oldcpu

My view is the answer in Mike Lister's main forum and that of the regular poster Chiang Mai was suspect, and I prefer the answer provided on the official Thai Revenue Department tax help line. But I am no tax expert. I have no Government documentation sources to back up my view. It would not surprise me if this boils down to the Revenue Department Ministerial interpretation.

Interesting thread. Of course this is Thailand. There are always surprises at some times, and no surprises at other times. It would not be Thailand if that not the case. IMHO you can always find an agent if you are willing to pay for an agent. Problems might only come up if you decide to not go for an agent and then you need to learn for the first time how to do this yourself (potentially cheaper dependent on how your financial assets structured). Many of us do not use an agent - and there are some very knowledgeable people on this forum - so IMHO keep checking and asking from time to time if there are things you do not understand.

He stated he phoned the RD Tax department tax help line. He stated the chat lasted at least an hour, and that there were many occasions when the RD official on the phone, had to 'put the phone down' and consult with someone else in the RD to get an answer. He also noted the chat was in Thai language (so presumably nothing lost in translation). To me, that reads to be far more official than a local tax office, and more official than a youtube blog of a tax advisor looking for business who did not also adopt the same or superior approach. It all boils down to - in part - who does one believe?

There are at least 61 Thailand Double Tax Agreements (DTAs) with other countries ( I read another source that stated 64 DTAs). I doubt the RD officials at your local tax office are familiar with all of these DTAs. If you wish an accurate answer, and not an off the cuff < don't bother us > answer, you will IMHO likely need to show up with a Thai language copy of the Great Britain and Northern DTA with Thailand, and highlight the relevant paragraphs associated with your pensions. Else I believe there is a high probability that they could make a mistake. I emphasize high probability that they could make a mistake. Of course, just IMHO.

You forgot to mention the Canadian mafia / gangsters extending their conflicts to Phuket .. 😅

I agree in part -BUT I disagree with your 'overthink' characterisation. Rather I am trying to head off any misinformation - and show yet again another example of proof that such Canadian sourced pension is not only not taxable by Thailand for resident expats in Thailand - and FURTHER prove it is not to be used as part of a monetary assessment if a Thai tax return is required and also not included in a Thai tax form as income (if one needs to file such a return for other reasons).

Well - as noted, user Guavaman asked on the Thai RD Help Line did LTR visa holders (ie for LTR-WP, LTR-WGC, and LTR-WFTP), whose only income was remitted foreign income, did they need to file a Tax return? Best that I understand was the RD told him NO. (ie for LTR-WP, LTR-WGC, and LTR-WFTP). If there was some caveat that it only applied for income earned in the current tax year, or did not apply for income earned in the current tax year, they would have clearly warned of that caveat. Best that I understand from user Guavaman's post, the Thai RD applied no such caveat. Again, I suspect the tax advisor companies did not bother to ask the Thai RD this very question.

Is what law? As of Thailand RD Ministerial instructions Por.161/162, any assessable income earned from 1-January-2024 and then remitted to Thailand from 1-Jan-2024 onward in time is subject to possible Thai taxation and if the remitted assessable income is over a certain monetary threshold, a Thai Tax return is required. Por.161/162 is not Thai law, but one would need to take the Thai RD to court if one wanted to openly challenge it. Most of the debate on this forum, has been what defines the words "assessable" given not only the Thai tax code is relevant, but also the noted Thai RD Ministerial instructions Por.161/162 are relevant, and also Royal Decrees are relevant (such as RD-18 (which references DTA exempt income) and RD-743 (LTR visa)). I think there is no disagreement, that if one's only income is remitted foreign income/savings from before 1-Jan-2024, then such is not treated as assessable income, and there is no need to have a Thai TIN, and no need to file a Thai tax return. However if one is remitting income earned from 1-Jan-2024 and onward in time , into Thailand, then one need to check the Thai tax code (which defines assessable income) and also check with further amplifying/clarifying documents, such as Royal Decrees and Ministerial instructions to more precisely define assessable income. More precisely only should check the DTA of one's income source (re: RD-18) and also check with any other DTA's (such as RD-743) to assess if that remitted foreign earned income after 31-Dec-2023 is assessable income, in addition to considering any Thai derived income. Also other aspects (in regards to Thai derived income) is in regards to interest from Thai banks/bonds, where IF a 15% withholding tax has already been applied, as by having the withholding tax applied, its possible such interest does not factor into the assessable income assessment. I don't know enough to be certain there, but it is a factor. So in short - yes there is some scaremongering , but also yes, there is a need for some (but not all) to file income tax returns who were not required in the past to file.

