chiang mai

There are several in Chiang Mai but you might be best advised to wait until November when the new tax return forms (and instructions) are issued. I reckon waiting until January/February is a good idea, that way there will have been first hand reports on the many open issues which even tax accountants can't answer today.

We can't go any further with this, not if you are going to ignore average wage stats et al and remain convinced that almost everyone is committing tax evasion. Let's wait and see what facts come out later and then perhaps return to this. Out.

How much do you think that 75% should be reduced by, in order to allow for those people who don't earn enough money to pay tax? 25% already file a return, X% don't earn enough to pay tax so they don't file, Y% are tax evaders. What's the value of X and Y?

Do you have a problem with me thinking something or having a particular belief? "FWIW I think an AVERAGE spend of 65k per month across all long stay visa holders is far too high". And I suppose you do understand how averages work, don't you! In order to have an average of 65k, there would be highs and lows that went well above and well below that figure in order to arrive at an average of 65k. That would include the circle of people you know and a lot of pensioners on the maximum UK State Pension of 221 Pounds per week, which is only 41k baht per month.

That's not true either! You wrote: "The reality is most of Thai people including the poor workforce you mention is hustling doing multiple undeclared side businesses in order to get by, this is where the tax money is". I agree there are those people, lots of them. But the sum total of those individual earnings does still not amount to anything substantial that's worthwhile the effort chasing. Why go after Somchai just because he's 50 or 100k baht per year over the threshold for filing but hasn't? He's hustling like that because he's trying, as you say, to get by. He's not a tax evader in the true sense. Then you wrote: "Needless to mention the elite and high-so who are well structured to avoid an even bigger amount of potential tax. TRD is imo currently not in capacity (or not willing as you think so) to collect that". All this nonsense about TRD not being able to or unwilling to make their own people pay tax....folks simply haven't done the math. Well, isn't this why the recent rule change was put into force? I don't know why you don't think TRD is not willing to go after them, they did change the rules didn't they?

Average wage in Thailand, 15,000 per month, that's the reality. https://tradingeconomics.com/thailand/wages That's 180,000 per year, the first 150,000 is zero rated for tax, plus 60,000 Personal Allowance, is 210,000 baht per year. That 75% is 30,000 baht per year short of needing to pay tax. Plus, remove the 25% who already file a return and that means the rest are way under the threshold for paying tax. That's why 75 of the workforce doesn't file a return, they don't earn enough to do so.

It's several factors, chose the one that excites you most: - not enough potential new tax money to be had, amongst a mostly rural poor. - no political will to pursue poor people for tax - giving subsidies with one hand and taking away tax with the other is mean spirited and unproductive. Chasing the 75% has never been a priority, because other tax channels have taken up the slack, VAT, corporate etc. Now times are financially tighter, all avenues are being examined but the ones that have best payback will be first.

Two points: GBP has been weakening since Bretton Woods, the Pound has been on a downwards slope for decades. https://www.macrotrends.net/2549/pound-dollar-exchange-rate-historical-chart Second: the US Fed actively monitors currencies against USD, for currency manipulation and frequently puts various countries on their watch list. That encourages countries to import more goods from, the US. The following link explains: https://www.cfr.org/article/tracking-currency-manipulation

No they don't prove that whatsoever. You are confusing capability versus desire and need. The BP tells us that 25% of the 38 million strong workforce already file tax returns, the other 75% don't, mostly because there is no need. The average wage in Thailand is between 12k and 15k a month. A married couple with one child can earn 300k per year between them or 25k a month, before they need to pay tax. (60k x 2, +30k, +150K). The major budget expense over the past two decades has been government subsidies aimed at the poor, those 75%, successive governments have ploughed huge amounts into that, in order to stay in power. Trying to pursue that same group for tax is akin to the UK government chasing UK pensioners for tax on the State Pension, it does not instill confidence in the government. It's blatantly clear to me that the TRD knows how to increase the tax net and how to successfully undertake tax collection, but going after the rural poor doesn't accomplish that. No government here has ever said, let's go tax the poor and they almost certainly never will. For that reason, the TRD has not tried to expand the tax net in that way, except where it has seen blatant abuse and fraud. The people who comprise the 50% of GDP that represent the informal labor force or grey economy is a slightly more tricky problem. Many of those people moonlight outside of their regular tax paying jobs (I know several HomePro employees who do), Many still don't earn over the 25k a month to where they must file a return. 25% of the Work Force filing a tax return may be about as good as it gets, there may not be many more, until people start earning more, or, until government reduces TEDA to reduce the threshold.

