SamuiGrower

Not sure what the disagreement is. Perhaps I was vague. ???? Ethanol is a common and popular solvent in the extraction of cannabis/hemp. It is scalable, economical, safer than hydrocarbons, and FDA approved in food products. Ethanol (ethyl alcohol) is the spirits we consume. It is not the only solvent used and greatly depends on what you need to achieve and the economic model/budget created. Every type of extraction has its pros and cons. It should be pointed out, extraction science is not unique to cannabis. Botanical extraction has been done for hundreds of years and is only, in the last two decades, being applied to cannabis. The fragrance, F&B and nut oil industry are the progenitors of the information we use in cannabis. Ethanol has unique properties in that it is both polar and non-polar (alkyl and hydroxyl group). This, in and of itself, makes it a good fit for cannabis extraction. It strips ionic and non-ionic compounds: chlorophyll, water, waxes, lipids, lignins….pretty much everything but cellulose. Hydrocarbon solvents, like n-butane, n-propane are excellent solvents that will remove cannabinoids and leave behind the chlorophyll but that comes at a cost: reduced yield (compared to ethanol). You are correct about hexane in chlorophyll mitigation, as its non-polar qualities readily absorb chlorophyll but is rarely used in cannabis extractions due to its extreme toxicity and the expense in removing every last bit of it. In an organic chem lab, hexane is used if the product is NOT to be consumed. This is not to say that it’s never used, it’s just expensive to get it to safety standards. There are better choices (acetone and ether but they are rarely used as well) but chlorophyll mitigation in cannabis extraction is predominantly done through: Winterization: The cannabis extraction standard. The solvent used in the extraction (ethanol) is cryo-chilled to -40 to -50 degrees. The waxes, lipids/fats and chlorophyll will precipitate out. The maceration (solvent/cannabis) is then passed through vacuum filtration, leaving the impurities behind. Filtration is probably the most important step and often not done in “back room” ops. The solvent may then be passed through bleaching clay (fullers earth, bentonite and hybrids) with activated charcoal and DE to mitigate color and other impurities. The resulting solvent is then run through a rotovap (vacuum distillation), SPD or molecular distillation to reclaim the solvent (ethanol) and leave behind the oil/distillate with that nice golden color. Hydrocarbon extraction will have a continuous module for each of the above. If your extract is dark (brown, black, green) it is because of impurities: mainly chlorophyll, waxes, lipids and plant matter. If it is bitter, it surely because of chlorophyll. I hope this is helpful.

Is there such a thing? Using fresh material? How much would you lose through winterization or vac purge? Have you made it and preserved that fresh terpene profile? Do tell. This is so off topic. Sorry.

Just had an epiphany folks…… Yes, terpene content does go up if you measure it against water weight loss. If you control terpene loss through controlled environment drying and curing, the less volatile terpenes remain while water is evaporated. Percent terpenes to weight can go up as water weight goes down but amount of terpenes remains the same or less. I just realized it when reading the aforementioned “clearly makes the point” article in Ganjapreneur. The pretty graphics were boasting 100% increase in a terpene and a 35% increase in this terpene and 50% increase in that terpene- they never mentioned anything quantitative, I.e. Mg/g. Their magic research was in support of their IP they were selling - controlled drying/terpene preservation. I stand with the science: no terpenes are synthesized after harvest. Ps. The plant does not continue to live after harvest (more bro-science). Nothing is synthesized. It is dead, Cells are not being fed, PS I and PS II ceases to function, no photosynthesis. No energy to drive the machine. The plant is undergoing enzymatic degradation of chlorophyll, and other products that affect taste. It is dead.

