oldcpu

Typically income is earned from a source country. Taxation depends on additional factors. So for an international brokerage, the earned income (profits) might be taxable based on the (1) the country where the branch of the brokerage one is using is registered/located , and (2) possibly if not a resident of the income source country, then tax may be required in the country in which one is a tax resident (ONLY if that country taxes global income). Thailand does not tax global income. As pointed out, Thailand taxes remitted income to Thailand, if that income was earned after 31-Dec-2023. There are two Thailand ministerial instructions (Por.161/162) which make this clear re: that 31-Dec-2023 date. So knowing the source country of one's income/profit, and the Double Tax Agreement (DTA) with that source country (and Thailand) in regards to one's income is very important. With regard to filing a Thailand tax return, if you have no Thai income, and if you bring no money into Thailand, then you do not have to file a Thai tax return. I tried to get a Thai TIN (tax ID #) last year. My wife applied online for me, and the Bangkok main Revenue Department (RD) sent the application to the Phuket RD to handle. A Phuket RD official phoned our place, and asked us, ... (1) was I staying in Thailand >= 180 days per year (answer : YES), (2) what was the source of my income? (answer pensions OUTSIDE of Thailand), and (3) was I bringing that money into Thailand at present (answer : NO), and (4) how was I able to afford living in Thailand (answer : money brought into Thailand a few years prior when I was NOT a Thai resident). The RD tax official stated; No Tax ID for me, and I did not have to file a Thai tax return if I had no local income and and also if I remitted no money into Thailand while I was a tax resident. another example ... I obtain a German state (old age) pension. The German Thai tax agreement states such pension can ONLY be taxed in Thailand if I am a Thailand resident. Regardless, I submitted a Tax Return to Germany. The German government sent me a letter back, advising me i did not have to submit a German tax return , with my being a non-resident of Germany, and my German sourced income only being a German state pension. So CLEARLY tax returns are NOT ALWAYS required. So when considering the need to file a Thai tax return, it depends on the specific situations. Good luck with your planning and legal tax management. .

Unfortunately when it comes to this forum and the definition of pensions (government vs state) not everyone uses the same terminology. I believe the consensus as you note, is that the word 'government' pensions is nominally to refer to the pension of a 'civil-servant' or an 'ex-military' pension. And the word 'state' pension is referred to as the old age pension that almost anyone (who worked in the country and paid taxes in that country for more than some small TBD # of years) qualifies for. Many DTAs, as you note, distinguish between the two types of pensions, but the DTAs use different wording other than 'government' and different other than 'state' for pensions. This thread is about Aussie pensions , so that is the most important aspect here in regards to the Thai-Australia DTA. As I posted before, DTAs for other countries can be different. The German-Thai DTA has the 'state' (old age type) pension nominally taxable only in Thailand , and I have been told the German-Thai DTA has the 'government' (civil service/ex-military) pension taxable only in Germany. I struggle to find that last bit in the Thai - German DTA, but I have read (on this forum) that is the case. Another example, in the case of the Thai-Canada DTA, where ALL Canadian sourced pensions (and similar remunerations) are only taxed in Canada and not in Thailand. This is not the fabulous deal that it sounds, as Thai income tax rates tend to be less than Canadian in some cases, and it would possibly be better for Canadians in Thailand to have such pensions (and similar remunerations) taxable only in Thailand (and not taxable in Canada). Hopefully, for Australian government pensions, state pensions, private pensions, and similar remunerations, it becomes more clear to all as to the Thailand tax filing requirements.

I assume you are referring to your Canadian OAS, or CPP, or RRSP/RRIF or other similar 'pension' type remunerations from Canada. If that is your only income, even a number of the Tax Advisors (for Expats in Thailand) have stated if one's only income is remitted Canadian pension type remunerations, then no Thailand tax ID is needed, nor does one have to file a Thai tax return in that case (of only Canadian pensions being one's income). However if you have local Thai income, that exceeds the threshold for filing a Thai tax return (in addition to your remitted Canadian pensions), then yes, you do need to file a Thai tax return due to that local Thai income. I assume in your case, you put down 0-Thai baht for your remitted income? I assume that because there is NO PLACE to deduct that non-taxable income on the Thai tax form. Is my assumption correct? Given that, at present time there is no immigration requirement to show a tax return submitted, nor any official indication that such document for immigration will be required in the future (only some paranoid AseanNow scaremongers noting such is possible) - then I don't believe a tax return (nor tax ID) is needed in a case such as yours (if the Canadian pension (or similar Canadian derived remunerations) is the only income one has and is remitting to Thailand) . One needs to be above a certain assessable income level to qualify for a Thai tax ID. Having typed the above, no one is stopping anyone (who has a Thai tax ID) from filing a Thai tax return, even if they don't have to file. I am curious thou - just how did you list your remitted Canadian tax exempt income? Did you simply put down such as a ZERO ?

