her view.

Since you are the most prolific anti Thaksin poster, do you, or can you empathizes with common red supporting Thai's?

It is not easy to empathize with the rural poor in their defense of Thaksin. It is easy to sympathize with them though. They have been duped. It is tragic and sad. They really do deserve a better shake in life. My wife and her family are among the rural poor. My wife understands the situation well, but most of her family and friends do not. Many of them even refuse to believe that Thaksin committed a single crime or engaged in any form of corruption. This, despite some of them taking his money for their vote. Any talk of this nature causes arguments between family and friends so they no longer discuss politics much, at least not when my wife is around.

A lot of people attending the rally are doing so because they believe in it. There are also people being paid to attend. This stuff is organised by different groups. The UDD have their following and most are loyal and committed but a few are boosted by money. The PTP MPs are old style feudal barons and do things the old way. Their supporters are used to turning out in return for rewards. Considering these MPs are going to have theri littel scam with the rice pledging wiped out if this government continues anything these affected MPs pay is not lost if they are succesful.

My Thai wife says ALL parties pay money to buy votes and the farmers are clever enough to pocket the money they get for free, but that people still vote following their conviction.

Really? My wife says that one or two of her family members did not vote TRT back in the day. After the election, over alcohol, the information came out. That year all of the roads in the village were paved, except for the 50 meter stretch in front of my wife's family property. This was the consequence of voting their conviction.

Taking 500 bt/day with all expenses covered says it all. Most of these demonstrators could easily afford to come on their own dime. All they would need to do is cut out the alcohol for a month or make some other suitable sacrifice in the case of non-drinkers. They have had plenty of time to save up a few hundred baht to make the trip. This million man march hasn't been a secret. If the demonstrators cared passionately about the cause they would come for free and would actually refuse the money as an insult to the cause.

I mean the suppression of the PPP political campaign in the 2007 election, which was ordered by the CNS -- and revealed at the time in their internal memo, which was subsequently leaked --check the facts !

You are making the claim. Post the facts.

Al Capone bought the whole Police department, the town council and two local judges of a town outside Chicago - was that town's administration legal?

It is an entirely fair comparison unless you consider buying a police department. a , town council and two judges superior to buying Government which controls all Police Departments in the country and justice/democracy (or the lack of it) for all.

Excellent posts Termad. You have clearly and succinctly outlined some of the primary arguments in support of the 2006 coup.

We might as well line up all those who have the occasional beer, or glass of wine or scotch as well. Freakin' drug addicts. Scum of the Earth. Kill 'em all.

the yellows got what they wanted my mass protest and closing down an airport.is it any wonder why the reds think they can get what tey want by doing the same thing.

surely if one party does something bad they should be punished the same as the other party.

this is why all this stuff is happening. i ahve no problems with the yellows complaints just have a problem with the way they done it and the way they got results. now the other side will copy and it will go on and on and on.

remember i am just a forang with no voting voice or power so what i say does not make any difference to thai peoples pollitics

Yes. Closing the airport was a huge mistake by the PAD.

Shutting down BKK will be a similarly huge mistake by the UDD, especially if they are found to instigate violence.

It is unconscionable for a red shirt supporter to decry the airport closure and at the same time engage in similar disruptive and harmful acts.

There is of course the distinct possibility that the red shirts themselves will dress up a group of thugs as soldiers and have them violently attack a few monks, women, children, and elderly people in order to provoke widespread public outrage against the government.

Ya no Thai and I mean NO thai man would ever pay a dime of sin sod for a previously married women and it would GREATLY insult the thai husband to be if it was mentioned.

That is simply not true. I personally know of a woman who has been married three times to Thai men. The most recent wedding was last year. She elicited sin sod from every one of those Thai men. Granted it was merely a token by the third wedding, 20,000 bt, but nevertheless some Thai men will pay sin sod for a previously married woman.

Wow!! what what an amazing Buddist Bashing thread.

No facts just bashing!! keep it up guys and you will be in for a medal for sure.

Very surprised the mods have let go 8 pages may be orders from above?

Care to state what is stated that you think is not fact?

Abhisit telling monks to basically stay at home and denying them to express their opinion is just another example of Thailand's already shattered human rights record.

What are you talking about? Monks cannot vote. Monks cannot hold office. Monks cannot work for money. Monks cannot drink or fornicate. Monks cannot do a great many things. Monks, by definition and the vows they take, are apolitical. Any monk participating in a political demonstration will be violating the principles he has sworn to uphold.

10% of the property value seems high, especially since that means 20% of your half. On the other hand, it will give him something to to encourage him to work in your best interests.

^^ I think you meant for the above post to be in the 2010 Oscars thread!!

Elitist? Oh my. However, my comments remain. A "successful" lawyer with the track record described, just does not do this. All urban myths aside, it just doesn't happen except in cheap romance novelettes. It is a story line that is to be devoured by lonely souls alone in their beds wishing they could be the lucky lass to be rescued from a hard life by the white knight.

Apologies GK. I didn't read your post in the way it was intended.