mjnaus

6 minutes ago, 12DrinkMore said:

If it is that big, then you surely owe it to yourself to find out a bit more?

 

Nobody, not the brightest financial minds, are able to explain exactly what's happening with crypto currencies. So I am definitely not alone in this. I'd rather admit there's a ton of things we're yet learn about rather than claiming I know it all and sound like a fool. 

I know enough about it to see it as an exciting experiment. I knew enough about it to be intrigued by it and to start buying Bitcoin when the price was somewhere around $200 per coin. 

What I do not know, is exactly what nobody knows... and that's how all of this is going to pan out. However, that does not entice me to piss all over it any chance I get. IMO, everything that challenges the status quo is a good thing.

5 minutes ago, 12DrinkMore said:

That is a very valid point. At some point, if the crypto stuff is to become useful, it has to meet the real world.

 

Every single time someone buys or sells any crypto currency using fiat currency, said crypto currency is interacting with the "real world". They have these things called "exchanges", designed solely for the purpose of having crypto currencies interact with the "real world".

4 minutes ago, lkn said:

1) what problem does cryptocurrency solve

Start by reading the original Bitcoin white paper. If that does not answer the question for you, I'd seriously advise you to stop engaging as these threads as you clearly lack the capabilities needed to grasp the idealogical concepts behind crypto currencies. 

7 minutes ago, lkn said:

2) what value is being created to justify the price of bitcoin going up?

Since when does "value" need to be created to justify a price shooting up? All that's needed is simply an increased demand. Nothing fancy here buddy, just simply supply and demand economics. If this is so difficult to grasp, then, again, perhaps you should stop participating in these threads and get back to playing scrabble?

10 minutes ago, lkn said:

I sort of feel it’s my duty as a responsible citizen to counter all the misguided hype around cryptocurrencies!

 

That's mighty noble of you sir. Where would the world be without such noble, self-less deeds. 

1 minute ago, lkn said:

You say that us (“the older generation”) have problems getting our head around it, as if it was snapchat.

 

But it’s not like all the young people are actually paying with bitcoins, because it’s a terrible experience (even for the young kids)!

 

I read one guy sent a payment for an online purchase, it took four days for the payment to be confirmed, at which time the price of bitcoin had dropped, so the vendor refunded the payment, and our guy wasted 4 days and two transaction fees.

 

Even cryptocurrency conferences are not accepting bitcoins for tickets, and there was a bitcoin conference with a “cash online” sign for their t-shirts.

 

It is just one big <deleted> joke!

 

What us “old people” can’t get our head around is why can’t people see through it all?

 

Why do people keep hyping it as the next great thing since sliced bread?

 

Of course your last paragraph shows that: Because it has given (some people) great returns. But it’s a zero-sum game, and if the price keeps rising, it makes it even less likely that it will ever be used as a currency, as no-one wants to spend an appreciating asset.

What younger people seem to be better able to understand is that the issues you're mentioning are part of the process. Call it "growing pains" or what have you... They're simply hurdles along the way. Nothing but a technical problem that will sooner or later be solved. Don't forget that before the recent madness, Bitcoin was accepted more and more and I have personally used Bitcoin to pay for a number of things, ranging from coffee to electronics. 

Crypto currencies still have a long way to go. You don't need to be using it as a transactional currency this very instant to "get it". Right now, many people are simply excited about the concept and are happy to be part of the movement. 

Calling crypto currencies in general a "big joke" kinda says it all. Some of the brightest minds in the world are working in this space. But I guess they all better head the brain spawn of some bitter oldtimers and get out of this "big joke" :)

I honestly, honestly do not get the need some people have to piss all over something they don't understand... What is that? Is it's because some people are making some money? Missed opportunity? Is it the feeling the world is passing you by? The feeling you can't keep up with the ever changing world? I am genuinely curious here.

I don't clam to fully understand the entire crypto currency space. But I think it's exciting to something this big happening.... Can we not just let it be, enjoy the ride and see where it all ends?

Fortunately, there are also countries which take a saner approach and counter all the FUD: http://www.trustnodes.com/2018/01/19/switzerland-become-crypto-nation-says-minister

18 hours ago, 12DrinkMore said:

And that is one of the reasons I started this thread, to show the limitations and potential downside of bitcoin. And because of that I get a fair bit of stick and called a btcoin basher. But surely somebody has to balance things out?

Uhm, looking bag at your OP,  you started this thread because you somewhere read Bitcoin is the biggest environmental disaster known to man and couldn't wait to share that little gem with the rest of the world (or TV for that matter). That's why you were "getting stick", for posting clueless articles and making silly statements. 

