oldcpu

Thanks for that update. Most interesting. My Thai wife applied to obtain a Thai Tax ID Number (TIN) for myself and failed with the Phuket office, although I suspect if she and I had adopted your approach she would have succeeded. My wife applied online (which goes from Bangkok to Phuket and ended up chatting with a Phuket RD official on the phone). When my wife told the Phuket RD official I was bringing no money into Thailand (which is true) and that I have no Thai income (which is true) and that I am living off savings in Thailand brought in when I was a non-resident to Thailand (which is true), and the official denied me a TIN. That mostly ended the discussion (although there were some more aspects to the phone chat with the RD official (all in Thai language)). What my wife should have followed up with was I could use a Thai TIN as a foreign brokerage account was asking for my Thai TIN. (In the end I provided the foreign brokerage my Pink-ID #, with a written and signed caveat by me that the Pink-ID# was not yet activated as a tax ID). Reading your post, I had expected it would be a P.N.D.91 and not P.N.D.90 form the tax official would fill in, and clearly I may have my understanding wrong and to satisfy my curiousity need to go back and look at the forms again. Out of curiosity, is this for a foreign brokerage?

I checked out the 2017 to 2023 Thai tax forms in English language. The 2017 to 2020 have the year hard printed on the first page. The 2021 to 2023 instead have an empty box for one to enter the year (on the first page), BUT the exemption page (at end of the form) has the year (for 2021 to 2023 English language Thai tax forms) hard printed on that page. So many of us are curious whether the 2024 English-language Thai tax forms will be any different. I am becoming cynical and I suspect there may not be much change.

Ok - thanks - thats interesting. I considered about a year ago to open an account with them , but the intent then was to move both my Canadian bank RRSP (which that bank 'froze' because the bank discovered I was no longer a Canadian non-resident) and my margin trading account to Interactive Brokers. But research (which may have been wrong) indicated interactive brokers changed their policy and would not allow Canadian RRSPs & RRIFs (which are sort of the Canadian equivalent of a USA 401(k)) for those who were residents of neither USA nor Canada. Also, I read posts on a forum (possibly reddit) claiming I had to file USA income tax return for the margin trading account that I was considering to open (and those posts may have been wrong). So I went with a Canadian company (Questrade) instead. Although Questrade is not great for currency exchange. I don't mind paying taxes that are required - but filing another country's tax return would be a major PIA for me. I might look again sometime to open a second trading account (with Interactive Brokers) and also use it for currency exchange. Limitations on transferring funds to Thailand thou (if there are any) probably would be a show stopper.

Who knows? If it is a known CRS requirement then Thailand will either have to comply or get CRS to ignore the non-compliance, or get CRS to openly (or quietly) accept non-compliance, or Thailand simply leave. I speculate you won't read of many outside of the global revenue departments weeping if Thailand were to leave. As you state ... This is Thailand.

That was my thought also. Further, if one did start using Interactive Brokers as a trading account, would one then also be 'on the hook' to file a USA tax return (even thou not a USA citizen and not a USA tax resident)?

According to the BoI web page: https://ltr.boi.go.th/page/visa-issuance-info.html "Acceptable payment options include Thai mobile banking (QR code scanning) and cash only." You could phone BoI and ask them if you wish more confidence/confirmation.

Then you need to be more specific in how you type such - as opposed to a general statement without such, especially in the context of this thread where an assortment of taxation aspects are being discussed. No. Thailand can leave any time. Again - you exaggerate. Thailand can decide how it goes about implementing the requirements (as long as it meets such) and OECD can not stop Thailand from leaving if Thailand choses. Thailand calls the shots in such cases. Again - you exaggerated.

1st - congrats on getting the extension on your permission to stay. i think most agree that if one's total remitted + local income is below the filing threshold for Thailand, then there is no requirement to file a Thai tax return (nor obtain a TIN). Where we have discussion on this thread often tends to be if income is considered non-assessable and hence debated if it is not reportable. Sorry to read re: the UK policy about on NO inflation increments to non-residents of the UK who have a UK pension. That reads to me to be unfair - especially for any who may also still be paying taxes to the UK. Best wishes.