AseanNow user "Guavaman" recently (possibly on 29-January-2025) called the Thai Revenue Department on their help line, and asked the RD a number of questions about taxation that has been puzzling foreign expats in Thailand , and been the topic of debate on this forum. One of the questions he asked was this: ---- ---- ok, that is US income, not Canadian, and this thread is for Canadian income relevant to the Canada-Thai DTA. In reply to their post, I did note that their discussion with the Thai RD help line was possibly relevant in areas where they did not specifically discuss such. What am I thinking of? Well when discussing USA Social Security the Thai RD noted USA Social Security was not taxable in Thailand and a Thai Tax form not to be submitted it for that. I believe that the Thai-USA DTA notes such is exclusively (or only taxed) in the USA which per Royal Decree-18 means such income is exempt Thailand tax. I note other DTAs have somewhat similar wording. And if other incomes in Thai DTAs are also exclusively (or only taxed) in the source country, and not Thailand, and also exempt Thailand tax (pre Royal Decree-18) than I think one could extrapolate that a Thai tax form is not to be submitted for those. Canadian pensions (and similar remunerations) are to be exclusively taxed in Canada. So if such Canadian pensions is one's only income remitted to Thailand (and one has no local income), one could extrapolate from that a conclusion that an expatriate in Thailand in receipt of a Canadian pensions (or similar remuneration from Canada) as their only income, need not file a Thailand tax return. Here is the post I am referencing: Again I am no tax expert, nor a tax advisor. Everyone should research such themselves, but I find this encouraging given the wording of the Canada-Thailand DTA.

as I posted, clarity would be nice. ... and I fear the tax advisors/companies have not asked this very specific question to the RD - but rather are offering their own interpretations which may be wrong. I've already spotted where they claimed where there was a tax form for LTR visa holders (suggesting such was for all) when in fact it was only relevant to a very small category of the LTR visa holders. At best that is a poorly researched misleading answer in the case noted, and at worst it is a deliberate spin to try to scaremonger and drum up business. I suspect the former - however one does NOT want poor research and/or misleading answers from a tax advisor. Further some tax advisors (such as Q and A noted) claim LTR visa holders need to file a tax return even if remitted income to Thailand is their only income. We know now from a user who asked the Thai RD on a help line and was specifically told no tax return required. Again the purported internet (registered no less) tax advisors claimed a tax return required. I suspect they never asked the Thai RD that specific question, but instead came up with their own interpretation. again ... At best that is a poorly researched misleading answer in the case noted, and at worst it is a deliberate spin to try to scaremonger and drum up business.

I stumbled across a Youtube video (in German language) here. Now this is an English language forum ... and also my German language skills are not adequate to understand the spoken German (I used subtitles and Google translate to observe the video):' https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3B0sZ4xq8UA However according to that video (best i can understand), German pensions are taxed in Thailand (in general) for residents of Thailand in receipt of such Germany sourced pensions. It is mostly a mute point for me (as my German pension amount is below the Thai taxation threshold), and i don't remit that pension to Thailand , and I have an LTR visa. But it will dictate my financial planning for the future, in case in year 2033 (if i am still alive) I decide not to stay with an LTR visa.

It would be good at some point in time to get a Thai RD ruling on this specific example. This doesn't affect me as I have most my funds outside of Thailand (much more than a year's pension income outside of Thailand) so its easy for me to make the case (and prove such remitted income to Thailand) is income from a prior year (more precisely from savings going back over a decade or more). And in part por.161/162 makes this a bit of a mute point for myself as well. Still - clarity would be nice. Not everyone is as fortunate as myself.

I was scrolling through one of the (many) Thailand tax threads, and it pointed to a link on Expat Tax Thailand web page which lead me to a very good Expat Thailand FAQ (question and answer page). The page was very good, but unfortunately I believe their interpretations on some LTR visa aspects are out of date given more recent clarifications. I posted my observations on that AseanNow tax page. Note i am no tax expert. This is not tax advice. i recommend if the above affects one's financial strategy/actions, that one should take the time to confirm themselves, possibly by phoning the Thai tax help line (try to get a knowledgeable Thai speaker to translate for one).

