way2muchcoffee

whatever your preference, one fact remains. Thailand was more stable and better performing with him in power and this can not be disputed. Of course the yellow shirted followers on here will dispute this and talk about extra judicial shootings etc, but you can not deny that thailand has gone down the pan since the 2007 coup.

Started to go down the pan since 2005 when Thaksin's various corruption schemes began to blow up on him.

personally I would rather an election be called and have a party in power that was voted into power, be it thaksins mob or the democrats, but at least be there because the people wanted you there and not because you snuck in through the back door.

There was no sneaking in. Only a re-alignment of coalition parties. The democrats and ppp were evenly matched in the proportional vote of Thailand in 2007. Bear in mind that the proportional vote is the only real measure of popularity of a party because the proportional vote is one man one vote. I reckon if the TRT-PPP-PTP had had a bit more honesty and integrity Thailand would not be in the position it is in.

Elections cannot be called, obviously, because the red shirts prevent democrats from campaigning. No free and fair vote can be possible until this situation is fixed.

On another note I have read back on the forum and see lots of people calling for Thaksin to serve his sentence, these seem to have dropped off since sondhi was given sentences that he is yet to serve, the hypocrisy on this forum is deafening at times. Also it is possible to be anti yellow shirt, anti democrat and anti Thaksin all at the same time, it seems on here if you don't support the yellows or the dems you must be pro Thaksin, weird eh?

Hypocrisy? Where? Sondhi should definitely serve his sentence. It is presently under appeal. Thaksin decided not to appeal the verdict in his case.

What is weird is that red shirts support Thaksin first and foremost, regardless of their ideology. So it is quite impossible not to identify red shirts as Thaksin supporters. When the leadership of the red shirts divorces their movement from Thaksin then it will be possible to identify the red shirts as a legitimate grassroots movement.

What is also weird is that people assume democrats and PAD are the same organization. PAD was a grassroots organization protesting the massive corruption of Thaksin. Now they are a political party of their own right. The Democrats have been a party for a long time. They have little to do with the PAD, though some Democrats are or were PAD sympathizers. Most of the sympathy for the PAD disappeared the day they took over the airport, with the exception of Kasit. Many Democrat supporters believe that Kasit should never have been appointed to the position of Foreign Minister. I agree. So there you have it. There is only a very weak connection between the PAD (yellow shirts) and the Democrats. Most foreigners here are Democrat supporters, or even the more restrictive Abhisit supporters.

But then again you know all this already.

Latindancer,

I'm mystified. You have been told multiple times that a second sin sod is NOT Thai culture. They would never ask this of a Thai man because he would laugh in their faces. The fact that they lowered it to 30,000 is indication of the seriousness with which they took their initial offer. You are being scammed. There is no other way to look at it. I am sorry for that. If you are okay with it then fine, but do not enter into this marriage with any delusions.

I have no problem with business owners recouping their investments.

I see. So you put money in a bank and its "ok to be able to get it back."

Or you take huge personal, professional and financial risks starting a business creating

hundreds of jobs and its "ok to get your money back"

Very generous of you.

What does putting money in a bank and getting it out have to do with anything?

With regards to my generosity, I would only call this fairness. A man starts a business and does well should be able to get his investment back and earn profit. I don't see anything contentious here. Perhaps only in your mind?

I simply believe that the wealth and greed we see today and throughout history is not at all reasonable, far from it. I believe that the natural consequence of the ideology you espouse will lead to the kind of inequity we see here in lovely little Thailand.

It is hard to imagine any comparison such as this being further from the truth.

In America, 1% own 33% of the wealth. That is 3 million people own this huge percentage.

In Thailand, the CPB owned by "you know who" owns 85% of the wealth.

3 million compared to 1 family.

BTW, do you think ONLY businessmen are greedy [money is one form of power] ?

Politicians are not [interested in more power] ?

My comment was on TAWP's libertarian ideology. I wasn't making any specific digs at any particular country, but was referring to all countries. What would make you think otherwise?

I believe there exists obscene wealth and obscene wealth distribution in every country. Some countries do better at wealth redistribution than others. Kudos to those countries and shame on the rest.

Apologies. I misread.

I went through a similar situation. My wife and I married legally at the Ampher. On our 1-year anniversary we had the traditional village wedding. During the year we saved up, purchased the clothes, and planned. The sin sod was given at the village ceremony. Most of it was returned less what I gave as a gift.