And that was exactly my point.

It is an exaggeration. You stated " it is not Thailand calling the shots, it is a supranational organisation called the OECD. " ( I applied the 'bold' / 'italics' ) I pointed out that Thailand is also calling the shots as a sovereign nation. Thailand can leave any time it wants and OECD can not call the shots and say Thailand can not leave. Thailand can tell OECD to 'stuff it' ANYTIME and leave any time it wants. Further, OECD can not tell Thailand how to precisely implement any of the requirements. Thailand can follow the route it choses to implement the requirements. Stating it is OECD calling the shots is simply an exaggeration when sovereign nations are involved. Both parties (OECD and relevant nations) are partnered here in calling the shots. Thinking it is only OECD is so very wrong. I repeat. It is an exaggeration. I inferred such as much myself when I pointed out USA did NOT sign up to CRS. What citizenships do you understand Mr.Hart has from watching that video? And what superpower refused to sign CRS (quite possibly due to it NOT wanting to share as much information).

The point is, when it comes to believe there is a trend about financial information sharing, while , yes, Thailand now has signed up to CRS, not every country in the world has signed on, and in particular, the world's only super power, which purportedly values freedom above most else, has not signed on. It will not share information to the same extent. I do ask myself - why. Only in regards to limited financial aspects ... Also, one should not overstate the details of the CRS. Countries do have a range of flexibility in regards to various aspects. No. That is an exaggeration. OECD is not the be-all and end-all. Thailand is a sovereign nation, and it will comply with the OECD CRS to the extent it sees fit. If push comes to shove, with regard to any non-compliance, Thailand can leave any time it wants. Thailand also (in addition to OECD) gets in part to call the shots whether it stays or leaves. .

OK - you had me curious. There are crucial differences between the FATCA vs the CRS. https://www.diligent.com/resources/blog/fatca-vs-crs-the-difference-is-crucial Though both FATCA and CRS try to combat tax evasion, there are some notable differences between the two sets of regulations ... ... One of the biggest differences between FATCA and CRS is the breadth of its design. Whereas FATCA requires financial institutions to report only those customers who qualify as U.S. persons, CRS involves more than 90 countries. Under CRS, virtually all foreign investments handled by a financial institution become subject to a CRS report. ... Under FATCA, each country entered into a separate bilateral intergovernmental agreement with the United States. ... Part of FATCA's power lies in its resolve to collect information from RFIs concerning the financial dealings of U.S. taxpayers. Initially, this relationship was entirely one-sided; thus, it was truly a collection, not an exchange. In subsequent years, at the insistence of the G20, FATCA has modified its position on data reciprocity, but it is still not an equal exchange. I could go on, but there we have it. The FATCA does NOT share as much as the CRS. The USA refused to sign the CRS. Ergo the USA refuses to share information to the same scope. It begs the question. Why? Again , I am not advocating Thailand follow the USA lead, but I think the USA can see issues with the CRS, else they would sign such.

... they have the FATCA and ??? The FATCA is not about sharing US citizen financial income information to other countries, from what I read. Rather it is about getting financial information (from other countries) on USA citizens for the USA IRS. Do I have that wrong? (I might have). But if I have it right, then I think it is in some aspects very different from the CRS. .

I think that true. Thailand likely needs to update its tax forms if it wants all global income reported, or even if just all remitted income reported on a Thailand tax form. Currently the 2023 tax form does not do a good job for supporting the reporting of all remitted foreign income. The exemption section has no field for DTA tax exempt remitted money, no field for paw.161/162 tax exempt remitted money, and no fields for LTR tax exempt remitted funds. I like to think Revenue Department in Thailand try their best, and accordingly I can't help but think this omission is deliberate on their part. This does support the view that the remitted income I noted could indeed be treated as not assessable by RD and hence not be listed on a tax return to Thailand. I find this confusing and my hope ( possibly in vain) is that this will be better clarified in the next few years.

Regardless, I think you can infer why, when recently Revenue Canada offered to treat me, a non resident to Canada, as a deemed tax resident to Canada. I declined. I will stay a Thailand tax resident thankyou.

