Paagai

The lawyer being recommended here "Tom" is in fact not a lawyer. Tom works for the Chiang Mai expats club and is often mentioned as being a lawyer but he is not. We have found out the hard way by loosing 4 million baht by employing someone who is not a lawyer. This is not a personal attack it is a statement of fact. I also think it is very important that all expats know that this person is not a lawyer.

David Wenman

Chiang Mai

Why have you dragged up a five month old thread to continue what sounds like a personal vendetta? Hasn't it been covered already in several now defunct threads? Boring...............

Thanks Paagai. Sounds like you know the route well. I drive down to Denchai often, but usually go south to Uttaradit from there. What's the road like and how much time should I budget from Denchai to Nan? By car, not bike.

I'd say it is a couple of hours from Denchai to Nan. Mostly mountain roads from outside of Phrae to Nan

Thanks for the reply Ajarn. 2 hrs sounds about right. Maybe I'll come back on the scenic route through Phayao.

The road from Denchai past Phrae up almost to Rong Kwang is a good highway but then as Ajarn says, its mountain roads to Wang Sa and a bit more OK to Nan city. CM to Nan can be done in little over three hours if you drive like the crazier Thais, I would say four is more realistic driving safely.

Another alternative from Lampang is to go North on highway 1 to Ngao and then down towards Rong Kwang, about the same distance, but the advantage of highway 1 is not that great since that section is also hilly.

Phayao is also a nice stopover to go eat on the lakefront.

why the need to have a song and dance in the street , thai ppl are thinking <deleted> , who cares , just get on with your life , show your pride by being proud of yourself in everyday life , dont kick up a fuss when u dont get your own way , stop ya moaning and loosen up a bit geez.

Huh? - are u saying that the general Thai people think all this mush? I'm sure the Thai public would love a good free show as usual. They wouldn't think anything like this - they would just enjoy the show. Do you live in Thailand or just making all this up from afar?

LOL ... trust me .. this guy has no clue what "thai ppl are thinking" (sic)

go back to the playground , this forum is for grownups

Don't worry we're here already, Thailand is the playground and is completely devoid of grownups

North through Phayao or south through Denchai?

Through Denchai is fastest, though IMHO the scenery is better via Phayao. Especially if you go across country via Dok Kham Tai and Chiang Muan, very beautiful.

Perhaps you could have regular gay days at Tuskers, in fact really you should be sponsoring this event no?

I hope people will find that Tuskers welcomes all kinds of people equally and that the clientele represents a diversity of people regardless of their nationality, race, sexual preference or age. I happen to think diversity of clientele is a strength for any organisation whether it is a bar, company, club or country. I would have no problem hosting a gay event if the people from the community wanted it. Just as I have hosted events for the Scottish, Dutch and other communities over the past year. These events however were not exclusive to those particular groups but enjoyed by all. Exactly what I was getting at in my earlier post which struck a chord with Orang37.

Have to say on the few occasions I've dropped in with some Tai Yai friends for a Lao beer and a game of pool the staff have always been very welcoming. So that's two minorities catered for........

I used to live in Chiang Rai for a couple of years. Nothing special about the two bars mentionned above. I went there a couple of times. Never got ripped off. Just paid what I had ordered. The only things is that very few of the guys who work there speak or understand English or just a little. So I got bored really quickly.

But the gay community meets almost every night to play volleyball near the river, opposite a big resort. I can't remember the name of the place but people play tennis, badminton or jogging there. Just look on a map it's on a kind of island but in the city centre near the Kok river.

The guys there are friendly, some like to practice their English and it's fun to watch them playing volleyball. They're quite good at it. Some ladyboys too. That was the best way for me to meet gay guys who are not sex workers.

But keep in mind, Chiang Rai is not Bangkok.....

Good luck with your new life

Gay volleyball is popular at Sanam Gila in Chiang Mai too; regular evening event i understand

Also, Gay culture in Thailand, as seen by Thai people (not the western view of it), is very different from that seen and accepted in the west. Take for example the number of ladyboys here and events like lady boy shows and contests which are popular even in small farming communities. The culture here is just not the same. For example, should ladyboys have been banned from the Loy Kratong festival parades for the same reasons?

But 'Gay Pride' parades aren't part of Thai culture - they're a western import.

Agreed, but in this case the western import has been taken over by Thais. And the gay community should be rightly sceptical, think of BKK pride........ on second thoughts lets not go there

Any thai gay event in Thailand would inevitably have loads of guys dressing up as women, even in the provinces where there are no Farangs, and this would be one of the more fun aspects of a Thai Gay pride parade. On the other hand, some of the more blatant displays of flesh which come from western influences are not at all appropriate in public in Thailand.