That's an interesting link, as Expat Tax Thailand has a FAQ page with answers to some of the questions asked on AseanNow. I found it informative - and kudos to Expat Tax for their efforts. However there are a small number of mistakes in the answers in their FAQ before that 'ask-a-question' .. (in regards to details of LTR visas and taxation) that I have believe are wrong (likely because new clarifications have been determined). Here are some questions/answers taken from the Expat Tax page: Example-1: Q: Are LTR visas exempt by Royal decree? Expat Tax: There are two types of LTR visas which are exempt from foreign-sourced income with a Royal Decree: Wealthy Global Citizen and Wealthy Pensioner My observation: Actually there are three types and not just two types. Expat Tax forgot to mention "Work from Thailand Professional" is also exempt tax from foreign sourced income remitted to Thailand. - - - Example-2: Q: If I convert my current retirement visa to an LTR visa, do I still need to make a tax return? Expat Tax: Yes you do, it is a different form and depending on the Visa you may have no tax liability. My observation: This is correct but it is misleading. It would have been better to note in the Expat Tax answer applies to the year of the visa conversion. In subsequent years, if on an LTR-WP, LTR-WGC, or LTR-WFTP there is no tax on income remitted to Thailand and further if that the only income there is no need to file a Thai tax return. The no need to file a Thai tax return was recently confirmed by an AseanNow user when calling the Thai tax help line phone number. This becomes important as well in a further misleading Expat Tax answer. And in regards to the different form, its only for LTR-HSKP - - - Example-3 : Q: Can you please confirm that Wealthy Pensioner LTR Visa holders are exempt from tax on foreign source income remitted to Thailand Expat Tax: Yes, the Wealthy Pensioner LTR is exempt from foreign sourced income if remitted the following tax year. My observation: This is correct but it is misleading. It would have been better to note the Expat Tax answer applies to the year of the visa application. Once one has had the LTR visa for more than one year, the 'following tax year' observation becomes a mute point, as tax returns are always submitted for tax on the previous year. Interpreting the Royal Decree 743 to state foreign income remitted in the year of earning being taxable is incorrect. - - - - - Example-4 : Q: Is retirement pension considered income? Does having a 10-year LTR (Long Term Resident) Wealthy Pensioner waive the tax requirement? I receive US military retirement ( ~$4000), VA Disablity (~$4,000), and US Social Security Disablity (~$2,000) monthly. Expat Tax: The Wealthy pensioner VISA has a Royal Decree exemption from foreign sourced income. You still have to file by its a different form you have to complete, which has just been added to the revenue's website. The good news is that US government pensions and social security are not taxable in Thailand. My observation: This is only partly correct. LTR_WP do not have to file a Thai tax return if foreign source remitted income is their only source of income in Thailand. A phone call by an AseanNow user to the Thai tax help line confirmed that LTR Wealth Pensioners do not have to file a Thai tax return for foreign remitted income. Further the only Thai tax form that has a field for LTR visa holders is for only the LTR High Skilled Professional visa holders. The only Thai tax form is for LTR-HSKP is here in Thai language: https://www.rd.go.th/65971.html (year 2024 tax forms - Form Por.Ngor.Dor.95). Further thoughts: In light of relatively recent clarifications, I believe that Expat Tax Thailand should update their FAQ question and answer section based on such more recent clarifications. I am not a tax advisor nor a tax expert. Please confirm such tax information one's self. But I am pretty certain any who take the time to check with the Thailand Revenue Department Help Line will confirm what I noted in regards to LTR visa.

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My state pension is for working in Germany (as an employee of a company supporting a European intra-government organization (not German but European) ... and yes, that pension is available to everyone IF they work and they (and their employer) contribute to the German pension system while working. A mute point: In fact, i did not have enough time working for the company in Germany (as later I became a civil servant of the European intra-government organization and hence no longer in the German system - even thou living in Germany) ... however my previous time working in Canada and my time working for that European intra-government organization in Germany qualified me for a German pension, IF (and only if) I paid the German pension system a lump sum of money (in essence pay them a few months of pension contributions to bring me up to the qualification point for the German pension). So I immediately did that, and immediately then started receiving a German pension. The pension is small, as it was/is calculated on my only contributing financially to the German pension system for 5-years. The DTA stuff is interesting ... but the (legal) language it is written in can be confusing.

I am puzzling over the German-Thai DTA in regards to pensions. I have assumed my small German pension is nominally assessable income, based on an official letter from the German Tax office. After looking at the German-Thai DTA, I am wondering, was i wrong in my assumption? Details: Over 4 years ago, I received a letter from the German Tax Office, that as a resident of Thailand, the DTA between Thailand and Germany applies, and that the right to tax my German pension (which is a state pension (ie not a civil-service nor a military) is assigned exclusively to the United Kingdom of Thailand. That was 100% clear. From that I assumed (where assuming can be 'dangerous') that the German pension was assessable income for Thailand and taxable. (I note at present my German pension is too small to meet the Thai taxation threshold, but that is not the point of this post). So out of curiousity as to how the German Tax Office concluded (what they advised me in that letter), I decided to dig through the Germany-Thailand DTA to find that reference. Upon re-reading the German-Thai DTA I note: If those remunerations are pensions, then that does not seem consistent with the German Tax Office letter. But maybe the remunerations are not pensions in that article. So I then went on to read article-18: That 18(1) does appear consistent with the German Tax office letter. ie Pensions may (only) be taxable in Germany in circumstances that don't affect me. I then continued reading article-18 and read: Again - the DTA states not taxable in Thailand. That does not appear consistent with the German taxation office letter. What am I reading wrong here? Can it be such pensions are not taxable in either country? That would be (an almost unbelievable) first. Typically at least one country does the taxation. Escaping the taxman is not supposed to happen. Is it? Ok - Yes, a present time, for me its a bit of a mute point, as I am on an LTR -WP visa and my German pension is very small, but in 8 more years my LTR visa expires, ... I may have more assessable income then, and if financial restructuring by me is potentially desireable to reduce my tax exposure, I like to plan ahead. Am I misreading this Thai-German DTA? if I made a mistake, if any are familiar with the Thai-German DTA, please point out my mistake? Note - this is far too small (and too mute an observation at this time) to bother contacting any tax advisors.

