rubl

as opposed to the red shirts who are just a group of thugs........

"as opposed to the red shirts who are just a group of thugs........ " - so here it is - the epitome of TV's arguments about Thai politics - you should be proud of yourself!

i am proud of myself, i wear my red hating badge with pride

just the same as i wear my i hate bullies badge too, regardless of their color, religion or creed.......

THe poitics of hate - well I'm not surprised to see this sort of rubbish promulgated by TV expats

Personally I tend to say 'seriously dislike', but that's just a matter of semantics

(edit: found dictionary, know how to write semantics )

She also faulted the foreign minister for his inaction over Wikileaks' disclosure of contents detailing a dialogue between senior Thai politicians and the former US ambassador to Thailand, Eric G. John.

Interesting. The site was blocked and may still be. What else should have been done? Round up the usual suspects?

I don't know about present times or about the Thai army specifically, but soldiers used to be offered an alcoholic beverage before going onto the front lines. So it's not inconceivable, although I doubt it's tolerated these days, particularly in a civil operation.

All speculation though, as emptyset and rubl seem to have finally agreed...

In line with the censure debate, I have to say that I'm very happy and much obliged that my esteemed and dear opponent brought up this controversial issue. We had a frank but civilised exchange of thoughts and, if I may say so, wholeheartedly agree we tend to disagree. All in good spirit(s) and with respect for each other

I wonder where Abhisit's figures come from? Granted, even if Abhisit gave the wrong figures, it's not a massive difference.

... middle part removed ...

Mingkwan was very poor vs Abhisit but ties in the debate as a whole are apparently about even according to an ABAC poll, with the government's performance rated 5.69 by the public vs the opposition on 5.80.

Granted, even if PM Abhisit gave the correct figures, the difference seems hardly enough for the opposition to complain.

The ABAC poll seems to confirm, members read in it what they already believed, or reject the figures. Makes you wonder

(edit: add: still happy to see democracy in action as it should be/do)

Of course, it's normally easy to to distinguish soldiers from the "men in black", look at these guys, it's obvious they're soldiers, isn't it?

I suppose you missed the fact that Sae Daeng and all his minions where current or former soldiers, gone rogue...

Don't confuse militia or other security personnel with 'men in black'.

I know, I was just making the point that it wouldn't necessarily be easy to tell who was military/CRES and who was MiB etc, especially when some soldiers appeared to be wearing plain clothes.

... and some red-shirts wearing military apparel

Just mentioning in passing that there has not been a proven link between the single beer can and the Army or Special Forces. Unless the can was duly signed and stamped 'property of the RTA' that is. I've heard strange things, but only as suggestion, not proof. Anyone living, or just walking around in BKK must have noticed lots of rubbish laying around, especially behind fences.

Not sure how we got here, unless the beer can figures prominently in k. Jatuporn's VDO

Yep, it can't be definitely concluded without finger prints and such, could be just rubbish, true. I'll quote a more lengthy extract from the piece, as you can see they don't say whether the beer can was empty or not, or whether it was found in an upright position, which would give a clue to whether it had been drank by a soldier, or tossed by someone else:

[7] DSI investigators, who along with crime scene investigators from the Forensics

Institute, went to examine the BTS track where the witnesses inside Wat Pathum

Wanaram and the witnesses injured both confirm they were shot at from soldiers

on the BTS track, and upon inspection of the scene investigators discovered two

bullet casings, one unfired bullet, one plastic water bottle, one bottle of Lipovitan

[energy drink], and one beer can; examination showed that the bullet casings and

the unfired bullet were both .223 caliber (5.56 mm). The bullet had a green tip, the

same as the soldiers testified that they used on 19 May 2010.

Then it appears again towards the end of the report:

Physical Evidence

1. Two spent shell casings.

2. One unfired bullet.

3. One bottle of Q Water brand drinking water.

4. One bottle of Lipo energy drink.

5. One Leo beer can.

I'm not sure whether the beer can will be used as evidence in court or not... after all, being drunk is surely no excuse!

We're moving off topic a bit here, but nowhere did I see an accusation of soldiers or special forces being drunk, or anyone else for what it matters. The position of a single beer can is hardly relevant and I assume you quote from the DSI report provided by k. Jatuporn ?

