samtam

On 3/3/2025 at 9:05 AM, Rick45 said:

 

No where in the constitution does it even mention social security.  You have no constitutional right to social security.  Social Security was created by congress, and congress can write a law and change social security in anyway they see fit.

On 3/3/2025 at 9:43 AM, jas007 said:

You obviously know nothing, so believe what you want.  The right to travel is a fundamental human right recognized by the Supreme Court. It's a longstanding concept.  As is your fundamental right to your property, including your Title II social Security benefits which you earned.  If anyone tried to restrict your right to travel, including your right to travel overseas with your property, they wouldn't' get very far in the courts.  Perhaps you should stick to commenting about that which you have some clue. 

I think it's fair to assume that you can now take nothing for granted in the US under the administration of Musk & DOGE. 

2 minutes ago, treetops said:

 

US Social Security is not taxed in Thailand.

Sorry. I missed any reference to US Social Security.

On 3/1/2025 at 3:22 PM, WDSmart said:

Actually, I just found out last year that I could qualify for a one-year retirement extension based on monthly deposits of THB 65K. Before that, I thought it had to be retirement income. And that used to have to be verified by your consulate, but the US consulate quit doing that 15 years ago or more. So, after that, I've always relied on the THB 800K in the bank, that is, until last year when an Immigration official at my Immigration office told me I could just show proof of THB 65K each month.  My US retirement (Social Security) is much more than that, and I always transfer that from my US bank to my Thai bank every month. So now, I'm all set. 🙂

What about tax? 5% on THB780K after TEDA of THB500K is THB14,000 - or less, if you have insurance exemption.

51 minutes ago, Harrisfan said:

Why is Z meeting with Prince Charles? Charlie is not an expert on wars.

He's King Charles III, (since 2022). Like Zelensky, he's also a head of state. Unlike Zelensky, he served in the Royal Air Force and the Royal Navy from 1971 to 1976. The King, mindful of his constitutional role, agreed to a meeting, at Zelensky's behest, just as he has issued an invitation to Trump, (both with the agreement, or request of the prime minister).

7 hours ago, Mutt Daeng said:

So, when filing online, you can enter data in stages, save it and then go back later to edit/complete the previously entered data?

Well, you can certainly save your file, but whether in stages, I'm not sure. Mine is completed and saved. I amended one version that I had saved, and then added in a withholding tax interest claim. That has now been saved, and I will file when I want (before 8 April).

4 hours ago, jwest10 said:

U so and understand what you are saying but the Revenue have consistently stated the same and I know someone who works there too!!! 
Also can not do it on line as belief one has to have employment here and in any case in Thai but that foes not affect me.

Yes, you can file online with a TIN, even without a Thailand salary. It is only in Thai, so either using Google translate, or have a Thai person complete on your behalf. My online file in complete, and saved and pending a "send" button, when I want to, (before 8 April 2025).

[I access through https://efiling.rd.go.th/rd-cms/ and log in using my name, TIN and have an SMS sent with digital code.]

1 hour ago, jwest10 said:

They come in to affect and the only sent to Thailand is my frozen UK statement and the rest savings

Sorry, not YOU defining "sent to Thailand", but the Thailand Revenue Department. Their Guideline does not define it.

42 minutes ago, jwest10 said:

In my circumstances my personal allowances far exceed the any assessessible  and no tax form is needed per my local Revenue Office.
They say why do you need to file a tax form just relax, as if

My circumstances are the same - personal allowances of THB500K far exceed assessable income. BUT, your local Revenue Office has interpreted the Revenue Department's own filing Guidelines I quoted previously, to wit: any income over THB60K for a single person or THB120K for a married couple, requires a tax filing.

This is where the whole thing gets really annoyingly stupid....the lack of consistency in what TRD say from office to officer. One would hope by now someone with authority at TRD somewhere in Thailand has grasped that fact, and realised that they need to make adjustments to either their guidelines, or their internal directives....

....oops, wake me up😴....TIT

2 minutes ago, jwest10 said:

We all know the personal allowances and most have either 500K or 560K

My point was defining "sent to Thailand", not the allowances.

13 hours ago, CFCol said:

Don't you mean PND91?

No. When all the figures are keyed into the e-filing it produces and PND.90.

I thought it would be a PND.91 too, but the programme converts "income" into salary, so after it computes, it becomes a PND.90.

