WDSmart

I think you've misunderstood some of my answers: 1. I don't deny that Israel (Zionists) intend to own all the land. 2. I don't deny "... that the Zionist credo is that all of the "promised lands" belong to Israel." That doesn't mean I think their "credo" is legitimate. I disagree with it. 6. No. "Is the indiscriminate bombing of Palestinian towns, killing 20,000 people not a war crime?" If you remove the "not" from the question, I'd have answered, "Yes." I do think it was a war crime. 7. No. Same reasoning as 6.

To answer your question, we have given a very small fraction of the land back, but I do not want to imply that is justice. It's much the same as Israel has done/is doing with the Palestinians, forcing them to live in "reservations" like Gaza and the West Bank. Do you think what my forefathers (USA) did to the native Indians was wrong? If so, why do you continue to support Isreal? There, at least, both have some claim to the land, so a two-state solution is what I think should be done. But you have already stated you think Israel should own ALL the land, and the Palestinians were either eliminated or kept as second or third-class citizens with limited rights.

I don't deny that Oct 7 was the reason for this most recent armed conflict in this at least 85-year-old conflict. If Oct 7 hadn't occurred, Israel would just keep on seizing Palestinian land, and the world would not pay much attention to that. The Israeli response has cost Hamas and Palestinians dearly, but it has put this conflict back in the spotlight of the rest of the world. Israel should not forget about the treatment of the hostages. They should do everything possible to ensure their quick return, and that would be agreeing to a permanent ceasefire. I'm sure the Palestinians will not forget about the indiscriminate bombing and invasion of Gaza, either. All this is a no-win situation.

I can answer them without requiring any evidence... 1. No 2. No 3. No 4. Yes 5. Yes 6. No 7. No

And so have the Arabs/Muslims/Palestinians, right?

That's a good question. I think the Palestinians continue to fight and commit attacks such as Oct 7, to shock the world enough so they will look into this situation and help enforce an equitable settlement. This is just IMO, but I can think of no other reason, except maybe just frustration and revenge.

The computer my forefathers stole is way out of date, and the party they stole it from now has access to new ones. They do talk about the theft somewhat, but most of the family are not militant about it. Those that are have filed suits, and they are working their way through the legal system. Restitution for the theft has been paid to some, and some claims are still pending.

A big part of this topic, "Israel is at War: General Discussion," is trying to figure out why people like you blindly and unconditionally support Israel and do nothing but disparage people who present the perspectives of both sides of this conflict. So, I think pointing out what you think and are is very pertinent to this Topic.

Why do you keep turning this argument around? We (Aussies and Yanks) all know what our forefathers did was wrong. Now we see it being done in Israel. That's why we are against it. And YOU seem to also think what was done in our home countries was wrong (I think, do you?). So if you do, why are you defending Israelis for doing it now? If I went into someone's house and stole their computer and never gave it back, that would be wrong. If you saw someone else, maybe a member of your family, also stealing a computer, would you think that was okay because I got away with it?

Yes, "agree to a deal." I agree, but there has been no "deal," only a proposal (an ultimatum, it seems) by Israel. A "deal" is something that has to be developed through negotiations. I hope that a real "deal" can soon be reached.

Thanks you for your honesty in stating your position. You are despicable.

I heard that on CNN, that Hamas was demanding a "permanent" ceasefire and withdrawal of troops. I'm sure there are other conditions, just as Israel can propose other conditions. But a "permanent" ceasefire is one that CNN has reported.

Yes, if they want the hostages back. But, they don't have to say "Hamas has won." They have already bombed and killed 10s of thousands of Palestinians. I don't think Hamas would call that "winning." I do think BOTH sides could "win" if they sat down and worked out a two-state solution. But, that's probably wishing for way too much, especially right now.

Yes! Or how my forefathers treated the indigenous American Indians. You seem to think that was wrong. I agree. But now you don't seem to think what Israel is doing is wrong. Why is that?