As I mentioned before, let's wait for MP Jatuporn's hour of fame in the censure debate. The speculation here has reached a point where it becomes a bit Kafkaesque

Maybe k. Jatuporn will also show this picture, Army hoarding and drinking while clearly on duty

begin removed ...

Incidentally, Jatuporn is quoted as saying in BP that he's got video recordings, still footage and witness testimonies to present in the censure motion. He says he knows exactly who the culprits were and has pictures of them. He claims they've all been arrested and subsequently released.

Good, I always wondered who this is

As a result, I believe I have been banned indefinitely from commenting on the website or the online newspaper's articles. Clearly my views were considered invalid, in ways "Mister" Arisman's were not.

There is justice...........

*tips hat*

either of you, for next time

Still raining heavily here in Bangkok's Dusit area, almost two hours now. Early this morning around 4:30AM similar. Must be real fun to sit outside and protest

Anyway, the beer can isn't the issue, I mention it in passing because elsewhere it'd be worthy of comment, i.e. if British troops were going into operations with cans of lager, I suspect it'd be somewhat scandalous. But I wouldn't find it so surprising if one or two of the soldiers had a can or two to calm the nerves. I've heard stranger things. We've seen the way American/British troops have behaved in Iraq etc, so I just don't see why you think Thai soldiers would have much higher standards, especially given it was a very tense, stressful situation.

Just mentioning in passing that there has not been a proven link between the single beer can and the Army or Special Forces. Unless the can was duly signed and stamped 'property of the RTA' that is. I've heard strange things, but only as suggestion, not proof. Anyone living, or just walking around in BKK must have noticed lots of rubbish laying around, especially behind fences.

Not sure how we got here, unless the beer can figures prominently in k. Jatuporn's VDO

Mr Arisman, fugitive core leader of the United Front of Democracy Against Dictatorship (UDD) charged for terrorism, recently made an appearance on YouTube to declare that he would not turn himself in unless the Prime Minister had dissolved the House and scheduled a date for the general election.

So k. Arisman will not come to the March 26th sing-along as k. Jatuporn told us o-so-many-days ago

So come on then... who's gunna start the ball rolling on this one?

What more is there to say? The OP says it, doesn't it? Thaksin = PTP = Red shirts

I'm trying for "Thaksin = PTP = UDD faction of the red-shirts". The other red-shirt factions don't make it easier for me though

First, it's not a "red shirt plot", it's just a guess by me as to who he is based on the leaked DSI report. Yes, the soldiers involved in the Wat Pathum Wanaram incident were (per the testimony of the actual soldiers involved in the DSI document) from the 1st Special Forces Battalion, 3rd Special Forces Regiment, Lopburi. He also states this unit posted two men to guard Siam BTS and that soldiers were at Siam BTS by about 5:30, at the latest. One witness, a Pol. Sgt, who was in National Police Headquarters, which looks down onto the tracks, said he saw the soldiers arrive outside the Wat at about 5:30. His testimony was backed up by another Sgt, who handed over pictures and video of it to the DSI*. But probably before that, because he says that his unit were ordered to withdraw back to Siam BTS after the Wat Pathum incident, at 18:10 but the unit didn't return back to Siam BTS until 19:45. There were four units, also including Army Ranger Battalion, 3rd Special Forces Regiment, on the tracks in total, with the 2nd Infantry Battalion also in the area, responsible for the ground level.

So given that, if the picture was taken anywhere after about 5pm, we can assume he's from the military, if from before that, it could be anyone. I don't see how you can judge anything from his camouflage, even if he wasn't military, he's probably ex-military and would likely be wearing camouflage issued by the RTA anyway. What's unusual is that he's wearing a mask, and you wouldn't think he'd be wearing one if he were part of the government force, but who knows? There were even government soldiers in plain clothes. Given that the picture of him seems to have been taken after the CTW fire started, it'd seem to be late afternoon, but we don't know exactly what time.