I pointed out , on this forum, in their questions pages, that one of the tax advisor sites stated the wrong things about the LTR visa. It may or may not have been Expat tax. I can no longer recall. I do recall thou, I recommended in that post, that they update their web page. Maybe they have ... or maybe they have not updated their page. But you clearly have not been tracking this as it is NOT BS. Tax advisor sites have made mistakes here, and they have left their mistakes posted for what some of us consider an excessive period of time. Why? I see only 3 possibilities. 1. They forgot they made the mistake. 2. They did not want to admit they made a mistake as people would lose confidence in them. ... or 3. They did not want to admit they made a mistake because they were trying to drum up business. I don't care which - as I think it pretty much agreed now for all LTR-WP, LTR-WGC, and LTR-WFTP visa holders, they if their only income is remitted foreign income after obtaining the visa, they do not have to file a Thai tax return, nor do they need a Thai tax ID number for that remitted income.

In the past 12-months, the exchange rate difference (comparing the money kept in Australia (Aus$) instead of Thailand (in THB)) , that money in Thailand could have netted one 9% to 12% (timing dependent) due to a BIG drop in the Aus$. So if one adds to the benefit of a strong THB, with 1.5% in a Thai bank, that is 10.5% to 13.5%, or 84,000 THB to 108,800 THB better than cash in AUS$. That is 44,000 THB to 60,000 THB more than the 40,000 THB (AUS$ equivalent) that makes you happy by having your money in Australia. And that is with no agent. Lets consider the agent - If one subtracts say 15,000 THB for an agent, and your 40,000 THB has shrunk to 25,000 THB, while those with their money in Thailand are ahead 84,000 to 108,000 THB due to the strong Thai Baht. The simple financial fact is that if your money is in the wrong currency at the wrong time (such as the past 12-months in Australia) , your approach will cost you a LOT more money if you keep your money outside of Thailand (in Australia). But hey - if it keeps you happy ...

There is no appropriately labelled line to claim the remitted tax income, is tax exempt ,due to a Double Tax agreement. Hence the viewpoint of many of us is if the Double Tax Agreement (between Thailand and the source country of your foreign income) states the income is only taxable in the source country of the income, then per that DTA (and per Royal Decree-18 which calls up the DTA), that remitted income is exempt for the purpose of the tax calculation, and should not be included on a Thai taxation form. There is at least one case where a user on this forum phoned up the Thai Revenue Department (RD) (talking to their help line) and they confirmed what I typed above. However given the amount of attention drawn to Thailand taxation as a result of Ministerial instructions Por.161/162, many more foreigners are now assessing if they have to file a tax return. From what I read many of the local Thai RD offices are not conversant with the content of DTAs, and hence one can not be 100% certain the advice provided by the local RD officials is 100% accurate. ... I tend to believe in the reported phone call to the Thai RD help line, which confirms what I typed ... but others on this thread (and even some youtube bloggers (with a possible conflict of interest)) dispute the Thai RD help line. Best wishes in your approach. My view is IF you are 100% certain your remitted income is tax exempt in Thailand (due to a specific DTA) and if you have no Thai sourced income, nor other remitted income (not covered by a DTA), then there is not need to file a Thai tax return, as in such a case the assessable income threshold for filing a Thai tax return will not have been reached by you. Note - I am not a tax expert. I am just an ordinary expat. Do take care as to whose advice you follow. There are some posting (and advertising) who IMHO have either financial , or simple scaremongering motives.

I am an LTR visa holder. I was able to do this with a yellow book and pink ID card ( in Phuket). I suspect, like Phuket, such residency documents are not required if one has a yellow book & pink ID. That doesn't mean to rush out and get a yellow book, as frankly it can be a real PIA to get.

I think your assumption very very very unlikely for LTR-WP, LTR-WGC, and LT-WFTP where Royal Decree states those visa holders are exempt Thai tax on foreign remitted income, and both BoI and also the RD ( help line) state no income tax return is required for those visa holders if local Thai income less than Thai tax filing threshold.

A factor here is also the foreign exchange rate. The Thai Baht is up 9% vs the Euro in the past year. Pre-1-Jan-1954 Euro savings I brought into Thailand i Dec 2023 and converted to Thai baht is up about 9% ( due to strong Thai baht vs Euro). Add 1.5% earned in a Thai bank and subtract 2.5% average Germany bank interest for Euro and that means I am 8% better off had I left that money in Germany. However this dynamic, and if it is not planned to spend the money now in Thailand, then in such a case now may be a good time to move the money out of Thai baht to another currency. It's very difficult to time such .. but the point I wish to make is when looking at interest rates of different countries, one also has to consider the currency exchange rate. Don't just blindy assume country A is a better place to keep one's money due to their higher interest rate. The relative movements of the currency to the Thai baht is also a big factor.

I would very very surprised. Thai banks want and need the foreign money to retain solvency. If foreign money left ( due to foreigners having no Thai tax ID ), banks would be at more risk of not being solvent. The top level bank managers have massive influence over politicians. They will ensure this doesn’t happen. Money to the banks talks here.

No. It's because we don't share your view and we may or may not have family here, and further unlike you, we may like Thailand. Is everyone in the world compelled to share your view? especially if we believe you wrong? No one is compelling you to stay. Go in the world where you are most happy, and please allow us to do the same.

