Paagai

It's the dodgy spirits that require the ghoulish offerings.

The nicer spirits are mostly vegetarians.

Dodgy spirits also require stairs up to their abode, hence the stairs up to the small house in the picture.

Thank goodness my spirits require neither stairs nor pigs and are strict vegetarians!

My spirit knowledge is a bit rusty, I suppose the stairs are required due to lack of wings or "zap me up" powers

I worry about my spirits, they clearly have a drinking problem - does that make them of the dodgy kind?

They are apparently not just satisfied with the pigs head (yep, we've done that ), but must have whiskey too. And your average bottle of LaoKaoo, or even Benmore just won't cut it. Nope, it must be Johnny Walker Black

But they must have real mystic supernatural powers, you leave them the open bottle, pour a small glass for them, pray and leave. Miraculously when you return the bottle has disappeared..................

Apparently the new downstairs bar Metro is finally now open for business! I hear it is extremely smart, with no expense spared decor and attracting quite a crowd. Adam's Apple, upstairs should be open in about 6-8 weeks from now with a staff of sixty plus. Should be interesting

Rumour has it the new bar along the road, next to Spirit House will be called Cockpit.......... aptly, if somewhat unimaginatively named if what's been promised is true

Another rumour is a large new Gay boutique hotel complete with bars and entertainment venues is coming to Chiang Mai soon too. Anyone hear about this?

Now, don't get too excited or toss me and this post out with the bathwater but someone, foreign woman, told me tonight that the D2 bar has now been turned into a high class bar girl joint. I believe she was serious.

Ultimately, despite the pretences of its owners, any bar or venue is defined by the clientelle that go there, and in the current climate (e.g see Shangrila/Meridien thread) I guess owners are welcoming allcomers.

A friend tells a great story which illustrates the point (bar boys rather than girls but same thing). He took a guy (bar boy type) for the first time to a well known upmarket wine bar off Nimanhemin, who's owner would tell you he runs a sophisticated whore free venue . So apparently sitting at the bar are several of the great and the good (their opinion ) of the Chiang Mai retired queen scene along with their "trophy boy" partners.

Of course, my friend's companion knows several of said trophy boys from their past lives, not to mention one of the bartenders who used to be a dancer in a different type of establishment and says to my friend in all innocence, "wow this place is real nice and expensive, how much is the off fee?"

First impressions can be lasting........

hmmm...i don't know if that is quite what i'm looking for! are we talking "massage" parlors or massage parlors? if the former, no thank you. if the latter, still probably no thank you! i am just looking for a straight-up professional massage by a man, and a place that advertises that it's man-on-man strikes me as somewhat less than straight-up and professional. back home real spas have masseurs and masseuses with clients of either or both sexes, no weirdness in having either preference. i'm just wondering if that can be found here.

Maybe need to dispell some myths here Whilst most of the "Massage for men by men" places (of which there are many in CM) are targetting gay male customers and offer massages with a "happy ending", this is entirely optional and unofficial. Most of them are fairly respectable looking places, nice decor, furnishings, relaxing environment, private rooms, uniformed staff etc and at least some of the staff are good well trained male masseurs (though some are just slap the oil on for a tip guys). Some places certainly have female clients who are only there for the massage and some pampering. So most (not all ) aren't as sleazy as you might think. There are others which are more straight laced and offer full spa sevrvices where hanky panky is not the norm. Sanctuary spa, miracle spa and All seasons for example.

They usually have a selection of both gay and straight masseurs some of whom can be quite hunky. Several also have websites with pictures of the masseurs and offer an outcall service - so if you're worried about what you might find if you visit a massage parlour you can dial a hunk instead The managers are usually quite helpful and can help pick the right masseur if you explain what you want (and if you wanna be sure of no naughty stuff pick a gay one )

One place that is rumoured to be a muscle guy haunt is nagaraj (nagarajsauna.com) not sure women are allowed in but I'm sure they could arrange outcalls Or for a really strong massage there is the blind massage in Santitham, know several people go there when they need a real massage to relieve aches and pain and they have male massuers. From the Santitham traffic circle (haa Yak Santitham) take the road with the police box - the massage is about 150 meters on the left. Actually justy round the corner from ITM.

Would the gays on this forum report an under age boy in boystown/or other gay areas.This should/must be disgusting to the gay community the same as the hetro community.