This thread kinda demonstrates the big concerns about this type of event some in the gay community have - it actually shows gay people are not at all integrated into mainstream society and gives the bigots an opportunity to bash us. I have mixed feelings about the whole thing and am only supporting it because of the HIV angle, which is important.

Had Mplus organised an HIV awareness parade on 1 December (World AIDs day) it may have been a better tactic and wouldn't have drawn the attention and venom that this "Gay Pride" event clearly is.

There are certainly a lot of Gays here and it is no secret that they have large disposable incomes and are not usually trouble makers. Why not a Gay Pride parade?

OK - so when and where is it? times dates venues PLEASE - lets all support it and enjoy

From the organisers website:

www.mplusthailand.com/chiangmaigaypride

One point to note, this thread is talking about the parade, thats only a small part of the whole event called Chiang Mai gay pride - see the link for full details.

I guess its no suprise to see the usual suspects have already started the usual homophobic bigotry. Guess this one will keep the mods busy!

I'm not going to be goaded into a slanging match except to say Thai culture is very accepting of gay people and gay lifestyles; if people have a problem with gay culture among Thai people (This is a Thai event, not a farang party) then maybe they'd be better off living in another country. Rather than denigrating other peoples lifestyles on web forums why not vote with your feet?

David Brown wrote a wonderful eulogy for David Crisp that is in the current CM Expat News edition.

David also made a very eloquent speach at the funeral today, paying tribute to David. Good to see so many of David's friends, Farang and Thai turned out to say goodbye to David and pay their last respects.

RIP David

The organisers of this parade, MPLUS, are an organisation who's main aim is to promote good sexual health in the gay community in Thailand. For more details see: www.mplusthailand.com

I have a question for all those who don't see a need for a gay parade: do you also not believe there is no need to try and prevent the spread of HIV and the loss of young Thai lives that results from it? That is the main motivation of MPLUS, the organisers of the event. Rasing funding and promoting the HIV prevention message is the main reason for the event.

Also, Gay culture in Thailand, as seen by Thai people (not the western view of it), is very different from that seen and accepted in the west. Take for example the number of ladyboys here and events like lady boy shows and contests which are popular even in small farming communities. The culture here is just not the same. For example, should ladyboys have been banned from the Loy Kratong festival parades for the same reasons?

Sounds like Mplus is angling for funding. Why can't these NGOs stop trying to fix things that aren't broken?

Strongly disagree with this. The HIV incidence among young gay men in Chiang Mai is alarming already; MPLUS are about the only people trying to do something about the problem on the streets and educate young people about the dangers of HIV. They deserve praise and all the help they can get. It is a Thai run organisation helping thai people at the grass roots level, and AFAIK, not some farang run do gooder outfit, though I'm sure some financial donations comes from foreigners (USAID is involved I believe, but I'm not certain).

Of course, gay prides will always be contraversial, and in some ways serve as a focal point for demonising gay people and pushing the cause of acceptance backward. However, if it raises funding that stops even one single gay Thai youth having their life ruined by HIV then in my opinion its worth the downside.

I should make clear in the above I mean young gay thais having sex with each other, not with Farangs - before the usual suspects make the usual comments.

TV clearly needs a "get a life" Emoticon. Anyone suggest something suitable, closest I can see is but that's more offensive than I had in mind

Do we have a new forum sponsor?

Get the magentic strip re-programmed and use it as a flash looking card for opening you condo door...... about all its useful for now

Can we get things in perspective? There's perhaps half a dozen posters here who've reported less than satisfactory experiences and a maybe larger number who've said the place is OK (I'm not sad enough to count them). The rest has been a debate about mobile phones. Then we start talking about votes! The number of viewpoints is hardly representative of anything.

Then Dinthailand (and a couple of others) seem obbssed with shouting down anyone who doesn't completely condem the place. What's the motivation, boredom (so go get a life) or a hidden agenda.

Me smells a rat!

if un, cm red lion etc were that bad would they not be empty?? and they aren't are they?

Actually, exactly my point, they are full, but full of the kinda people I'd rather not be in the presence of. If these places were empty I might actually go there

good idea. would leave the other pubs in chiangmai for the rest of us

Enjoy! Anyway, there are so so many much better Thai places to go to where there are no Farangs

Always found the food to be great, the staff friendly and the atmosphere pleasant and homely.

changed your mind about the pub now that so many have pointed out its limitations then have we?

Nope, you just missed the point, I was reffering to UN Irish, Red Lion etc etc which are places I avoid, NOT the Pub. The Pub is OK, for an occasional meal/beer and chat; if I want a good night out then I go with Thai friends to Thai places. It's my choice as to where I like and where I don't and I'm entitled to my opinion, please respect that.