Relevant pictures are here, for anyone who hasn't seen them: http://asiancorrespondent.com/43506/photos-from-may-19-an-update/ - we're discussing photo 41. The piece asks: "Even though the photos appear to show that there were shooters firing from the direction of Siam Paragon, we lack clear evidence as to who the shooters are and why they are shooting. Did Siam Paragon have armed guards?" - I'm lead to believe Paragon did indeed have armed guards, as they hired a General to take care of it, which Central World didn't do, for some reason... I don't know if they were engaged in any gun battles with the MiB or the army, but it's quite possible.

I don't understand your point that the Thai military would be incapable of killing several people, apparently by accident, just because they're special forces. Even the highest trained special forces are capable of making far graver mistakes. I can't be sure, but I'd be willing to bet that the British Parachute Regiment has far higher training than the RTA special forces, and they were responsible for the Bloody Sunday massacre. Also, judging by the beer can found on the tracks, the consumption of alcohol might've had something to do with it. Anyway, just to be clear, 3 were shot inside the Wat, another 3 outside at ground level that were later taken inside the Wat.

*Incidentally, he also states a group of journalists were also there with him and saw it all. I wonder if they actually reported this in the news media they work for? Pretty shameful if they didn't...

"it's just a guess by me" - Fine, as all you are entitled to your opinion in which case you also do not really need to prove anything, it's your opinion.

"There were four units, also including Army Ranger Battalion, 3rd Special Forces Regiment, on the tracks in total" - How many men does that make? Seems a bit crowded like the BTS service at rush hour. Strange some track shots only show one, two figures ?

"judging by the beer can found on the tracks" - Special Units tend to be far more disciplined than normal forces, draftees. The beer cans are a bit out of character, even for Thailand.

"Anyway, just to be clear" - Yes, please be, especially after having made this very subtle suggestion with the beer cans.

"he also states a group of journalists were (assume a Pol. Sgt, who was in National Police Headquarters is meant)" - The article cited says "Will any journalists step up and track down these witnesses?". Till now no answer.

Of course as I mentioned first, with an opinion proof is not really essential, although it would substantiate the opinion.

No thoughts of the health costs or implications then of smoking per se?

Thought not.

Actually, let's be accurate here; health costs are minimal as all the smokingt related illnesses are ignored anyway by the wonderful Thai health Service that abandons its non paying public patients to a 30 baht service. That wouldn't buy a new scalpel blade to rip open your throax and go in search of the rotting blackened tar filled lungs anyway.

Minor correction. Under PM Surayud the 30-baht universal healthcare program was made completely free.

Government duly elected??? I think word is abnormally inappropriate!

Yes but in Parliament session, not as deserved right base on votes of Thais on election! Just to make that clear!

Of course, all that came with the little help of a (powerful)friends who previously cleaned political stage in country by ban most dangerous rival who actually won election.

So, when the road was paved, PM was elected from the politician who left after the "iron broom".

By Democrat party members, just and only 162 of them who won in election. And of course, forming coalition with meaningless parties around.(Bumjaithai and some more).

The discussion on 'duly elected' seems a monthly recurring one. Mostly we end with 'according to law and regulations', but with a touch of uneasy feeling. Like in the UK and Australia fairly recently.

As for 'meaningless parties around', I assume that even applied when they were still good friends and tightly embraced by TRT and PPP? Surely we can't tolerate double standards in this

Forum rules on shortening posts to manageable levels have been carefully explained to you already.

If you can't name a book that's influenced you just say so and that's an end of it.

Meaningless and vague complaints about "ad hominem attacks" are very lame.If you have a specific problem I will do my best to address it.

I vaguely remember.... that he once mentioned.... Milton's Paradise Lost....

would that count at all in his defenseless stage....

Maybe should start looking for the sequel 'Paradise Regained'

I used to be neutral in the Red versus Yellow debate, both have valid arguments. Now I am so bored with the outpourings of snide anti Red comments that I want to see the Reds win, just to wipe the smirk of so many members faces.

The debate isn't red v yellow. It is yellow v majority of normal people v red. The yellows are fairly irrelevant now that there is an anti Thaksin govt. Judging by the posts in this forum, I would say the degree of sanity and literacy is lower amongst those backing the reds. I'm not well positioned to judge the Thais on those points.