Reporting a boy would be hard, not sure who you'd report them too, and could be dangerous, you might be misunderstood end up in a lot of trouble yourself TIT.

But, offenders can easily be reported:

www.hots-th.org/report.php this is the organisation that ran the "Stop the Child Sex trade" Campaign a year or two back.

My 6 years in Pattaya and i wouldnt know were to go for underage boys/girls but certain areas of Pattaya and Jomtien are very sordid,and not realy classed as a good tourist area to go to..

Never been to Pattaya but even I know Sunni Plaza has a reputation as the Pedo hangout.

I agree that kindergarten is probably hyperbole, though it would be better if Paagai confirmed that himself.

Yes, it's a tongue in cheek nickname not to be taken litteraly! PB's "Junior High" is probaby accurate though. Early teens up would be my estimate, hard to say and its not likely they'd show you any ID to proove or disproove this if anyone asked.

Paagai is no saint, but he vocally criticizes the pedophiles.

Lound crashing sound as halo smashes on floor In a former life I must have been a Catholic Priest

One of our posters labeled those places as 'junior high' four years ago.

Things are getting worse, current nickname is "the kindergarten"

Are you saying they're actually under-age? Or just that there's a big gap in age? If the former then that's more than merely a reason to not like those bars so much, that would make it very urgent and important to report this to police, or your local friendly tourist police volunteer if that's easier.

I suspect it is the big age gap, Winnie. That somehow offends the hypocrites of the world. Although I don't frequent gay bars, it certainly is in your face in Jomptien area where I have a time share. As much as I keep hearing about the paedophilia in Thailand from other places in the world, it certainly hasn't been my observation. I would be hard pressed to find it anywhere in the open, and would have to do some serious searching in the sleezy corners of Thailand. Other places in the world are just big hypocrites and try to act like they are somehow better without truly understanding the culture in Asia. There is just as much nasty stuff of all types: drugs, theft, child prostitution, etc, going on in other places in the world but the hypocrites try to say it's not happening. The Thais seem much more open about their sexuality and there isn't the same stigma about gays or transvestites.

Well PB has explained it much more forthrightly than I would have dared It's not the age gap, I along with most other Farang living here would certainly be hypocritical if I had a problem with that.

What goes on is more open, though maybe not as obvious as Ian thinks. Most people who didn't know wouldn't give the group of hill tribe teenagers who hang around the motorbikes and food stalls behind the D2 a second thought.......... And Winnie you can be certain the BIB knows what goes on but TIT. Just like they know what goes on at Kad Suan Kaew too

Ian raises an interesting point; actually I don't think most Thais are really bothered by the situation, if some hustler is younger than he should be so what. "live and let live" as Catmac said, afterall he's just making a living to support his family. The problem actually comes from the moral objecters from western culture bringing and trying to impose their values on Thailand. If it wasn't for various foreign NGOs pressurising the BIB nothing would be done at all. The motives of these NGO's are often very questionable, but that is exactly why Gay people should stop giving them sticks to beat us with. I could go on but.........

I'm not sure what is bothering Paagai.

He says that the bars at the Night Bazaar used to be lots of fun and an enjoyable place to go, but there was always lots of prostitution there and most of the male prostitutes in Thailand have always been straight. Nothing has changed, except a lot of gay bars have moved to other areas. What is so terrible about these bars now?

UG, I was trying not to spell it out cos it always gets the mods upset Let's just say what bothers me is the age of some of the hilltribe boys And what bothers me is gay Farangs coming here to exploit the situation. My viewpoint is not that of a moral do-gooder but of a gay person concerned about the way preconceptions about gay people are reinforced by the behaviour of a few . For example, I really don't like my mother saying "you're living in Thailand, please tell me you're not one of those pedophiles".

You're right, nothing much has changed over a couple of years with this situation, except before the Peak had some life to offset the Sleaze down the road, now it doesn't. Also, back then the whores at the Peak were predominately gay

Indeed - single gay tourists to CM are a very rare breed these days, fortunately, most of the sex tourists seem to prefer BKK and Pattaya. The Night Bazzar bars are now inhabited only by the real low life sexpats who get all gays a bad name with their activities and predilections. IMHO the bulldozers can't come soon enough!