I've always found the Pub management polite and courteous, I'd say the food has actually improved recently, particularly the pies. I've never witnessed any of the kind of incidents described in this thread. Others clearly have different opinions and experiences, or maybe are the owners of rival establishments trying to denigrate a competitor, who knows?

if un, cm red lion etc were that bad would they not be empty?? and they aren't are they?

Actually, exactly my point, they are full, but full of the kinda people I'd rather not be in the presence of. If these places were empty I might actually go there

good idea. would leave the other pubs in chiangmai for the rest of us

Enjoy! Anyway, there are so so many much better Thai places to go to where there are no Farangs

if un, cm red lion etc were that bad would they not be empty?? and they aren't are they?

Actually, exactly my point, they are full, but full of the kinda people I'd rather not be in the presence of. If these places were empty I might actually go there

Most of this doesn't sound like the Pub that I know. Its one of only 3 or 4 Farang run places in Chaing Mai that I'm happy to visit. One reason is the clientele is not the usual bunch of loud mouthed louts (Usually from the UK) and tourists you find in places like the UN Irish, CM saloon, Red Lion etc. etc. etc.

Always found the food to be great, the staff friendly and the atmosphere pleasant and homely. It's not somewhere I'd go for a big night out when in party mode, but it is a nice place to enjoy good food and a chat in a relaxed environment. If the management discourage some of the riff raff from other places then I'd say they're doing a good job

One tea grower in Mae Salong, I think their name is Chok Charoen, does have an outlet at, of all places, the airport. As you might suspect, their stuff isn't cheap, but it is the best quality tea i have found in chiang mai. In fact, it's some of the best quality tea I have ever had. It comes from Mae Salong. This is a Kuomintang village so the local tea growers draw on the tea growing in Taiwan. Taiwan is particulary famous for its oolongs. And the oolongs at this place are as brilliant.

Doi Mae Salong http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Santikhiri is one of my favourite places to visit. Lots of different tea vendors along the main road through the village, fantastic scenery and a fascinating history. Particularly beautiful this time of year with all the trees in blossom, mists etc, though a bit cold.

Go there for breakfast sometimes, or occasionally a burger (I'm not a sandwich person). Much less often these days - just too many farangs - last visit had a prayer meeting on one adjacent table and two screaming brats the parents were doing nothing to control at another. Not what I'd call a peaceful "oasis". (Of course, both Bake and Bite (esp Nimanheminda) and the Dukes can suffer this problem too.)

And you can't even take Thais with you for company; unless they read and understand English very well they can't order anything!

Don't forget that it is by no means impossible that a foreigner/s was/were somehow involved in this story. We simply don't know.

I, too, have wondered about possible complicity of the "housekeeper"/people living at the house, and possibly also the guards, as well as a number of conflicting elements in the reports. The recent party could, of course, have provided surveillance opportunities to a number of people.

It certainly does appear that this ought not be an extremely difficult case to solve. It is therefore very hard to think that justice may not be served (though the report from the person who was interviewed at the scene of the crime may be cause for us to be a little more hopeful). None of our amateur detective work is going to change the course of events to follow, though.

While I'd love to hear otherwise, I really don't see any way we can help serve the interests of justice, other than by keeping this story alive -- respectfully, and with strict attention to facts (as "Mary Jane" and relatives of other victims are doing, painful as it must be). The story has appeared in a number of overseas newspapers, with varying degrees of sensationalism.

I think concerns about the activities of the BIB maybe misplaced. I'm pleased to report they've been quite active knocking on doors in the Shan community in Chang Peuk, and know what they are looking for. Please give them chance to do their job; it may take a while if the suspect has gone to ground.

I'd originally written this post in response to a now deleted comment from Gravelrash. As the offensive comemnts are now gone I've edited the post to remove my reply. However, the last sentence I wrote I beleive offers some good advice:

If you have information about Farangs abusing children, rather than pontificate it about it on this forum, do something positive and REPORT IT. Click This Link for an easy way to do so.

Before the thread is closed, could someone please post a photo of Mr. Crisp?

r.i.p

I wasn't going to post this, but if we must have a picture of David let's at least have a more flattering and respectful one.

That's very sad indeed. What's more sad is that David is being murdered for a second time in the Chiangmai forum by people accusing him of having had dealings with underage males. That's really shameful and TV shouldn't tolerate the bashing of a dead gay man.

Thankfully the thread has now been deleted, and I'm embarrased to have started it given the complete rubbish that was being posted there. This would be a far better location for anyone wishing to post a tribute to David to do so. I'm sure our mods will maintain the thread in that vain.