You want to balance things out? Start by doing some research and learn what's happening in the cryptocoin space, so you'll be better equipped to advice people on how to partake. People will end up taking you a lot more serious if you're coming in with a balanced view, rather then simply jumping on the "crypto's are bad" bandwagon. 

30 minutes ago, 12DrinkMore said:

I have repeatedly asked on this thread for the personal attacks to be subdued.

 

Please do try to address the arguments I have made, which can be neatly summed up in the post by mjnaus. Namely.

 

1. Everybody and their mom understands that usage of Bitcoin as a transactional currency is currently not realistic and not happening (not on a large scale anyway) ... You're beating a dead horse here. Nobody is suggesting to use Bitcoin to buy ice-cream.

 

2. Just like anyone with half a brain understands that crypto's in their current form are not going to take over fiat currencies.

 

Which logically leads to the conclusion.

 

3. Bitcoin serves no useful function other than something to bet on, hoping a greater fool will buy at a higher price.

 

To help you here,

 

you can either defeat it on validity, namely the conclusion can be false even if the premises are true.

 

or 

 

you can defeat it on soundness by showing one or both of the two premises is false.

So simply because Bitcoin currently can't function well as a transactional currency we should proceed and completely dismiss it? You seem oblivious to the fact that up until early 2017, Bitcoin was being used as a transactional currency more and more. I have purchased coffee, food, meds, electronics and more using Bitcoin. Processing time was a couple of seconds and the processing fee a fraction of what regular payment processors charge. Simply because Bitcoin is currently working out its scaling issues, does not make it all of a sudden useless.

You also seem to completely miss the fact that Bitcoin is not the only tool in the shed. There are tons of new crypto's around, and many of them have learned from the issues Bitcoin has faced and is facing. Ethereum is able to process way more transactions per second that the Bitcoin blockchain, and a fraction of the cost. Although it's likely Ethereum will run into it's own scaling issues, these are simply hurdles along the way. If history has taught us anything, it would be that when facing with problems of a technical nature, it's only a matter of time until we overcome them. 

I definitely won't deny that there tons of people getting into Bitcoin and other crypto's looking to make a quick buck. However, that does not dismiss those who have been supporting and involved with Bitcoin from the beginning. There are definitely many, many people who are part of this movement simply because they want to be and because the believe in the ideology behind it. Buying Bitcoin, or other crypto's can be a vote of confidence. I have bought lot's of Ether for that very same reason, I believe in what they're doing and the skills of the team behind it.

You're still approaching crypto's as having a binary outcome: either they take over the world or they die and go away. I am again pointing out that this whole crypto currency / blockchain thing is still in its early stages. We're in uncharted waters and nobody knows how this is going to pan out and exactly what role crypto's will play down the road.

It baffles me though that some people see the need to continue to piss all over Bitcoin and other crypto's. Yes people are speculating and making money, so what? Yes, Bitcoin and other crypto's have their issues and problems to work out, so what? Yes, there are scams happening and bad people are taking advantage of simpletons, so what? 

Can't we just sit back and enjoy the ride? No matter whether you're a believer or a basher, can't we agree that it's pretty exciting what's happening at the moment? 

6 minutes ago, 12DrinkMore said:

44 minutes ago, mjnaus said:

Just like anyone with half a brain understands that crypto's in their current form are going to take over fiat currencies. 

 

Guess I have the other half of that brain. 

 Lol, I guess I forgot to put the word "not" in there, as in "Just like anyone with half a brain understands that crypto's in their current form are not going to take over fiat currencies. "

4 hours ago, 12DrinkMore said:

1. How many of these transactions are simply churn in the the bitcoin system.

 

2. How many are used to buy/sell alt-coins.

 

3. How many transactions involved real world stuff such as food, electronics, vehicles, services

 

4. How long the wait in the mempool was versus how much people are prepared to pay extra to get a faster transaction.

 

5. Statistics over the size and number of transactions going in and out of bitcoin to real currencies.

Why on earth are you so dead set on the usage of Bitcoin as a transactional currency? Everybody and their mom understands that that's currently not realistic and not happening (not on a large scale anyway) ... You're beating a dead horse here. Nobody is suggesting to use Bitcoin to buy ice-cream. Just like anyone with half a brain understands that crypto's in their current form are going to take over fiat currencies. 

So many of the bashers seem to think there's only two possible outcomes: 1) Crypto's take over the existing fiat currencies or 2) crypto's will disappear. This is not a zero sum game. 

Just accept the fact that nobody realistically knows where this is heading... Just enjoy the ride, make some money along the way and support the tech you think has a genuine future.