I’m happy, in so many ways, that it’s your last comment but it’s not mine. You’re right, I could call myself anything I want on this forum (Princess? Buffy?) and it doesn’t make it real, only in my real life. I don’t need to flaunt pedigree degrees to mouth breathers to influence their thoughts, I have clients that pay me for what I say on this forum for free. FYI, my first choice was to call myself an astronaut or a rocket scientist but that would be lying? BTW, you think I make up this stuff? A wow! The article that “clearly” showed your point, was done on proprietary company equipment by the company’s researcher. They are selling IP, you didn’t catch that, huh? And, you clearly didn’t get the YouTube video either. Brought to you by the “leading cannabis research company” with 27K followers. Never read that study. Never heard of the stoned fella on the video either. Seems hardly credible. Funny thing, you require “well researched studies” from me but show me drivel to make YOUR point? The science I quote is by Drs. Bruce Bugbee, Westmoreland, D. Fernandez, Langenfeld, et al and the group of post grad researchers at USU, crop physiology lab. I’m sure you never heard of them, why would you? Do you want me to provide their academic pedigree too? What I stated about terpenes is real and factual. Here’s my last comment: two pain studies with CBD. NIH and JAMA. The placebo won out over the CBD in both. Yes, not a sleep study but meaningful. And, since the evidence is soooo necessary, here tis’ (well researched studies….????) https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/34223660/ https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamanetworkopen/fullarticle/2799017 There is your “hard science that says it doesn’t work” I realize, people can get their butt hurt when they hear something that tears down their belief system. I don’t need to prove anything to anyone here. It’s a forum. Need proof? YOU do the research, but just don’t stop on the first unvetted Google search that parrots what you heard on the net in the first place - one that’s brought to you by the highest pay per click SEO. Just keep it real. And please, can we kiss and make up? ????

The journals and papers I read about cannabis science, all say the data does not support the CBD/Sleep claim. The body of claims about CBD are pitched by companies and social media movements. Hard stop. I do not traffic in speculative science. A recent CBD study in relation to pain showed the placebo group reported better results than those receiving doses. Jerusalem University I believe is coming out with some CBD sleep data from what I hear. If it works for you or anyone, hey, more power to you. After all, as humans, we want and need it to work, be it science or faith. I am just pointing out the hard science. And, speaking of science, we just do not know enough about cannabinoids, the endocannabinoid system and the mechanism of how they work or interact with the human body. We will eventually get there but until then any claim should be viewed with skepticism. This is incorrect information on many levels. Terpenes are not static but they do NOT increase after harvest, they decrease. Whatever terpenes are present at chop is what you begin your drying and curing with. What you end up with, net, is far less due to oxidation and thermal degradation. There are other enzymatic processes that do occur with chlorophyll and polyphenols/flavaonids, that affect taste and flavor but not with terpenes. Terpene synthesis is directly related to photosynthesis, which ceases at harvest. You can not create more. The only ‘changes’ in terpenes are there evaporation and oxidative rates. The YouTube video I would take with a grain of salt. Example: Let’s say max terpene content of flower tested was 3% (considered high). 16 weeks later it was what? 10% higher? OK. 10% higher would be 0.003 percent total higher. How about +/- accuracy of the testing? Get my drift. Trust me, if there was a way to increase terpenes on a measurable and consistent basis, large scale growers and consultants would be pitching. You do know who pitches that, don’t you? Lighting companies, nutrition companies, seed banks, etc…. YouTube, gotta love it! Many bro-science practitioners do a 24-72 hours dark period before harvest. The claim is that it increases terpenes. This is incorrect. There is no science to support that claim. The last week of flowering is the most critical in terpene development and reaches it peak through controlled stress: drought, EC, temp, humidity. Terpene synthase pathways are driven by photons not dark periods. Every day before harvest that the plant is deprived of its 12 hours of light, will result in less terpenes. Reports of trichome/terpene increase is purely anecdotal. I know my contrarian prose rub a few the wrong way but remember, I’m a member of the choir:doper, smoker, dabber, hash mongering and a scientist. The hard data is what I go by and report on. Just keeping it real and 100% @Stoner. That High Times articles is insightful but 7 years old. Extraction science has improved by leaps and bounds, as the equipment and SOPs as well. I think what I meant to say, was the freshness of the terpenes and taste of the flower through live rosin pressing was/is as close to “whole plant” that I’ve ever tasted. I agree, that solvents will extract a higher percentage for sure but then it gets degraded. Good article. ????

Terpene degradation begins the moment they are produced by the plant. When the plant is growing, they are continually renewed. The majority volatilize (evaporate) at 15.5 centigrade - room temperature - post harvest. Oxidation of terpenes happens through exposure to air, light, heat, and humidity. They are doomed from the start. Terpenes and concentrates are a delicate balancing act. If you use Hydrocarbon extraction (butane/propane), a non-polar solvent, it leaves behind the chlorophyll and strips cannabinoids and terpenes. Most of the terpenes are lost in prior or post decarboxylation or winterization and certainly in post solvent purging, even using deep vacuum. Terpenes are a bit elusive and certainly fleeting. What’s not lost during drying and curing, through evaporation is certainly lost by thermal degradation. The best preservation of terpenes to my knowledge is “Live Rosin”: Whole flower pressing under pressure and a bit of heat. It is dabbed or vaped and imho, the best representation of terpenes in flower. Because of this known volatility and degradation of terpenes, most terpenes are added back post extraction of concentrates and distillates. Since the quantity of terpenes produced naturally are so small (<3%), and not economical for fractional distillation to reclaim, ‘lab grade’ terpenes are added back. These are produced from petroleum products. Since the science of inhaling hydrocarbons and terpenes have not been studied enough, it would be considered a bad thing to vape ‘added back’ terps. For those further interested in terpenes, I wrote this post on the forum awhile ago: https://aseannow.com/topic/1293903-the-truth-about-terpenes/