Paagai, you've been knocking the Night Bazaar bars for quite a while. At the time, I disagreed with your previous comments that amounted to an obituary for something that hadn't died at that point - though I do agree the place has now declined in "buzz" as so many places have closed. But - to say that they "are now inhabited only by the real low life sexpats who get all gays a bad name with their activities and predilections" is just plain wrong. It's also offensive to those who still go there who in no way match the label you're trying to stick on them.

Have to agree with you Steve2UK, Paagai has been hooked on this "holier than thou" nonsense for some time. Though I'm now happily settled with my 38 year old b/f (been living together for over 5 years), I remember with joy the wonderful times I had at the old Night Bazaar bars. Live and let live is my motto.

Nobody ever described me as holy before I'm sure none who met me could ever form that impression

More context: there's two groups of outdoor beer bars that collectively get called the "night bazzar bars". The Peak bars clustered around the now defunct climbing wall, and the other alley behind D2 hotel (and formerly between the Peak and the Chiang Inn before it became the D2).

Catmac is absolutely right, 5 years ago the Peak bars were a blast, great fun, I have wonderful memories too Friendly Thai and Farang gay people hanging out, having a drink, a laugh and a chat with few commercial undertones. But times have changed, and these places haven't kept up, except the commercial aspects have become more prevalent. The Peak is dead, as even winniethekwaai, who I assume is neutral, has observed Many more fun places now in CM; not just my opinion, most friends from the old Peak have also voted with their feet.

To answer Steve2UK, my comments weren't aimed at the person who still goes to the Peak, if you enjoy it, fine. However, the bars behind D2 hotel are another matter. For the benefit of our straight TV members, this is the strip of bars down an alley next to Foxy Lady (Or Poxy Lady as the Katoeys call it ). Supposedly "gay bars" but several are owned by straight people and many of the staff are also not gay. Every night the place populates with young straight hilltribe boys (mainly Akha and Musser) cadging drinks off Farang old enough to be their grandfathers. I'm not going into graphic detail on TV but the following is from City Life a couple of years back which does The Other Side of the Coin - not that I entirely agree with everything in the article, but the message is clear. Citylife - maybe its time for an update.......

Steve2UK, my problem is this: whilst I'd be happy to "live and let live" as Catmac puts it, and I'm definitely 100% not a prude , not all is as it should be with these bars as we all know When ALL gay people and not just the few real purpertrators get tarred with the same brush. By frequenting these places, even innocently, gay people are implicitly condoning the activities of the minority and financially supporting venues which we'd be better off without. If you find this insulting, tough!

On a high note we've learnt from this thread that the Pink Baht is certainly not dead in Chiang Mai and we've got two new aspiring gay friendly venues in the Olde Bell and The Queen Vic to visit and enjoy Hey, Millwall Fan - how about a discount for CM Long Yang Club Members (Gay Social Club)?

Tusker's has had a quiz night, and the un-Irish Pub, and another place I forget, near Adam's Appn.

The other place is Garden Bar at Lotus Hotel on Viangbua Road, as already mentioned by other posters. I think their monthly quiz is tonight.

Also, why did advertising in gay websites back-fire for the Queen Vic? If anything it would send out a message that they're welcome?

It was rather a false welcome though......... People go there with an expectation from where its been advertised that its a Gay bar (let's face it QUEEN vic ) Then they find that there's not a gay person in sight and most of the customers are, well how can I put it........"a tattooed Blackpool chav, struggling to stand upright" Hat tip to Texpat in another thread for that one

I stopped going to the QV a couple of years back after a some "lousy service" experiences (not becuase of any gay issue); otherwise the place wasn't too bad. But it sure did attract some punters who you wouldn't have described as gay friendly

Should stress this was under the previous management, before someone turns this into a QV versus whoever thread

When I stayed there in February there were a couple of obviously gay staff... which made me think it must be 'gay friendly'. It was really quiet, I only saw a couple of people in there.

Like I said "previous management" (Let's not go there...........) Sounds like it might be time to go back

Is it possible that they were trying to attract gays so that the skinhead customers would have someone to beat up? That is some convoluted business plan.

Of course, there is a whole gay skins sub culture, perhaps some of the customers were closet members looking for new friends It often transpires the most homophobic people actually have something to hide

Just out of curiosity, what exactly does 'Gay Friendly' mean? Over the years we've had plenty of gay customers but no-one ever treated them any differently to anyone else. The staff are friendly to all customers .