I order mine straight from the manufacturer's site. They're based in France, but the wallet still arrived pretty fast, about four days with DHL. 

I'd think twice before using any of the scammy resellers in Asia, as there have been reports of compromised wallets being sold. 

Ripple was due a correction after rising sharply the past days. The reason people don't blink an eye is that's very common for crypto's to bounce up and down... Buy and hold I'd say... Watching prices regularly on a daily basis is bad for the heart

48 minutes ago, timendres said:

Putting aside the arguments over "intrinsic value", there is a legitimate reason why the fiat currencies will not be replaced by Bitcoin: contractual obligation.

 You could have saved yourself the trouble, as nobody in this thread has argued that Bitcoin or any other crypto will replace fiat currencies anytime soon, or at all for that matter.

1 minute ago, khunken said:

It does however have true value or value that has a guaranteed worth in purchasing goods & services.

There's only perceived value, nothing more. You might call this "true" value or whatever else floats your boat. Nevertheless, it's hardly "guaranteed". If this value is guaranteed, than why is my dollar worth less every day/week/month/year? 

A currency's perceived value only exists by grace of the trust people have in that currency. Once that trust goes, so does the currency. Governments and banks can and will bent over backwards to maintain that trust, however as history clearly shows, there are no guarantees and currencies do come to an end. 

5 minutes ago, khunken said:

That is a false argument. 12DRinkMore is quite correct about the intrinsic value of any currency note that has value guaranteed by a bank or country. Just because you cannot exchange it in some god-forsaken place doesn't take away from its true value. One would just hold it until later and use or exchange it where it is accepted.

Fine. 12DrinkMore and yourself are right. Wikipedia, myself the rest of the world who know fiat currency has no intrinsic value have it backwards:

"Fiat money is a currency without intrinsic value established as money by government regulation. It has an assigned value only because the government uses its power to enforce the value of a fiat currency. It was introduced as an alternative to commodity money and representative money"

2 minutes ago, 12DrinkMore said:

A THB 1,000 note is not "just a piece of paper", which is a definition you are applying. It is a currency note issued by Thailand as part of the legal tender system. We are discussing the intrinsic value of a legal tender note, not the intrinsic value of a piece of paper.

 

In Thailand no-one is allowed to refuse to accept a THB 1,000 in good condition as payment for goods/services or a debt. This is a legally enforceable obligation and nothing to do with trust. Ultimately if someone continued to refuse the note as payment he would be in court and forced to do so. That is not trust, that is the power of the State coming down to assert its might over the population.

 

I think it is self-evident that if you burn a THB 1,000 note you have definitely lost something, 

 

There is not a single place on the planet where you can legally enforce the acceptance of Bitcoin as a payment for anything. Even the exchanges are not legally bound to accept Bitcoin. They simply offer you a service to buy or sell, which they are totally able to refuse to provide. Indeed, they would be within their rights to insist that the transaction costs are paid in the local sovereign currency and not Bitcoin.

It's a lovely little writeup you've got here, however it does not do anything to indicate the intrinsic value of your 1,000baht note. Again, I'd suggest you look up the meaning of "intrinsic". 

You have lost something; only if you believe/trust in the value it has. Hence the difference between intrinsic value and perceived value. If you were to find yourself in a hypothetical country on the other side of the world that does not accept your 1,000b as legal tender and does not have banks to change it into other currency or something of "value", your 1,000b is now worth nothing more than the paper it's printed on. No intrinsic value... get it?

Anyways, we can debate this all day. I'd venture a guess and say most people would agree that money has zero intrinsic value. However, if you like to think it has, by all means. 

6 minutes ago, 12DrinkMore said:

Tell me why you think the 1,000 Baht note in my wallet does not have an intrinsic value.

For the same reason my billion Zimbabwean dollars don't have any intrinsic value (other then the paper it's printed on).  May I suggest you have a peak in the dictionary and look up the meaning of "intrinsic value"?

Although some currencies have some value in the sense that they are a medium of exchange to acquire other things of value or as a store of value (both of which are based upon trust, hence the point I made in my previous point).

The only intrinsic value your 1,000baht note has, is that of the paper it's printed on...

6 minutes ago, 12DrinkMore said:

95% of fiat is issued by the commercial banks and is backed by the combined assets of millions of borrowers plus their future earnings. These are legally enforceable contracts. The State ensures that the sovereign currency is used by insisting that taxes are paid in the sovereign currency and that it is legal tender for all debts and payments in the country. And the Central Bank is there to ultimately act as a backstop and be provider of unlimited liquidity in the case of a crisis.