I'm no tax expert, but there doesn't appear to me to be much wriggle room there.

There is only one answer for that (which you know): "This is Thailand". lol.

Have you checked the DTA wording? The Canadian-Thai DTA, when talking about pensions, says "pensions and other similar remunerations". Those words "other similar remunerations" is a pretty big encompassing category. Does the USA-Thai have that sort of wording as a big net for catching various pension type incomes?

Guavaman did note a number of times the RD official on the Tax help line (?) could not answer his question, so they went off line for a while to consult with someone else. With respect to Expatthai tax ... I will place more faith in the answer of an RD official who takes the time to check than I do with Expatthai tax.

You are right - that would drive me nuts ... if not withhold tax - it shouldn't be in 'withholding tax' area. lol !! I confess thou - I have not read the guide - maybe the guide states to do that. How would that stand up to a future audit? If it were me, and the amount substantial (which it is not in the noted case) I would probably lose sleep over it. This is going to be an interesting year in Thailand to observe (and to a limited extent participate in) as all these tax topics play out.

Good luck. I hope this goes well for you.

I thought your post about your discussion with the Thai RD help line relevant possibly in areas where you did not specifically discuss such. When discussing USA Social Security the Thai RD noted it was not taxable in Thailand and a Thai Tax form not to be submitted it for that. I believe that the Thai-USA DTA notes such is exclusively (or only taxed) in the USA which per Royal Decree-18 means such income is exempt Thailand tax. If other incomes in Thai DTAs are also exclusively (or only taxed) in the source country, and not Thailand, and also exempt Thailand tax (pre Royal Decree-18) than I think one could extrapolate that a Thai tax form is not to be submitted for those. Typically (but not always) this applies to foreign civil servant/military pensions, and to all Canadian pensions (and remunerations), where if one extrapolates, those being tax exempt (per their DTAs and Royal Decree-18) are not to have a Thai tax form submitted to them. Further Royal Decree-743 notes LTR-WP, LTR-WGC, and LTR-WFTP visa holders remitted income to Thailand is tax exempt. And again, here re: the LTR visa, the RD help line official stated no Thai tax return required for those exempt remitted incomes to Thailand. If a Thailand tax return form needs not to be submitted for those exempt incomes (such as US Social Security and LTR selected visa holders), I think it supports a view that such DTA/LTR exempt incomes are not to be considered assessable income for the tax calculation and not considered assessable for the purpose of determining if a Tax return is needed to be submitted. i concede others do NOT share my view - and I appreciate them if politely sharing their different view - but still - I include this as another point in support of my view that exempt income per a DTA (and LTR in selected categories) should not be considered assessable income for purposes of filing a Thai income tax return. Of course this is my speculation - and speculation is just that -the same as everyone elses's speculation.

There are many threads on taxation running in parallel on AseanNow. On one of the threads, user Guavaman reported that they phoned the Thai Revenue Department help line and asked them a number of questions one being: That's good news IMHO! EDIT: I assume this applies to LTR-WP, LTR-WGC and LTR-WFTP visa holders. It did thou send me off thinking of a hypothetical scenario. I obtained my LTR visa in 2023. Lets say in 2033 I elected to switch to a Type-O non-immigrant visa (that is not my plan - I am just speculating). Is money accrued in the past when on an a LTR visa, but left outside of Thailand (in savings) , considered by the RD as income if one has switched to a Type-O visa? I speculate worst case it might be, so i am going to do a book keeping such that I can prove my German pension (which is not protected by the Thai-German DTA) was brought into Thailand when I was on the LTR-WP. And show that any savings I have outside of Thailand is from my pension incomes that the Thai DTA exempts from Thai taxation ... ie Canadian pensions (or similar Canadian remunerations for example. That way I ensure I don't get stuck with paying tax on German pension accrued after 1-Jan-2024 (por-161/162 relevant date) when I bring such into Thailand , as I can show i already brought the money into Thailand. This is all hypothetical, but it may impact my book keeping ,and maybe impact some bank transfers to Thailand.