Guess what? This conflict did not start on Oct 7. That is just the second-most recent atrocity that has occurred in this at least 85-year-long conflict. When will you accept that? I just don't understand your inability or unwillingness to acknowledge the history behind this conflict. It's not easy to spot an antisemite. Many are very good at concealing their hatred of some of the Semite people. I have never demanded a ceasefire without also recommending a reciprocal release of hostages. Many of "you" do demand a return of hostages without a ceasefire. But now that you mention it, I believe if Israel did implement a ceasefire, Hamas would return hostages. And if that ceasefire was promised (with assurances of a 3rd party) to be permanent, I believe Hamas would gladly release all of the hostages.

Why, then, do you always blame the Palestinians for everything and never the Israelis? Why, then, do you think Israel is entitled to own and control all the land in question. Why, then, do you support the IDF's bombing and proposed invasion of Gaza? What reason do you have for all of that other than the ones I proposed?

Israel can secure the return of the hostages anytime they want. They just need to negotiate a ceasefire, "permanent" I think is now what Hamas is demanding, and probably some other things, and then the hostages will be returned. What I think we'll find out, however, is that there are not 130+ live hostages, but some number less than that. And that might be a lot less than that. 😞 But that number will do nothing but go down the longer Israel and Hamas do not reach an agreement.

So it was me that caused this war and not Hamas ? Yes. It was certainly people like you who think Israel can do nothing wrong, is the God-given owners of the land in question, and that Palestinian Arabs are like vermin that have to be eliminated. That is indeed the cause of this at least 85-year-long conflict.

Okay, let's keep it to the "present day." In that case, Israel has no justification for what it's doing right now or threatening to do in Gaza. Hamas has done nothing to provoke that today.

Okay, I've posted my proposal of how to end this conflict probably 50 times. Now, I'd like to see a proposal of how to end all this from each of you three, @Bkk Brian, @Wobblybob, and @Nick Carter icp.

Yes, that's what I've been saying is the possible result of these two sides not being able to reach a two-state solution. There needs to be more negotiations, and those negotiations need to be led by both sides' allies, who need to put a lot of social, political, and economic pressure on both sides to help them end these awful conflicts.

The current agreement was not an agreement. It was a proposal, or really, an ultimatum, authored by Israel. It included more than an exchange of hostages and prisoners and a six-week ceasefire. It included some kind of demand for a list of hostages (all?) and their status - or something like that. I'm not sure about this. Anyway, that demand seems to have been the one that Hamas rejected for some reason. I don't know why, but in an earlier post, I proposed three possible reasons. Anyway, it was not an agreement and was rejected by Hamas. The two sides and their allies need to continue talks and refine the proposal so it is acceptable to both sides.

Yes, they would not like that, but that's what negotiations are all about. The UN and their allies have influence on them, and they should use it to include a peacekeeping force as part of any ceasefire deal, especially one that includes a two-state solution. I would demand this because I don't trust either one of them to keep their promises in any deal.

I have NEVER depicted Hamas as "heroes," especially after their barbaric terror attack on 07 Oct. Their actions then were despicable, just as are the Israeli's continuing bombing and invasion plans of Gaza. And, atrocities like this on both sides have been going on for at least 80 years. The dates I pick are not random. It was in 1947, 85 years ago, when the UN divided the land then called Palestine into two states, an Arab state and a Jewish state. This is when, in the modern era, you could refer to as the "day the war started." Below, I've inserted a link to details about this UN resolution. I'd advise you to read it, and if you don't want to do that, at least look at the map of Palestine's division. You can then compare that to the current map of Israel, of which Gaza and portions of the West Bank are the only remaining Palestinian areas. That will show you geographically what losses the Palestinians have suffered over the years because of the continuing, forceful Israeli occupation of their territories. Oct 7 is just a continuation of that conflict. United Nations Partition Plan for Palestine - Wikipedia

That's the core of our disagreement, the cause for the start of this war. The "cause" goes way back before Oct 7. That is just the second-most recent attack in this at least 80-year-old conflict. I believe Hamas will release at least some of the hostages under the right agreement, and that agreement, IMO, would have to include a ceasefire. The longer the ceasefire, the more hostages I believe Hamas would be willing to release. A PERMANENT ceasefire (guaranteed by the UN) would be necessary for the release of ALL the hostages - again, IMO. The hostages are Hamas' only bargaining chip. If Hamas released the hostages, they would have no leverage on Israel, and Israel could then just continue to freely bombard and invade Gaza and even the West Bank. The return of the hostages has to have some reciprocal concessions by Israel.