(Yes, another confusing and apparent contradiction, as I don't have a salary in Thailand.)

7 minutes ago, anrcaccount said:

 

 

As I stated on the other thread, no one else does this.

 

Yet, you seem determined to be the first person to try and declare foreign ATM card and debit card transactions as income for thai tax.

 

Let us know how you go - but again, as I said on the other thread, on the balance of risk - doing nothing is much wiser. 

Got it!

As a matter of curiosity, what is the basis of your vehement argument to ignore TRD guidelines? Is it just the TIT lack of clarity BS that permeates, or something more substantive? I only ask candidly, because the efficacy of toeing the TRD Guidelines is rather diluted.

2 hours ago, jwest10 said:

Subject: Thailand Tax Summary

Hi,

Here’s a summary of my Thailand tax situation:

• Personal Allowance: 500,000 THB per year.
• Income Sent to Thailand: Below this amount.
• Employment Income: None (in Thailand or elsewhere).
• UK Pensions: Already taxed in the UK, so not taxable in Thailand.
• Savings: Exempt from Thai tax.
• Thai Revenue Department: Confirmed that I do not need to file a tax return.
• 220,000 THB Rule: Applies to Thai employment income, not foreign income.

✅ No tax owed, no need to file a return.

Keeping this for reference in case anything changes in the future.

Income Sent to Thailand: Below this amount.

Define "Sent to Thailand".

Actually, rather than ChatGPT, get TRD to define it.

It doesn't, and therein lies the problem of TRD and AI.

6 hours ago, jwest10 said:

Yes, indeed and had a look at the e filing and all in Thai and difficult to follow and in my case have no Tin and  told I want get one from the Revenue.

I have been around my local office and get about the 220K but they stated that as my personal allowances are much higher than my income I do not have to file.
Plus the fact I have a Thai friend who has a partner who works in the office stating the same.
Keep a record on paper and many stating also let them chasing you and do not fet on the system.

Also they asked as I have no employment here or monies from work overseas why do want to file?
They stated no need as above.
 

Whilst what you say makes complete sense to me, your TRD office doesn't obviously follow the Thai Revenue Department guidelines:

Quote

 

1. Residents of Thailand If you stay in Thailand for the total of at least 180 days in the tax year, you are considered a “resident of Thailand” for tax purposes. You have to file a return on the income that you received if you meet one of the following conditions:

 

(1) Your total income exceeded 60,000 baht in the tax year.

 

(2) You were married and your income combined with that of your spouse exceeded 120,000 baht in the tax year.

 

(3) You are a Community Enterprise, which is a non-registered ordinary partnership or a non-juristic body of persons registered and received a Certificate of Registration from the Department of Agricultural Extension, with the total income exceeding 1,800,000 baht in the tax year, or with the total income exceeding 60,000 baht in the tax year, but not more than 1,800,000 baht with an exemption from income tax under rules and conditions prescribed by the Director-General.

 

The rest of what they've told you is not covered in the Guideline, (income after TEDA, no salary in Thailand etc). Also they do not define "remittance", as in money brought in / accessed via a method other than an overseas bank transfer. So called Thai tax experts, including those who have wheeled out TRD staff state otherwise.

There is simply no consistency from one office or officer to another. Perhaps the Finance Minister is realising they have opened a subject which has no concise rules. Until they do, it is anybody's guess whether one should file or not; and I've "heard" both sides numerous times, but not a specific clear directive from the Thai Revenue Department, in writing, other than the "Guideline" aforementioned.

50 minutes ago, newbee2022 said:

The location of ATM. And bank statement without transactions? Attach it.

Actually, it would be copies of the passbook, (with some ATM payments into an account), which bears no exact relationship to the withdrawal amount from the foreign bank source, as in I draw THB30K from foreign bank and pay THB20K into Thai bank. You think they would find that useful? Or do they expect unreconcilable supporting documents, which they never bother to check? 

The passbook shows "teller ID", which seem to be the same branch, so I presume that is the location.

These passbook entries do not reflect the debit card entries on the foreign bank, but maybe again the inability to reconcile the amount on the PND.90 and the supporting documents is (bizarrely) not required.

2 hours ago, newbee2022 said:

I sent bank statements signed by the bank. Also attached receipt of already paid taxes. The bank statement/credit card shows the Location.

"Bank statements" are presumably bank statements from a ban in Thailand?

"...show the location" of what?

[Again, my Thailand bank statements show zero transactions.]