That is not for all Canadian tax residents, but rather for Canadian tax residents who exceed a $100,000 cdn$ threshold of assets outside the country. It never applied to me when I lived in Canada about 3 decades ago. I didn't have the money outside the country at that time. Reading that you can possibly infer why, when Revenue Canada sent me a letter recently, offering to treat me as a Canadian tax resident, even thou I live outside of Canada, I declined that offer. I will stay a Thailand tax resident thankyou.

A minor point .. Canada requires anyone who submits a Canadian tax form to Revenue Canada, whether or not a Canadian resident, to state on that tax form their total global income. And if one has Canadian income above a specific (pretty small) threshold, that person needs to file a Canadian tax return, even if they are not a Canadian tax resident. I am not stating that is an approach other countries should adopt. I am just noting that is what Canada does. For years, when I lived/worked in Europe, I had no Canadian income, so i did not have to submit a Canadian tax form. However once I started receiving Old Age Security and Pension income from Canada that changed, and a Canadian tax return was / is required. Death and taxes. Something one can not escape.

If I may comment on Thailand signing up ..... Is it like the USA signed up to the OECD CRS ? ... oh ... I forgot ... the USA did not sign up to the OECD CRS ... ... its not that I am advocating to follow the lead of the USA. Its just interesting in the context of the video. These are interesting times.

I suspect you have an idea as to the response: TiT (This is Thailand). 🙂 But on a more serious note, to be the 'devils advocate', Thailand is in some respects different. In the case of Canada and Germany, if one is a resident of those countries, one is required to report all global income and pay tax on all global income to those countries (which ever one that one is a resident). It does not matter for those 2 countries whether one leaves the money outside of the country or brings the money in to those countries. One still MUST pay tax to those countries on such (again only if one is a tax resident). However as of yet, Thailand does not tax foreign income if the money is not remitted to Thailand (even thou one is a tax resident of Thailand). So Thailand is different there. And if different there - why can Thailand not be different elsewhere?

i think you missed that in my previous reply. I already stated on the Canadian tax form one is required to list their total Global Income (although supporting documents are not required when listing such). .

A couple of additional points that I have been pondering ... The Thai tax forms can only be filed online IF one already has a Thai TIN. How many expats already have a TIN. I don't know the statistics , but if I had to guess, I would guess much less than 50% of expats have a Thai TIN. As noted as well, the Thai 2023 tax return form, while it has the 'year field' blank on the first page, does have the year 2023 hard printed on the exemption page. That exemption page (and also other pages) don't have fields (that I could spot) for tax exemptions for items under DTAs, nor for paw-161/162, nor for LTR-WP, LTR-WGC, LTR-WFHP. That suggests to me that either (1) a new English language 2024 tax from is still coming, or (2) income from items covered under DTA exclusions, & paw-161/162 exclusions, & LTR-WP, LTR-WGC, LTR-WFHP income exclusions are not to be reported. For if reported, there is no place to then list them as deductions. I find this all a bit confusing. I wish all expats in Thailand the very best wishes in choosing a proper legal way forward in regards to filing a Thaliand 2024 tax return (or not filing such a tax return if determined it is not legally required -.... just be certain to be legally accurate there).

I am out of date with regard to German tax forms. The 1st year I moved to Thailand from Germany, I filed a tax return to Germany. In response I received a letter from the German government advising me that Thailand had exclusive rights on taxing my German pension and that since I was a resident of Thailand, unless my tax situation changed, I was advised by the German government that I was not required to file a German tax return. Needless to say, I have kept that letter (I did not 'frame' it and hang it on a wall, although I was tempted 🙂 ). As for Canada, I file a tax return to Canada every year for my Canadian pension (CPP) and my Canadian Old Age Security (OAS) and soon to also include my Canadian annual RRIF (Registered Retirement Income Fund) payments. Canada taxes those (and indeed only Canada has exclusive taxation rights on those according to Thai-Canada DTA). Further, for Canada to select the tax rate under which I pay Canadian taxes, I am required to state on my Canadian tax return my total global income on my Canadian tax form, and also state the name & Canadian social insurance # (ie Canadian tax #) of my wife, if she were to have one. Edit : i am not required thou to provide supporting documents for the Global income (although I keep such in case I am ever audited). Fortunately, since I am not a resident of Canada, I do not have to pay Canadian tax on all of my global income (rather my global income only affects my Canadian sourced income taxation rate). I do thou, as noted, have to pay tax on all my Canadian income (and I pay at a higher rate than nominal due to size of my Global Income).