As a quick postscript, I wanted to follow up by stating, the product Wuvu posted, has a 1:1 ratio with THC. This is how and when cannabis becomes ‘medicine’ and its efficacy shines. It is because of national and international restrictions, biases and stigma, that the true efficacy of cannabis is hindered by lack of medical research. It is changing and all for the good. There are more studies and research each year than the previous. We scientifically know that CBD mitigates many medical issues when a ratio of THC is present. The GW Pharmaceuticals drug, Sativex, is a cannabis derived botanical of 1:1 THC to CBD. Legal in 15 countries by prescription for a small bandwidth of medical issues. There’s a lot to unpack there!

Cannabinol (CBN) likely has more effect as a sleep aid (getting and staying to sleep) than CBD. I say likely, because there is even less medical/science studies on CBN, and the rest of the minor cannabinoids, than the two primary ones (THC and it’s isomers and CBD). CBN is unique because: it’s mildly psychoactive AND it binds to both the CB1 and the CB2 receptors in the body. CBD binds to neither. It is a known agonist (switches “on” known receptor responses). This, in and of itself, shows excellent potential. CBN is also very unique in that it is not part of the plant synthase - it is not derived from an acid form synthesis (THCa, CBDa, THCVa, CBGa). It is a result of the oxidation or the degradation of cannabis flower/bud. OLD POT. In 2018, we used it as a test of post harvest degradation, as how long has the harvest been sitting around for. Elevated CBN percentages correlates to older flower. Oversupply. With the “ink” barely dry on CBD, the market sector is off running with the lesser known cannabinoids. The lesser cannabinoids are so speculative, with limited studies and even legality issues to make any kind of claims but with that said, I believe more in CBN than CBD as a sleep aid. Thank you for mentioning it. ????

I am a consultant/scientist, here in Thailand working with CBD dominant genetics as well as extraction. We produce a 10% CBD and MCT sublingual product. I can use the opportunity to shamelessly pitch you on my company’s product but would like you to consider a few things first. I wrote about the role and efficacy of CBD in this post and would advise you to read it: Using CBD as a sleep aid is a “movement” magnified on social media. Because it has anti-anxiety effects it has been co-opted as a sleep aid and this is the furthest thing from the truth. It has more placebo inducing sleep effect than the CBD itself. It is NOT a sleep aid. The anti-anxiety effect only works in the presence of THC. CBD modulates all the effects of THC, not being able to bind to Endocannabinoid receptors on its own. Other than known analgesic and anti-inflammatory effects, I would first recommend THC (smoking and edibles), melatonin or sleepy time tea if you’re looking for a good nights sleep. As I wrote in the linked OP, CBD is binary: it works or it doesn’t. It may work for you but still not deliver a good nights sleep. If you are a first time user or considering using it, I would suggest other alternatives first. And, to directly answer your question to dosage: There is no standardization of any two products on the market as to percent CBD to percent CBD oil in the product. Therefore, to suggest a dose is nebulous. We studied competitors products throughout SE Asia. They range from a half of a percent of CBD to diluent to 2% CBD. I would like to point out the percent concentration on the post above is less than obvious and not stated at all. It is a 5% concentration if you do the math. Don’t all CBD users do the math? ????

The ethyl alcohol (ethanol) does the extraction. It’s a polar solvent and takes everything with it, chlorophyll, waxes, water, etc. Though some cannabinoids will dissolve in the coconut oil (not as efficiently as an alcohol or hydrocarbon solvent), it’s the MCT’s (medium chain triglycerides) in coconut oil that gets it into your bloodstream by bypassing the liver (first pass metabolism) without diluting it or changing it (11-OH-THC). This will also lead to faster onset of effects - a bonus! MCT Not in the refrigerator. Leave the fluff out and nice it up as you use it - whatever makes the medicine go down. Create your concentrate in an amount that befits your usage. Spot on. ???? It’s the residual ethanol that makes it taste like crap. A low and slow vac purge and you won’t need the cocoa….