As a known Anti-Red (at least as some will have it) I can tell you I do not doubt their literacy nor their intelligence, only their reasoning. Most likely as they do mine. This has no real relevance with sanity, only with opinion

(quote name='chachachacha' timestamp='1299995673' post='4278216')

The Reds will win the election ,just as they have the last 3 or 4 .

There is no stopping the people & nor should there be . They was robbed of what they voted for & have lived under junta government by proxy.

Some would say this guy is not a terrorist but a freedom fighter.(/quote)

you lost all credibility when you said ''The Reds will win the election ,just as they have the last 3 or 4.''

Only to those who do not wish to acknowledge any of the other information presented

You must have missed my post from almost 12 hours before, with the other info:

"Where people say don't use the label 'terrorist', others may say don't use the label 'freedom fighter'. Labels may be easy but too general. In case of Thailand most terrorists / freedomfighters seem to be down South. The others are protesters who want democracy, or something or another "

http://www.thaivisa....ost__p__4278261

If I get you correctly a vote for UDD and PTP in this election is not a vote for the reds, just a vote for change of government, yes I would agree

Labels.......each person is an individual, to support a common goal does not mean each individual supports the methodology used by a few hotheads, a fact that is eternally lost on many of the posters on this forum.

Above I just quoted on the 'other information'. As for the elections and voting, check the link again. I wrote

"The reds never won an election for the simple reason that the reds never stood as a political party and put forward candidates. Even for the coming election the reds will not stand as party. Some leaders of the UDD faction of the reds will be allowed to join the PTP and stand as candidate for the PTP. All after consultation of PTP members in a democratic way of course."

The Reds will win the election ,just as they have the last 3 or 4 .

There is no stopping the people & nor should there be . They was robbed of what they voted for & have lived under junta government by proxy.

Some would say this guy is not a terrorist but a freedom fighter.

you lost all credibility when you said ''The Reds will win the election ,just as they have the last 3 or 4.''

Only to those who do not wish to acknowledge any of the other information presented

You must have missed my post from almost 12 hours before, with the other info:

"Where people say don't use the label 'terrorist', others may say don't use the label 'freedom fighter'. Labels may be easy but too general. In case of Thailand most terrorists / freedomfighters seem to be down South. The others are protesters who want democracy, or something or another "

Once the PM dissolves the House the Election Committee is responsable for setting an election date and organising the election. In the time in-between the current PM / cabinet will continue in a minimal caretaker position. No new policies, no controversial policies, just day-to-day government work already agreed upon.

Yes Rubi, that what you are saying is a situation that would be acceptable in developed countries and countries that have traditional or at least the basic principles of democracy as a way of life, social life.

Further, it would be acceptable to countries which do not have pressures from outside-in foreign policy issues and especially which do not have internal problems and divisions and conflicts. So, I am afraid Thailand can not afford to stay without House of Representatives this moment.

This moment, Thailand is not a stable country at both the basis and the question is whether the government can maintain existing only in terms of technical maneuvering, without House of Representatives.

However, i don't think it is needed to dissolve House of Representatives, at all.

They could be dissolved declarative but not really. Especially because i am not sure that dissolving is ordered, requested by Thai law or Constitution.

Hypothetically, there is a risk, in this situation. Could happen something what for is needed House of Representatives voting so if they are dissolved in the meaning that they will not have sessions, what would be then? If the Government try to solve a problem by itself but if it's needed voting in House of Representatives, oppositions might feel like overplayed and that could lead to some new protests, right?

BTW, on the other hand, if MP will not work for certain 2 months, i wonder will they have some money for to be out of work?

Thailand could save huge amount of money if MP will be not paid for that 2 months at least.

When the House is dissolved (and confirmed by Royal Decree) the Election Commission must hold a new general election between 40 - 60 days after the Royal Decree.

During the time in-between the government is not supposed to tackle anything but issues already agreed upon. That means anything needing voting in the House cannot be handled, but needs to wait till AFTER a new PM / cabinet / house has been installed and Royally accepted.

Any other combination may be interesting speculation, but unacceptable either de-jure or de-facto. The behaviour of the former PM Thaksin in 2006 while in/out/in caretaker position is one of the reasons of the military coup in October 2006.