If you are going to the trouble of having a ceremony wouldn't the point be for her parents and family, as well as yours, to attend? Why are you not having the ceremony near her home? To answer your question, yes, sin sod would be appropriate in this situation, but the parents should be in attendance.

You have already been told the answer, definitively, in no uncertain terms.

Sin sod is paid once. Period. There is no second sin sod in Thai culture. That's the deal. It is impossible to think anything other than that her family is trying to scam you, AND SO IS SHE. They know the rules.

Or only fight when you know you are going to win! Pick your fights carefully but dont be pussies remember you are twice these peoples sizes. Before the old cronies say oh they dont fight the same as back home you dont know what you are talking about etc etc I have lived here for 10 years and although peace loving have won all 3 of my fights with 'Thai boys.'

A real man. And modest too.

We keep hearing that "half the country is is frustrated".

But they never mention that PPP got about 1/3 of the countries votes, not 1/2.

And they never mention that '1/2 of the country' is NOT frustrated bedcause Thaksin is not in power.

And they never ever talk about the frustrated poor in the other half who got screwed by Thaklsins

vindictive TRT policies of neglect for non TRT districts, or just plain negelect by PPP.

On the contrary 2/3 + or - of the country is finally getting a fairer shake now that TRT is gone.

It was much closer than that in the '1 man 1 vote' proportional vote. In the 1-man-1-vote part of the 2007 elections the Democrats gained slightly more votes than the PPP. It is rather difficult for any party to claim an overwhelming mandate with these results.

Would you be shocked if I said I agreed with your points, except for So given the realities on the ground, for the time being, the military must be pacified and appeased, by whatever political party controls the government.

The same was said about a few other military juntas. If people do not say no, then the military continues along its merry way. Hopefully, one does not have to resort to popular uprisings to achieve the change, as has happened elsewhere.

Not shocked at all. At this time I don't think the people are in a position to make that stand. It is important that some of the people continue to agitate about the military influence in politics and keep it in the public debate, but I don't believe Thailand is prepared to truly put the military in its place.

So, the army shows it can command 1000 officers and soldiers to a parade. Are they as sure they can order the same 1000 officers and soldiers to shoot at their own citizens? Or will some of them turn the rifles?

Of course they are not as sure. On the other hand, they can be sure that some of the grunts won't hesitate. Triggers will be pulled if that is the order given.

You make some very interesting points GK. I'll go ahead then. THE MILITARY SHOULD NOT BE INVOLVED IN POLITICS. That wasn't so hard. Now to the reality. Previously I have mentioned the pillars of democracy, including the separation of powers, free and fair elections, educated and informed public etc. etc. etc. In addition to the Judicial, Executive, and Legislative powers Thailand includes a fourth power - the military. The reality is that the the military in Thailand is powerful. They were powerful under Thaksin and they are powerful under the Democrats. This will not change for a very long time.

I make no excuses for the military and their meddling because I believe it is antithetical to democracy. But I do understand the reality of the situation. Some posters will go so far as to state that this is a military dictatorship. I do not believe this to be true. But I would never underestimate the power of the military. They have the guns. They have the men. If they really wanted they might be able control government. Who would stop them? Who could stop them? So given the realities on the ground, for the time being, the military must be pacified and appeased, by whatever political party controls the government.

Why not just build the fence leaving the 1.2 meter access? Surely you won't suffer for it in any way. On the other hand making enemies with neighbors is a sure way to increase your suffering, especially if you intend to stay on the property.

A mate of mine just applied for the teacher's license in Thailand. He has a B.A. in English Literature and Teacher Certification (35 education credits). He was a licensed teacher in Georgia and taught in Georgia government high schools for 3 years. He was rejected because the TCT doesn't think his education credits fit what they are looking for. Obviously they can't say what else he needs or what precisely was missing, but there it is. Rejected.

This suggests to me that even if I were to return to my home county. Do the coursework. Get licensed. Work in US schools for several years, I still wouldn't qualify to be a teacher in Thailand.

What kind of nonsense is this?

Although I think the stabbing was unnecessary the man clearly provoked the boys, middle finger and probably swearing in English. This is seriously a big NO NO!!! I really wonder why farang can be some dumb sometimes. Around the world can get a good bashing for it? They are not familiar with western road rules and why should they? Probably borrow their mothers or gay brothers' bike just to chill with some friends.

When someone Honk their horn at me I get very angry but hold my breath and try to relax but it would satisfy me to go and pull them out of the car,

You should never lose your temper in Thailand or expect the worst!!