Good advice. Cool dark environment. The airspace between the extract and the lid creates oxidation, that will degrade it as fast as microbial or fungal contamination .Try to minimize it. You should not be extracting flower that has had either.

Sugar=microbial growth. Add your ‘other’ ingredients as you use it, not before. Keep it cool, dark and with very little ‘headspace’ (column of air between the extract and the lid)

One table of 200+ around 5-10 days to chop.. The purple sticky is Cherry Abacus CBD (11-13%). The 2 liter colas (????) are old school Aurora, NL’s, NYC D and Blueberry. IMG_1093.mov

Sorry for that redundancy. It was mis-posted….????

Not sure if external links are allowed: https://www.sfgate.com/cannabis/article/cannabis-farms-infectious-pathogen-18115205.php

Didn’t know that was an actual thing! Must have been invented by a mouth breather.????

It’s a concerning issue in the states for sure and all commercial grow ops are becoming hyper vigilant over it. it’s a plant specific, RNA HLVd (Hop Latent Viroid) pathogen affecting outdoor crops (for the moment). It is particularly insidious because it lies dormant until there is a secondary stress event that weakens the plant, I.e High temp/low humidity (high VPD) or insect predation. It presents (visually) as a nutrient deficiency: stunted growth, low mass, chlorotic leaves, brittle stems. It is believed to be spread by aphids and has been affecting many grows. There is little to be done other than to use ‘best practices’ with crop cleanliness and sanitation (build it out). Do NOT bring outdoor plants indoors if you are doing a CEA grow or attempt to clone and propagate indoors. This is not the first time or the only virus that is concerning or has wreaked havoc on cannabis. Mosaic virus (2 types), D. Dipsaci, pseudomonas cannabina, xanthomonas and CCV (cannabis cryptic virus are a handful of other, hard to control cannabis pathogens to deal with. Stoner is correct in the possibility (likelihood) of bringing it over and none of us should be surprised if/when it happens. Introducing plant pathogens across borders is nothing new. Phylloxera (though not a virus) wiped out most of the wine grapes around the world in the later part of the 19th century and let’s not forget the potato famine in the mid 19th century. Some cheap FYI advice for all the growers germinating “imported” seeds: sanitize your seeds with a 1% hydrogen peroxide (H2O2) solution.. 1 part hydrogen peroxide to 2 parts water. Soak for 12 hours prior to germination. This preventative technique will also improve germination rate by over 50% as well as knocking down bacteria, virus, mold, spores, etc. The seeds in my op have a phytosantiary inspection, that were required by the Thai FDA.

Is there any science behind grinding weed? Funny you should ask? Yes. All the yummy organoleptic properties (taste, aroma, smells and flavors) are in the trichomes. The rest, vegetal matter, carbs, lignin and cellulose. Weed is more than THC. Flavones, terpenes, polyphenols and other cannabinoids will be delivered more uniformly in every hit with grinding and deliver a fuller ‘experience’. Uniform combustion and delivery assures a faster onset through the blood-brain barrier. To grind or not to grind? That is the question. The answer: grind. (IMHO, of course! ????)

Compounded, even more so, by cannabis being a hyperaccumulator plant, up-taking all heavy metals and toxins from the soil (or substrate). It is this very reason that cannabis (hemp) was a soil mitigation crop for treating contaminated soils. This all translates to: glyphosate’s sprayed ‘around’ cannabis will contaminate soils for 6 months, having low mobility, will be taken up by hyperaccumulators like cannabis for all to enjoy in every puff. Indoor cultivation is not subjected to glyphosates - fortunately.