My guess is that you have hit on the perfect definition. Most gays don't want special treatment. They just don't want to go somewhere where they are not welcome. Am I right guys?

UG you're right on the money with that one

Also, why did advertising in gay websites back-fire for the Queen Vic? If anything it would send out a message that they're welcome?

It was rather a false welcome though......... People go there with an expectation from where its been advertised that its a Gay bar (let's face it QUEEN vic ) Then they find that there's not a gay person in sight and most of the customers are, well how can I put it........"a tattooed Blackpool chav, struggling to stand upright" Hat tip to Texpat in another thread for that one

I stopped going to the QV a couple of years back after a some "lousy service" experiences (not becuase of any gay issue); otherwise the place wasn't too bad. But it sure did attract some punters who you wouldn't have described as gay friendly

Should stress this was under the previous management, before someone turns this into a QV versus whoever thread

Short Story.

one of my kitchen staff went ot the fresh market yesterday as she does most days. She borrowed one of the other girls motorbikes. The police stopped her and as she had no papers for the bike, took her down the station. When the owner of the bike arrived to bail her out (leaving me short staffed i might add), the boys in brown got a bit miffed as they saw the fine money slipping away. As she had left her ID card in her handbag at the Olde Bell, they accused her of being Tai Yai - she didn't even sound Thai according to them (she's from Petchabun as it goes - not an impossible accent to decipher) and wouldn't let her out until my wife turned up with an aggressive attiude and a couple of hundred baht that i was able to return to a full staffing complement. Endemic Racism.

The going rate for a Tai Yai on a motorbike stopped by the BIB seems to be 2K Bt, sometimes even though they've done nothing wrong.........

Hey Paagai, I notice that you like to mention your connections to Shans and SSA. You find a way to work it into an awful lot of posts. Why?

I do? I thought it was only in topics like this..... To answer your question, because I care. Realthaideal's post actually sums it up perfectly

Its a topic I feel strongly about, I have a lot of Tai Yai friends, several of whom have been boy soldiers in more than one army and some are still involved with the SSA. They can tell some tear jerking stories. I also have friends involved in supporting the Tai Yai both in CM and in the Shan State and see on a daily basis how the Shan are treated here in Thailand.

Ethnically the Tai Yai are not that far removed from the Lanna people, or northern Thai. You can't really call them different races (But I'm sure some Anthropologist will explain why I'm wrong.... ). My previous comments were not aimed at denigrating Thai people (I also have many Thai friends who are wonderful people and I love Thailand), rather accentuating differences in atttitudes between the two groups and pointing out the hypocrisy of the Thais who's only real difference from the Tai Yai is which side of a line through the jungle they were born on.

On the other hand, CM is ever more popular with retired gay ex pats .

Sounds like a niche market worth exploring.

I wouldn't want to go so far as changing the name to The Pink Lion, but maybe something a bit more subtle.

Do you know where I can buy one of those mulit-coloured gay-pride flags?

Worth a try.

Yes be subtle and there is business to be had. As an example, I heard the Pub is popular with the gay ex pat crowd, on the other hand the Queen Vic (Previous management - I hasten to add) cynically advertised on several gay websites and got themselves a bad reputation with local gays as a result.

To a large extent the internet has replaced the gay bar as a pick up joint. All most gays want to do is go out and enjoy themselves and they don't need an exclusively gay venue to achieve that.

"Skoi"

What does that mean and/or how would you spell that in Thai? Never heard of it.. They might call them 'maew' or whatever though.

I'll have to ask someone for the correct Thai spelling as I doubt it's in the dicitonary. My understanding is it's slang meaning something like "the great unwashed" or dirty/smelly. Originally used to describe hippy and rasta types its use has now migrated to a derogatory word for Tai Yai too.

One question: how many Tai Yai people do you really know well? Or were you just trolling?

Come on, just about anyone who has a maid who isn't some relative of their Mrs has one who is Thai Yai.

Just about all of ours were.

Sure, there are many people with tai Yai maids, but how many people have a conversation with them that goes outside work talk? I can't believe there are many Farang who sit down and discuss the SSA and Shan politics and with their maids!

Our gay gays say their drinking venues are migrating to Huay Kaew, Santiam, and Niemamhieman.

Hey PB, you took the words righ out of my mouth sorry, keyboard

I can't help but think that certain key-segments are on a particular decline.