Yes. I can see how raising a middle finger or otherwise expressing anger is grounds for murder,

Thanks rainman. Nice to read what they actually said.

Thaksin was basically found guilty of being a government minister at the time his wife bought the land. Under Thai law, he, as the husband of the buyer, had to sign to agree to his wife's purchase. If he hadnt the sale could be ruled illegal. He was convicted because he complied with the law but by doing so broke another law regarding conflict of interest by government ministers. So it was a kind of 'damned if you do & damned if you dont' situation.

There was no catch-22. Potjaman should never have purchased that land in the first place given her husband's role in the government.

I hope that would not happen of course... but that problem with 'democracy' is that sometimes you don't get what you want - I just don't see another way... hope I'm wrong - truly

But that is precisely where and how democracy would fail. The mechanics in a democracy are simply to have a populous that is educated, informed, and participates in free and fair elections. But democracy is much more than simple elections.

Democracy requires a separation of powers into Judicial, Legislative, and Executive branches. It is critical that this separation is clear and firm, otherwise a functioning democracy is not possible. Unfortunately the Thaksin-led TRT government systematically dismantled the separation of powers. Any return of Thaksin would guarantee the same. Moreover, in the simple act of un-banning politicians and whitewashing their crimes the Judicial branch would be destroyed and rendered meaningless and useless.

There you go again... 'and Thaksin was pardoned for his crime/s' - stop linking calls for an election to this issue - I'm illogical and you are logical?

hmmm pot and kettle springs to mind!

But the problem CMF is that calls for an election at this time have a fair chance of leading to a PPP government, though that is far from a certainty. And if PPP is elected, then fine, that's okay.

But what's not ok is the near certainty that the PPP would immediately revert back to the 1997 constitution, reinstate all banned politicians, whitewash Thaksin's crimes, and if possible, elect him PM.

It is therefore impossible to separate the call for immediate elections from the Thaksin situation.

Tell him directly and you will lose that friendship. I would put money on it.

Why? I never understood this. And yet it seems to be some kind of common wisdom.

I've done similar with people in the past and never lost one friend over it, either here or back home. If it were me I would definitely want to know. I expect the friendship would be stronger for it.

I am, in principal, stating that the only way for lasting peace is for a fair and equitable election - how we do it? now there's the rub!

So maybe we're not too far off in our beliefs then. No violence. Free and fair elections. Good Governance. We may disagree in the methods and timing to accomplish this but the goals are the same.

Repeatedly? not on this thread they haven't - you can't have it both ways - if it's wrong it's wrong for both sides - and stop saying 'Thaksin' many Thais I know who want an election are not Thaksin supporters

You might have to read the many threads to catch it, but I assure you I have. I have yet to see any regular poster in the News Clippings section offer any support for the airport takeover. I totally agree, you can't have it both ways. It was wrong for the PAD to commit violence in the pursuit of their agenda. It is wrong for the UDD, DAAD, RCM51, etc to commit violence in the pursuit of their agenda.

I have no doubt that you know people who want elections that are not Thaksin supporters. Just as there are many people who do not think elections are appropriate at this time who are not PAD supporters.

It would good if you would please explain how fair elections could be held right now. Please also comment on the fact that one of the major parties is not allowed to campaign in large swaths of the country. Do you believe that if they are prevented from doing so by a very loud and sometimes violent minority group then the election can in any way be fair?

I am anti-violence by any side - but the yellows set the trend for disturbance with the airport take-over which smashed the Thai tourist economy to shreds - funny how you avoid all mention of this and comment too... funny that

Actually nearly every anti-Thaksin poster here has repeatedly condemned the PAD takeover of the airport. Funny that you don't remember the many times this has been stated.

IMO, if the DEM-government wanted this person indicted for corruption then this would have happened already, independent judiciary or not. Am I wrong?

You most certainly are correct. On the other hand, the case may not have been important enough to the government to make the calls required to expedite the process.

I don't know what you might think but if people see spooky things in my sentence to be careful with our judgements, whenever and where ever, I'm flabbergasted

Well I, for one, was spooked by your comments. It gave me pause to reflect on some of my posts and the possibility of anything coming back and biting. Whether you meant it this way or not, it probably is pretty sage advice to consider what we write and how we write it. It is clear that this site is being monitored. And talk about spooky, this is my 666th post a TVF.

I wonder where dustybin, CLOD, and Fishbucket have gone?