Finally as for saving money with MPs in function but not working, good idea. I often wonder what MPs do, the visible antics of MP Jatuporn come to mind in this

(PS you need glasses, my member name is 'rubl', not 'rubi'

EC hints at electoral dates :26 June or 3 July 2011

BANGKOK, 13 March 2011 (NNT)- The Office of the Election Commission of Thailand hints at electoral dates of 26 June or 3 July 2011, if PM Abhisit seeks House dissolution in early May.

Mr. Suttipol Thaweechaikarn, Secretary General of the Election Commission mentioned that if the Government sought House dissolution in early May and obtained a royal decree on the new general electin, an election date is mandatory by the Constitution to be scheduled within 45 days and not exceeding 60 days after the dissolution. Hence 26 June and 3 July 2011 are among the possibilities.

An EC meeting is to be held later on Tuesday, to discuss the three organic law drafts to govern a new general election due to take place. Should the consideration of the draft bills is delayed, EC can resort to Section 7 in the Constitution and issue its announcements instead.

-- NNT 2011-03-13

This could be very critical situation. This could be attempt of the Government to fool, overplay whole opposition.

Dissolution of Parliament, even if it is required by law, may be in the current political climate, the climate of hostility and mutual accusations and countless scandals, very bad for the whole country. In case the Government use very simple trick for to eliminate any opposition voice for quite time. Without violating the law or Constitution. Moreover, just playing by the rules as law and Constitution demand and say.

How come?

Possible scenario could be like this.

There is an obligation, by the Constitution and it is precisely stated that elections must be scheduled within 45 days of the dissolution of Parliament (not more than 60 days) and of course, the Government will be not in rush to do so quickly. But it refers to a SCHEDULING date of the elections but not to do ELECTIONS.

Suppose that the dissolution of parliament comes in next seven days. That mean 20th March. Then there is time of waiting. It has to be maximum of two months to proclaim exact date of elections.

This would mean that the day of election elections will be known 20.May.

But here could be a problem as there is no any obligation for the government who will then specify the date as the date of the election. It can be 21 May, just days after the expiration of two months, but this is probably as much possible as Government may specify 21.December as election day. If there is no obligation for the government in this regard, by the law or constitution(as i think so) it can be any day that only Government know or wish to be. That is what we don't know.

What we do know is that PTP and UDD should not to believe to Government that the day of election will be soon after that 2 months(from the moment of dissolution of House) expire.

Experience what PTP and UDD gained in dealing with this Government, probably will make them be extremely careful this moment. Otherwise they can be defeated and overplayed before election and to approach to election demoralized.

Whatever happen, one thing is for sure. After dissolution of House, who will rule the country?

That will be just and only Government for certain period of 2 months, at least. Without any voice of people so they(Government) could make anything they want to-without any resistance as will be no House. In that 2 months, anything is possible to do.

If i wrong in this, i will be glad.

Once the PM dissolves the House the Election Committee is responsable for setting an election date and organising the election. In the time in-between the current PM / cabinet will continue in a minimal caretaker position. No new policies, no controversial policies, just day-to-day government work already agreed upon.

Sorry this is probably a silly question but will there be a way for us falang to follow this Censure Debate??

Or will it only be broadcast in Thai??

Probably broadcasted life on one of the Thai channels, in Thai of course. No English subtitles I'm afraid, not even Dutch

Some people on twitter may post snippets in English, try @tulsathit (works for the Nation), or @terryfrd (works for the other newspaper)

Be careful watching all 40+20+6 hours is really bad for your health

...his desperate desire to hang on at all costs I find abhorrent, he is a wimp with a smarmy smile.

If he's that "desperate" surely *insisting* on elections is a major gamble? Especially considering Thaksin himself used the word "landslide" when describing his desired victory?

Maybe dear member anterian refers to the last time PM Abhisit was politely asked by protesters if an early election could be made possible and he said "YES, what about November 2010?"

Which one is a prejudice, a) or e) ?

Laughable.

Try not to bait.

Not baiting, just wondering. It was you who described the options as prejudice. So you should be able to tell which one and why. Unless you are baiting of course

Lets us let timekeeper respond.

Might be :-

He did: "just speculating, i am allowed to do that on forums........"