Agreed, Monday thru Sunday are the worst.

I'd love to bicker with you on this point but my schedule is choker, perhaps later.

TRD is not to the same level of capability or efficiency but it doesn't need to be in order to be effective

You are not being objective or even considering the problem. The capabilities of a Revenue Department are relative to the nature of the community it collects taxes from and its investigation and audits team trained, relative to the level and nature of the crime in that community. It's not necessary to be Harvard trained in order to understand the tax collection and investigation process, the model is very simple in fact. People spend or acquire money, where did it come from, how did it get to them and was it taxed. If all those things are OK, where's the paperwork. With that remit in mind, a Revenue Department, even in Thailand, can easily do their job well.

No sane or rational person would conclude that a Revenue Department wasn't capable, solely based on what they see in one of their offices. The very fact that it is the Revenue Department, should raise a red flag of caution, in ANY country. Simply, their powers are substantial. Secondly, there are far too many aspects of life here that present in one way on the surface but hide what is underneath, even the very nature of Thai people is that way. Lastly, just because you think the TRD doesn't begin to compare to HMRC or the IRS, doesn't mean they are not effective and capable of basic research and accountancy and causing substantial pain. When there is money involved, I would be very wary of under estimating anyone here.

I think the six lane Bangkok/Pattaya expressway with its 120 speed limit, effectively in most lanes, has to be a strong contender. Failing that, any road that has Thai drivers on it.

Yes, it doesn't matter from where, only the fact that it's inheritance matters.

If he didn't budget for 25, he didn't do his homework.

The tax base is a low 25% of the workforce, any Revenue Dept would be crazy not to want to expand that. But that doesn't necessarily imply they will do so by adding the foreign community, it's far more probable tp think they want to tackle the Thai sector.

Well said motdaeng. RW: Surely you must realise that Immigration sees the financial status of all foreigners on long stay visa's and that information is relayed to the TRD, in order to help decide tax policy. TRD knows with great certainty that historically, the average retiree came here and lived on about 65k per month, the same today as a middle class Thai's might earn, perhaps 50k a month for married foreigners. Thailand has been a historically cheap place to live, less so today as inflation has increased. Trying to aim tax policy at wealthy westerner retirees is a futile and pointless exercise, that is the group that is the smallest and the most mobile. The average foreign retiree will end up paying little or no tax, the TRD knows this otherwise they would be seen as a pirah in the eyes of the international community. The more wealthy group may need to cough up but that the price they pay from trying to escape tax by living here in the first place. And if none of that sits well with you, there's always, dear old home sweet home, back across the water.

The subject of Tax Clearances Certificates (TCC's) interested me recently and no doubt others have a similar interest, here's what I have come to understand. Despite it being said above that TCC's were rescinded years ago, they were not. A Bangkok Post article dated 2012 confirms they were still in use for at least a small group of visa holders, mostly visiting sportsmen and entertainers. To understand why they have not been enforced more widely requires an understanding of the Work Permit process. This effectively transfers the responsibility for tax payment, from the WP holder, to the employer, hence, it doesn't matter if the WP holder leaves the country because the TRD can always collect from the employer that remains. Only when the WP is renewed does the TRD ask for confirmation that past taxes have been paid. Unfortunately, that model is not transferable to long term residents who don't have an employer guarantor.

The thing is, it's not the new tax rules, the tax rules are all fairly well established and there's very little about them that's new. I think many people understand the rules well, I also think a number of people refuse to try and understand them because they feel overwhelmed or aren't being given information in the basic format they are used to. Stay out of Thailand for more than 180 days per year, if that makes you feel safer, for most that is not necessary at all.

The safest person in this tax mess is the pensioner who has his pension remitted to Thailand every month, the TRD loves this guy because nothing is hidden, everything's in plain view and there are no open questions. The "carry cash on the plane", "my wife supports me" and, "I won it at the border casino, those guys are in for some pain at some point.

Straws, for grasping at, at the ready!

Why is so much space being devoted to one aspect of Australian tax, if you don't know or can't agree, say so and move on but please, stop talking about your disagreement.

Yes we agree that. It was the way you wrote the para's that made me see the statements as contradictory. No biggie, as long as we're all clear.