As discussed in a previous thread of a broader nature, I plan to e-file my tax return which shows income from pension and dividends paid offshore, and some of which is used in Thailand only by foreign ATM card, or foreign debit card.

Does anyone else do this, and what documents do they file with the online filing?

NB. No transactions in the aforementioned occur in any Thailand bank account.

1 hour ago, NoDisplayName said:

I would expect nothing will be required, but have bank statements showing remittances into Thailand available in the very unlikely event you are questioned.  Nothing from offshore banks, just the money being received in your Thai account.

 

The point is I have NO remittances into Thailand, so my Thailand bank accounts show NO remittances into Thailand. ("Remittance" is the term used to cover say a telegraphic transfer, or bank transfer; there are none for 2024.)

My "remittances" are ONLY via ATM withdrawals (using foreign bank ATM account) and Debit Card transactions (using foreign bank account).

The only statements that show these are my foreign bank statements, which have 70% of transactions completely unrelated to the 2 methods aforementioned. If I give these statements to TRD they are not going to understand them, as they are a composite of my multicurrency accounts, and the ATM withdrawals and Debit Card transactions are from a source that varies; Example: Debit Card withdrawal of say THB 219, source: UK State Pension paid in UK, and transferred in GBP to my GBP account in my foreign bank, or from my THB foreign bank account, (partial sum), or source dividend on a foreign held share, (partial sum).

Quote

Correct me if I'm worng, but you only enter a few numbers - the total assessable remittance under 'salaries income', your bank info if claiming a refund (bank statement would be required), and check the correct boxes for your allowances.

Yes, that is correct, (using the broad sense of "remittance"). AFAIK, RD has not defined "remittance".

The RD guide for completion of PND90 does not specify pension or debit card income, but is one of the many areas disputed by RD and tax experts alike. If they want documentary evidence I will probably end up sending them scanned copies of all the ATM withdrawal advices, (already scanned) and all the Debit Card transaction slips, about 150 documents in all. They all tally, down to the last satang.

Quote

 

Maybe you should start a new tax thread with the specific question.  Hopefully someone who's done it can adv....er....opinionate.

 

"File online, taxable pension but no tax due.  Any docs needed?"

 

I will.

On 1/28/2025 at 8:16 PM, anrcaccount said:

 

There's a old saying that applies to you, and the vast majority of foreigners in Thailand, when comes to filing a tax return.

 

I think this saying is applicable for both the foreigner, and the Thai TRD. 

 

"More trouble than it's worth" 

The longer I wait to file my (e-file) saved PND90, and with the vague statement from the Finance Minister Pichai on 14 February 2025, I am now coming round to thinking it would be better not to file.

The filing is easy enough, it's the documentation, which as aforementioned (in the quote) is not straightforward... 

Quote

From what I gather, (in a subsequent break down of the actual Thai conversation), the Thai lady thought my UK State Pension was paid in UK, (which it is), and then I transferred it directly to my Thai bank, which I don't. I transfer it to an account in Hong Kong, in GBP, and then convert that to HKD or THB, and not the full amount, because I have a multicurrency account. The reconciliation process which she thinks is going to be straightforward, is going to be far from that. And with 74 such transactions (which are direct "remittances"), they are subdivided, depending on currency transaction. I have a complete record, extrapolated from the composite bank statements. If I provide the bank statements, they will have to have several trails to follow, in order to reach the source. Sure, they can go through that process, but it will take time and effort on both our parts, which I think they do not appreciate.

I have read some unverified comment on Expat Tax that there are penalties for not filing. What are these penalties, (bearing in mind my tax due is ZERO)? Or is it just arbitrary? My Thai friend who has been helping me do the online file said he omitted to file for 2 years running, (change of job, circumstances). He went in the third year, apologised, was not fined and did not even pay back taxes.

Grateful for anyone with reliable knowledge or experience could share.

3 hours ago, ronnie50 said:

I seem to recall the banks had no facility to do the face recognition for foreigners (because they could only enter Thai ID numbers, not passports into their facial recognition system). Maybe they worked it out. Dunno.

I did mine three times. First time at Krungsri head office about 2 years ago. The machine was not working. Did it a second time at another branch a few months later. Did it with UOB last year. Both times using my passport, although the UOB staff did not know how to use the passport reader. In the end about 4 branch staff completed the massive banking arrangement that they had asked me to do. It is required to transfer over THB50K.