Not exactly. Some background: Glyphosates are a non-discriminate herbicide that will kill anything (mostly weeds and grasses) in its path. While not being directly sprayed on cannabis, you can believe it is sprayed around furrows and ridges around cannabis. There use on GMO crops only is not correct. To be clear, glyphosates will likely remain the most widely applied pesticide globally, for years to come. It is used and packaged in many different forms and applied across diverse sectors: aquaculture, forestry, major food crops like corn, canola, wheat and most grains, beans, sugar cane and soybeans (where it is predominantly used). 43 of 45 oat based products (Quaker oats oatmeal) tested positive for glyphosates. Monsanto (they developed glyphosates in 1974), understanding that it binds to three specific enzymes in plants, genetically modified seed stock to “switch off” gene expression in these enzymes. GMO seed stock are sold to farmers along with glyphosates. It acts as “lock and key”, killing everything but the crop produced from the seeds. So, yes, cannabis not being a GMO (yet highly hybridized), is NOT immune to glyphosates but yet is/may be used by those farming it. Glyphosates have been widely used in Thailand for decades. You don’t get to be the 4th largest user in the world of pesticides on food crops and escape the use of glyphosates. To say they are never used on cannabis would be misinformation. Palm oil, that has taken over the use of coconut oil (because it’s cheaper to produce on many different models), has become a prime crop for the use of glyphosates. Chlorpyrifos and Paraquat have been banned in Thailand. Paraquat used to be the number one pesticide used in cannabis cultivation, around the world. In 2019 Thailand began steps to officially ban glyphosate’s. Bayer chemicals (Germany) that acquired Monsanto, went on an active campaign, with the help of the EPA and FDA (USA), to influence Thailand in reversing this ban. It remains in use and the ongoing story is extremely controversial. The WHO (World Health Organization) has classified Glyphosates as likely carcinogenic. There is enormous politicized controversy, not only around the outsized influence over Thailand by the USA, in its use of glyphosates, but by medical studies of glyphosates being co-opted by BIG companies like Bayer, with the help of federal agencies. BIG companies=BIG $. This, of course, is at the expense of world health. A simple internet search on Glyphosates and human health will yield the following (in many different forms): (This is from the NPIC, National Pesticide Information Center) What happens to glyphosate when it enters the body? In humans, glyphosate does not easily pass through the skin. Glyphosate that is absorbed or ingested will pass through the body relatively quickly. The vast majority of glyphosate leaves the body in urine and feces without being changed into another chemical. The Environmental Protection Agency says: No risks of concern to human health from current uses of glyphosate Anyone buying this? Raise your hand. The controversy continues in masking the hazards and dangers of glyphosates by lobbyists and special interest groups in medical studies around the world. Glyphosates are truly insidious and bind tightly to soils and have a half-life of about 6 months. There is strong evidence that they are: Carcinogenic (liver and kidney) Endocrine disrupters Reproductive ailments, maladies and developmental issues Cause risks in pregnancies and breast milk inflammatory disorders Metabolic disorders Disrupt mitochondrial function The only safeguard in limiting exposure to glyphosates is in buying “certified organic”. The term “organic”, in and of itself is controversial but guarantees you glyphosates and an infinite list of other pesticides, we’re NOT used in the farming practices of what you are consuming.

A couple of points I’ve made before but are relevant to the dialogue: That list, the one everybody goes by, are not the official laws but the official stance. “No import, only seeds” is the stance not the law. Heard it, argued over it a million times. The following (below), opened the floodgates in Thailand, overnight, and were NEVER rescinded. They were designed to fill the nascent market but had no regulatory body of enforcement. My company, prior to these laws, began the process over three years ago with medical CBD (grow, sales, processing, export). When the ‘edict’ of legalization came, we were immediately fast tracked. FYI: Hemp=weed (bud) duh On January 29, 2021, Thailand will begin processing applications for licenses to produce, import, export, distribute, and possess hemp (Cannabis sativa). The specific requirements for this significant step in Thailand’s ongoing development of a regulatory regime for hemp are contained in the Ministerial Regulation Re: Application and License for Production, Importation, Exportation, Selling or Possession of Hemp, which was published in the Government Gazette

Thailand is the fourth ranked pesticide consuming country, globally. Yes, any outdoor weed farming done here, especially at scale (like an actual business ????) - you can bet on it! Glyphosates are THE WORST!

That is correct information. I remember it vividly from the early to late 70’s. It was also cured like Malawi Cob as well if you were fortunate. Sometimes, it was coated in kief (never opium as some have suggested). And yes, it was mainly from Laos, some came out of Cambodia but it all passed through Thailand. As a result, this is why there is no PURE, true landrace Thai genetics (I see a huge contentious argument heading my way! ????). Yes, I know, there is always the Obi-Wan Thai grower that has the “real deal”….. I am familiar with SE Asian landrace phenos, That is what they should be called. The very nature of 60 years of outdoor growing will lead to genetic drift through pollination. If you experience seeds you know what I’m talking about……. So refreshing to have factual info coming out of dispensaries and seed banks. A rarity. Thank you.