Whether any of this holds any water is highly debatable. Either way, we weren't discussing what is backing currencies or other investment vehicles, we were discussing intrinsic value... You brought up the non-existing intrinsic value of cryptos, and I brought up the non existing intrinsic value of fiat currencies and other conventional investment vehicles. No matter who or what you think is backing fiat currencies, they still have zero intrinsic value... 

25 minutes ago, 12DrinkMore said:

I am fascinated by it all. I simply cannot discern any intrinsic value in it whatsoever. Zero. Other than the fervent belief of a bunch of random anonymous people scattered across the globe.

 

No intrinsic value whatsoever eh? Pretty much sums up every fiat currency out there. The same could be argued for bonds and non dividend paying stocks; no intrinsic value whatsoever. One might argue stock represent the value of the company; however without anyone willing to purchase the stock, the perceived value of the company means jack all.

Currency derives its perceived value from trust in said currency, once the trust in a currency collapses, so does that currency. That holds true for crypto's as well as fiat currencies.

7 minutes ago, 12DrinkMore said:

Maybe you could offer an argument in defence of craptos, rather than the two that are mainly used

 

Why on earth would I bother arguing with someone who's clearly highly emotional about the matter? Nothing anyone could say or argue will have any affect; you have missed the boat and will do everything to desperately cling to the idea that you indeed made the right decision... I get it; I would probably feel the same way.

In all honesty, I have no clue what will happen with the different cryptos out there, although I believe in the technology and ideology behind it. I was lucky enough to get my hands on several crypto currencies at the right times and was able to make a fair sum of money selling at the right times. Is some of all this hyped up? Maybe.. I honestly don't give a tiny rat's ass. I will continue to sell and make money doing so. 

While I myself and others like me will continue to make money; those who don't partake will continue to shit all over Bitcoin and other crypto's and continue to come up with reasons why it's evil, why it should be banned, why it's the worst environmental crisis known to man (thanks for that one, hadn't heard it before and almost pissed myself reading it), etc. . C'est la vie... 

28 minutes ago, 12DrinkMore said:

Bitcoin is running on hype and literally hot air. Once the prospect of huge gains fades, then it will collapse as the buyers disappear.

Been hearing the very same meme since Bitcoins inception over a decade ago.... Yet, here we are. Anyways, I do consider your posts to be highly entertaining, so do please keep them little pearls of wisdom coming our way 

You're quoting two different posters mate... lol


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5 minutes ago, Happyman58 said:

Ok i say again  Have you ever met a snake that is mating  I tell you now you wont be the aggressor the snake will I tell you now a snake can move very fast When it is mating you do even have to provoke it It will attack i assure you But we are human and you have to agree with me most people have a fear of snakes  I dont go out to kill snakes but sometimes you have to What u said was right most snakes wont attack you but the fear in the human mind is there Are you afraid of snakes and what would be your reaction if just say one was inside your house

Snakes that are mating and left alone will do you no harm. I have been lucky enough to run into a load of mating cobras several years ago and while keeping my distance, they did not seem to mind our presence at all. So I am sticking to my point; when left unprovoked, snakes will not attack you. Period. Ask any renowned snake expert and they will tell you the same. People getting bitten either by accident (as was the case with the poor little girl in OP) or by provoking/mishandling a snake. 

We have not had snakes inside our house, but we have had snakes, including dangerous cobras in our garden. We either chase them off gently (and typically the snakes will get out of the way rather quickly) or get them removed by experienced snake handlers who set them free in the jungle. Never felt the need to kill or harm any of them.

2 minutes ago, Happyman58 said:

Yes i am one of the 90% who rather see them dead You must be in the 10% and have no fear of them

Just because you fear something, does not automatically mean you have no options but to kill it (we'd be living in one hell of an crazy world if everyone would kill everything it fears). If you run into a snake, leave them be and keep your distance. The snake will not came after you, it won't hunt you down nor will it attack without being provoked. 

2 hours ago, Happyman58 said:

Ok then next time u see a snake and he is coming towards to you just let him bite you because if he lives he might kill a rodent next time after you There he is just balancing the population Keep up the good work

Right. Because we all know snakes are known to chase after and hunt down humans... Virtually all snakes will make haste in getting away when they detect humans. Most snake bites are either accidents or invoked by threatening the snake.

1 hour ago, alex8912 said:

The thing about Thailand legalizing it I don't agree with either. Marijuana is inferior here. It really sucks and no one will flock here for low grade crap.  Thailand would never invest in growing high quality GREENISH weed. I don't even think the extra hot climate can grow good weed like in California. 

You should really do some basic background research before posting such nonsense. A quick Google search would reveal that, long even that long ago, Thailand was renowned for growing some of the highest quality weed in the world.