To answer your question, by playing 'the devil's advocate' ... There has been no change in Thai tax law. Only Paw.161. and 162 (which are NOT chaages in law, but rather at most ministerial regulations or directives) and some public words by senior person(s) in the Thai RD. Plus there are a bunch of videos by companies in Thailand who make money off of people filing tax returns. Companies that arguably want to get money off of foreigners. In the past, under Thai tax implementation, foreign income was taxable only if remitted to Thailand in the same calendar year in which it was earned. There was no change (today) in the definition of a tax resident. The law is still the same. So to use some of your words (again - I am playing the devils advocate): In the past, when you transfer (remit) your pension to Thailand, does the Thai bank know it is ONLY money that you have transferred? No? In the past the bank only sees a foreign currency / exchange to baht deposit for a foreigner. What you noted also applies in the past where "The TRD know you are not living on air here. As another member said, in order to envoke the DTA or tax exemptions, you need to file and declare. Otherwise, as far as the TRD are concerned, your funds could be from anything, anywhere. " That was true in the past as much as it is today. I am not saying what you noted is right or wrong. I am just saying, the change that happened (paw.161/162) has not changed the fact that foreign income, arguably subject to Thailand tax, was also transferred to Thailand in the past. So if nothing was done by Thai RD in the past - how much more will Thai RD do today? I don't know. Something for expats to ponder. Yes - its mostly your country of source income (but not always - especially for Thai citizens). For example I obtain pensions from Canada and also from Germany. Thai-German DTA with Thailand gives Thailand exclusive tax rights on the German pensions. Thai-Canadian-DTA with Thailand gives Canada exclusive tax rights on the Canadian pensions. So every DTA is different. I happen to be under an LTR (making that a mute point for me) and currently now (and for next few years) I will be living off of income brought into Thailand when I was a non-resident to Thailand (and bring no money into Thailand now) -but that is not the point. As I think you agree, the DTA of the country from where one's income is sourced is important. Anyway - don't get me wrong - I was simply playing 'the devils advocate'. I do believe all foreigners should seriously examine their financial situation in terms of taxation and take the appropriate legal financial action, which may or may not require them to file a tax return. .

Indeed. I wish the Thai 2024 tax forms in English language were that clear. .. Ahh .. sorry .. there are no Thai 2024 English language tax forms, and the 2023 tax form has the 2023 tax year hard printed on the exemption page. That does not make this any easier and contributes to make this less clear.

There has been no change to the law, from what I understand. Rather there were RD directives defining better how the RD interprets the law (Paw-161/162). As part of that the Thai RD has been reminding residents (via Thailand news articles) of Thailand (both citizens and foreigners a like) that they are considered Thailand tax residents if they reside in Thailand for 180 days or greater in any given calendar (tax) year. Further, per paw-161/162, the interpretation is not all money remitted into Thailand is liable for tax. Only that foreign income commencing 1-Jan-2024 if remitted to Thailand is liable for tax. This has resulted in many looking at Double Tax Agreements between the country from which their foreign income is sourced and with Thailand, to see if maybe the DTA provides them a further exemption from Thailand tax. There is also existing Thai law governing tax exemptions , and whether such need be included in a tax calculation. No change , but because of the need now to possibly be liable to taxation, this is now getting a lot of attention, while in the past such was mostly ignored. Further, there is a concern that companies that provide tax return service to foreigners, may be exaggerating the current state of affairs and trying to make money off of foreigners here. Of course there may be no exaggeration , but needless to say, there is worry and confusion. I could go on about other aspects, but I think you 'catch the drift' .. In essence the new RD interpretations opened a pandorras box of concerns.