Yes - i misread your original post. Simply disregard my post that you quoted.

deleted - wrong post

Indeed. The Thai-Canada DTA is such a DTA where Thailand is not to tax the pension, making it exempt (for tax calculation) per Royal Decree-18, and thus non-assessable in Thailand. In that DTA it states (where I added the word 'Canada' and 'Thailand'): In the case of Canada, it makes it pretty clear ONLY Canada can tax Canadian sourced pensions or similar remunerations, and hence NOT Thailand. And from experience I can confirm Canada does tax Canadian sourced 'pensions and similar remunerations' where the Canadian tax rate is not small. Likely it would be better for the person with the Canadian pension if it was only Thailand (and not Canada) taxing such pensions.

Thanks ... i think you are the 3rd person who has posted such or something similar. It is DEFINITELY worth repeating. BoI are quite firm in their understanding. The Thai RD help line in essence said the same thing to one of our forum users. It still disappoints me (and gets me suspicious of ulterior motives) that some so called tax advisors on youtube (incorrectly) stay otherwise.

I think that a bit harsh statement. In addition to the tax code, there are RD ministerial instructions, and Riyal Decrees also governing taxation ( such as RD-18 which addresses Double Tax Agreements (DTA)) where there are dozens of different Double Tax Agreements. Addressing the tax situation of foreigners tends to more complicated than that of Thai locals. It's difficult for the average RD official to stay on top of all of this.

I don't know the precise reporting mechanism nor threshold levels. But I do believe above certain financial levels, global monetary transactions are recorded and per different existing agreements can be and are in cases reported to various governments.

I share your view ... with the added caveat that Joe Blow better have very good income records for any moneys remitted. Looks to me that your hypothetical Thai billionaire (zillionaire ? since he transferred zillions) knows how to legally manage his tax exposure.

And if you had read further, you would also have noticed I typed the following: I made it clear that residency and accessibility were factors ... as the income could be considered not in the 'assessible' income category. i do thou, think it important, one has documentation to prove the income was earned when one was NOT a resident Yep. No argument from me there.

My understanding is (for your case) only if your income comes from Thailand. If it comes from Thailand you need to file a Thai tax return and report that income.

Only if assessable. You should not file if exempt under a DTA, otherwise you encounter the same problems as the OP. What's the point of a DTA if you're required to file for tax? I agree only if assessable income AND if above the Thai tax filing assessble income threshold for filing a Thai tax return. As to the point of there being DTAs? ... it is to avoid double taxation. Not to avoid tax completely. The DTA is to help determine cases where one county may have exclusive taxation rights (and the other country no taxation rights) and to help in the situation where both countries can tax an income (to avoid double tax). There can be cases where legally due to DTAs and Royal Decrees on taxation and due to the source of one's income that: (1) a person pays taxes in both countries (but not above the maximum that they would pay if only one country involved), or (2) a person ONLY pays tax in one country on their income, and not in the other country, or (3) a person pays tax in neither country on their income, or (4) a combination of the above for different income sources. It all depends on how the tax law is implemented, together with Royal Decrees on taxation (such as Royal Decree-18 and DTA contents), Royal Decree 743 (LTR visa) and Ministerial instructions por.161/162. If remitted income to Thailand is exempt in the tax calculation, then it is not to be included in the assessment as to the threshold for submitting a Thai tax return, nor (if threshold reached to file a return due to other income) is the DTA tax exempt income to be included in a Thai tax return. I am not a tax expert - but sadly, seeing some of the mistakes in some of the youtube blogger purported tax advisors, it appears at present, neither are they experts, as perhaps some time is needed to see how this all plays out.

While that makes sense in terms of what I would like to see, sadly I am not so certain of that being accurate. Consider Thai RD Ministerial Instruction Por.162: The resident tax payer, who derive assessable income from ... assets situated outside of Thailand, will hereafter be subject to taxation in Thailand during the year the income is remitted, regardless of when it was earned. This shall not apply to any foreign-sourced income earned before 1-January-2024. So that suggests the income you earned (when not a tax resident to Thailand) can still potentially be taxed by Thailand in year 2026 or any later year if you remit that income into Thailand. But I am not certain there ... as (per what you note) one is NOT a resident tax payer when that income was earned. Having typed the above, dependent on the wording of the DTA of one's income source country with Thailand, the income earned may not be assessable in Thailand and hence not taxable in Thailand .... And further if that income earned (when one was not a Thai tax resident) was already taxed by the source country, then one nominally should have a tax credit if there is a DTA with that income source country that one can use to ensure that one is not double taxed by Thailand. So - sad to say ... this could be more complicated.

Last time an RD official said that to me was over 2 months ago. They never did phone.

Thanks. Using that link and a bit of guessing, for those looking for Thai language versions of the Thai-German, and Thai-Canada DTAs: Canada-Thai DTA in Thai language https://rd.go.th/fileadmin/download/nation/canada_t.pdf German-Thai DTA in Thai language https://rd.go.th/fileadmin/download/nation/germany_t.pdf This may come in handy if needing to point out some DTA aspects to a local RD taxation office (in Thai language). Hopefully it never comes to that need.

... and taxed on local assessable income if a certain assessable income threshold level is reached.