Other segments... : single male travellers.. particularly gays..Driving past some areas that used to have gay bars doing booming business, they were mostly all closed. (Night Bazar etc).

Indeed - single gay tourists to CM are a very rare breed these days, fortunately, most of the sex tourists seem to prefer BKK and Pattaya. The Night Bazzar bars are now inhabited only by the real low life sexpats who get all gays a bad name with their activities and predilections. IMHO the bulldozers can't come soon enough!

On the other hand, CM is ever more popular with retired gay ex pats and there is a trend towards more upscale venues without the sleaze to cater for this customer group. Several new places have sprung up or been renvigorated in recent months including Soho bar, Nimman Kitchen by Krit (truly excellent Thai food BTW - and its not just a gay place), La Vie En Rose (opposite hillside 4 and next to Nimman Kitchen), Sabbai Di (Santitham Guest House) and the soon to open Metro Bar. As well as more established places like the Glass Onion and Spirit House. Whilst I doubt anyone is doing booming business, these places all have a regular expat clientele which increases their chances of survival. The gay business demographic in CM has certainly changed.

It means gibbon. (a type of monkey).

Their call sounds like a repeated 'phua phua phua' which is Thai for 'man', 'husband'. So, it's used for women who are overly slutty in throwing themselves at men.

Frankly I see it used mostly for ladyboys displaying the same trait, but I suppose you could use it with women too.

Either way it's not very nice! Be careful with it even in jest.

Indeed.......

Its used by Gay Thai guys (and katoey) as slang referring to straight girls. Usually for the more dizzie type girls who chatter a lot (again like the gibbon) rather than out and out slut, but basically the same thing.

Wiinnie's caution is wise, a katoey calling another thai would probably get laughed at. A farang trying it in a bar on Loy Kroh would earn a slap in the face........

Not that I have any intention of marrying anyone , but given a choice between a Thai or Burmese (Shan or Tai Yai) the later would win hands down.

Comparing Tai Yai and Thai friends, the Tai Yai are generally much nicer people. Warm, open, genuine, more fun and largely without hidden agendas. Most are also very hard working. Whereas the Thais tend to be much more aloof, devious, xenophobic and mired in hidden agendas, those without some Chinese blood line are also down right lazy .

One thing that pisses me off here is how many Thais treat the Tai Yai's as some lower life form. And the reputation the Tai Yai have for being marauding heathen (which I concede is sometimes deserved) stems from behaviour largely inspired by their treatment in Thailand. Though past history where roles may have been reversed somehow never seems to get forgotten .

Mai Soong Mai Soong

You are making unfounded generalizations about people according to their race.

Sorry, they are not unfounded at all. I was making observations about the behaviour and attitudes of two groups of people I know and talk with on a daily basis. And I never said all Thais/Tai Yais; it was clear I was commenting about people I know.

The same as when some Thais consider all Farangs as rich, drunken sex crazed second class citizens.

Which was exactly my point!

The same as when some Thais consider all Tai Yai "Skoi" which is a favourite insult here.

This is normally an indicator of low intelligence, lack of education and pig ignorance.

Your descriptions of these people stems from a gutter culture based on brain dead philosophy.

Thanks for the compliment

One question: how many Tai Yai people do you really know well? Or were you just trolling?

If you see them try calling "Chennie Chennie" (Spelling?) that should get some attention

Not that I have any intention of marrying anyone , but given a choice between a Thai or Burmese (Shan or Tai Yai) the later would win hands down.

Comparing Tai Yai and Thai friends, the Tai Yai are generally much nicer people. Warm, open, genuine, more fun and largely without hidden agendas. Most are also very hard working. Whereas the Thais tend to be much more aloof, devious, xenophobic and mired in hidden agendas, those without some Chinese blood line are also down right lazy .

One thing that pisses me off here is how many Thais treat the Tai Yai's as some lower life form. And the reputation the Tai Yai have for being marauding heathen (which I concede is sometimes deserved) stems from behaviour largely inspired by their treatment in Thailand. Though past history where roles may have been reversed somehow never seems to get forgotten .

Mai Soong Mai Soong

I think those advocating the DIY approach without using an advisor are missing a trick here. This is Thailand, one doesn't employ and advisor/lawyer based on, their qualifications, what they know about visa regs, ability to complete the paperwork etc. One should employ them for who they know at immigration. Then its money well spent....... The trick is just finding the right advisor