2 hours ago, jaywalker2 said:

Well, there was a new charge of 100 baht right after I updated the passbook. I don't know what else it could have been for. And it's the first time I've experienced it too but before there were always update machines with the ATMS. Not anymore.

I guess you didn't ask, or read the 2 or 3 letter narrative, such as "SC" = Service Charge, or "FCD" = Cash Deposit via Cash Deposit Machine. (Glossary of abbreviations usually in the back of your passbook.) 

14 minutes ago, Cameroni said:

 

It's not convincing that this has to do with "wealthy Thais", because it was clear at the outset that the new tax rules would impact wealthy Thais, that was the point. 

 

More likely this has to do with the changed economic landscape created by Trump's tariffs, which will greatly affect China and Thailand sees a chance to get more foreign investement from China.

Por 161 (September 2023) & 162 (November 2023) were issued before Trump's presidency, and the imposition of tariffs.

So far, sadly, there have been no new PORs issued, to deal with Trump tariffs, threatened, imaginary, or real. 

57 minutes ago, Ben Zioner said:

You are dreaming. Any change will have to wait until next year to take effect and will be measures relieve the tax burden of those who want to reinvest in Thailand significant wealth from overseas. 

 

RD 743 and some of the DTAs already protect foreigners.

I didn't realise the Finance minister's remarks were so precise (date), concise (process) and clear🫡

13 hours ago, NoDisplayName said:

 

I'm'assume somebody important with important friends in important positions did not agree.

 

I'm'assume also that global taxation is dead in the water, for the same reasons.

11 hours ago, Kerryd said:

I'm guessing a certain nation to the north doesn't want it's citizens to have to worry about paying taxes in Thailand while working on Chinese projects Thailand has contracted Chinese companies to do with money borrowed from Chinese "investment banks" who will own/operate/collect revenue from those projects for decades.

Guaranteed this sudden "re-evaluation" has absolutely nothing to do with a couple thousand white-hairs squeaking by on their meagre pensions being worried that their non-taxable pensions might be taxed because they have no clue about the tax treaties or the actual Thai tax scheme itself.

When "Big Red" whispers these days, Thailand is quick to jump. Hence the recent announcements about changes in condo ownership rules (in "certain designated areas only), changes in Visas, proposed casino legislation, submarine deals.

Many expats have the ludicrious notion that the Thai economy hinges on what they spend in the country every year.
A lot of them actuall think that a few thousand "Farangs" - most of them barely skimping by on their pensions as it is - has such a huge impact on the economy that Thailand makes all those changes with them in mind.

And not the 10s of millions of Chinese coming here every year. And the multi-billion dollar projects like the high speed troop transport - er, I mean "rail link" between China and Thailand. Or the condo projects. The weapons deals (i.e. submarines). The proposed "southern bridge" entirely meant to allow Chinese shipping to get to Europe without having to pass through the Straits of Malacca - which China has no influence or control over.

One just has to look at how Big Red has it's hooks deep into Myanmar, Laos and Cambodia to see that Thailand is a priority for them to gain control over.

10 hours ago, Thingamabob said:

I'm told that enormous pressure has been put upon the TRD, by wealthy, influential Thais, to leave this issue well alone.

As noted, the comments from the Finance minister are hardly "bankable", and need to be clarified to have any meaning whatsoever, such as "Por 161 & 162 are to be scrapped". Whether this materialises before 31 March  (or 8 April for online) filing deadlines remains to be seen.

@NoDisplayName @Kerryd @Thingamabob I think the reasons you have suggested for the change, (if indeed there is one) are absolutely spot on. They will (may) come about because the issue has affected the important (aka rich) members of Thai society. Even if Kh Richguy doesn't himself have to pay more taxes, it is possible that spending for 2024 has seen a nosedive, and the evidence is in reduced inward remittances, resulting in his business suffering. Reduced spending has already seen a major reduction in property transactions, (when it is possible these may not be affected); but when there's uncertainty for the largest consumers, (Chinese and Indians), they are going to wait until there is clarity.

I agree, that the reduction of the amount of money we expats have brought in is chicken feed, and of no consequence, even though we may have reduced our inward remittances (therefore spending) by 50% or more.

I also wondered why there was nothing in the press that I could see that addressed the concerns of the wealthy Thais to whom this change was directed. Well, of course they don't have their AN equivalent, as they have direct access to the levers of power.