JimGant

Or, to revive an old discussion, if you begin your SS retirement while still in the States, when you move to Thailand, don't notify Manilla -- and avoid the fire drill being discussed on this thread. Nothing illegal about this, since, if you're entitled to SS retirement, you can live anywhere in the world and receive your monthly payment -- except for a few countries, like North Korea and Cuba. It's only if you're getting SS SSI (the welfare side of SS), and you move outside the US, are you legally required to notify the SS administration. When I moved here, I got a mail forwarding address, which I put into the "mailing address" of my online SS account. The next line had an affirmative: "The above address is my physical address." And a check block. I was honest, and didn't check it. This was several years ago, and there was no follow up to this blank check box. No integrity violated -- nor, apparently, any curiosity. Don't really feel I'm violating the spirit of the "are you alive" requirement, since when I croak, the wife has to notify the Air Force (DFAS) to begin her survivor pay. Uncle Sam, then, is duly notified to stop my Air Force check, and my SS check.

Just another managed democracy in the Asian neighborhood. From the report I posted, their stifling of freedom of expression is worse than Thailand's. But, hey, when you got a clan like the Lees, running a successful and happy country, you ain't newsworthy.

Yeah, just look at the particulars of this country: Wow, wouldn't it be terrible if Thailand degenerated to this level of human rights abuse. What? This is Singapore? Nevermind. https://www.state.gov/reports/2022-country-reports-on-human-rights-practices/singapore/

Amnesty International, and all these other hand-wringing NGOs, are culturally tone deaf. Thailand happens to be very protective of its Royal Family; say bad things about them, and pay a heavy price for blasphemy. Similar sensitivities about blasphemy in Muslim countries. Dissent all you want in Thailand -- but just be aware of certain cultural boundaries -- and the heavy price you'll pay for pushing the envelope. Amnesty International would have more validity, if it didn't broad-brush the world.

I did my one year report in Chiang Mai, using an agent (Star Visa). They wanted a copy of my TM30.

Are these guys so brain dead that they ignore realpolitik and keep needing to touch the third rail that is Article 112? This is akin to running for office in a Muslim country, with a platform that says they'll amend the Koran, if elected.

Indeed. Too bad the UK-Thai DTA doesn't read like the Spanish one, where Spain has exclusive taxation rights of all UK pensions (paid to residents of Spain), except pensions paid in reference to govt service. As such, the UK pension recipient in Spain can just ask the HMRC to refund all previous UK taxation, and forego any future UK taxation on such income. Doesn't matter if Spain even taxes that income -- as exclusive tax authority, per DTA, the UK has no taxation rights to this income. Thus, this is not a one for one tax credit situation, where one country in the DTA has primary taxation authority, and the other country has secondary taxation authority (rental income is good example of this) -- and as secondary, has to absorb a tax credit, while the primary taxing authority gets to keep all collected taxes. Too bad, with a silent DTA, UK pension recipients in Thailand apparently don't have the same luxury for exemption, with HMRC, as UK pension recipients in Spain [and other countries, with specific DTA language -- Spain isn't the only one]. In fact, the lack of language in the UK-Thai DTA even leaves to question which country -- Thailand or UK -- has primary taxation rights, and thus gets to keep all the tax collection (while the secondary country only get to collect, if anything, what's left after absorbing a tax credit). However, looking at DTAs, based on OECD Model tax treat language, where there's a DTA article entitled Other Income: 99% of "other income," meaning it's not addressed in any of the Articles in the DTA, has the country of residence as the primary taxation authority. I guess if I were a Brit, I'd like to get an HMRC readout of the above.

I assume, then, she is not a dual Thai-US citizen?

Let sandyf have his way on state pensions. With his self assessment logic, he would not declare his state pension on a Thai tax return. Thus, there would be no number -- maybe not even a tax return -- upon which the TRD could call him in for a discussion. But, in the <1% chance he's called in for an audit -- and the missing state pension number is brought up -- if he can blow just half the wind he's blowing on this subject on this thread -- they'll eventually toss him out of the office in exasperation. Seriously, if you really believe a position that's to your benefit, go for it -- but be prepared to have your defense in order. In this situation, everyone but sandy believes he's on shaky ground. But if sandy believes it -- why shouldn't he go for it. He may end up paying a Thai tax on this, after an audit. But with such a huge amount of BS to throw at the TRD -- he certainly wouldn't be seen as complicit in tax evasion. Just pay the tax, with fine and interest. But, again, the chance of him being called in for an audit over a missing number -- is probably zilch.

Because what comes after "any pension" is thus: ... paid by the Contracting State or a political subdivision or a local authority thereof to any individual in respect of services of a governmental nature rendered to that State or subdivision or local authority thereof shall be taxable only in that State." What is you don't get about the "in respect of services of a govt nature rendered to that State....?" State pensions AREN't paid for govt services rendered, like would be a military or civil service pension. Thus, the DTA does NOT address State pensions. Period.

The DTA is completely silent on UK state pensions. And, as already shown, it is not a government pension in light of DTA language, which says the pension must be paid for services rendered to the govt. So, not a whole lot of help from the DTA. In fact, the UK-Thai DTA doesn't even have an Article on "Other Income," as most other DTAs have, which addresses income not specifically addressed in any of the Articles. However the conclusion in the US Article on "Other Income" is that, "generally such income is taxable only in the country of residence." Not much positive help for Brits on their state pension, should their DTA have a "Other Income" Article with a similar conclusion.

If your SS is $1800, that would cover the whole 65k monthly remittance, i.e., no Thai tax. In fact, with your TEDA now at 500k, you could transfer another $1160 per month with still no Thai taxable income. Send an extra $3000 per month -- Thai taxes would be $2900. Assuming you're paying more than this in US taxes -- this $2900 would be a one-for-one tax credit against your US taxes. Yes, Forms 1116 and 8833 would need to be filed. But you say you use an accountant, so no big deal. You seem to be the average American. So, as has been said all along, Yanks, already taxed on all our income, won't be financially affected by this new situation (nor most, if worldwide income taxation comes in). Unpack your bags.

You'll certainly by more knowledgeable about your DTA than a mid level TRD clerk. So why ask him what's what -- since he'll probably not know, but being Thai, and thus never ever saying "I don't know," he'll give a wrong answer you won't like. Just read your DTA, and self assess accordingly. Thus, (for Yanks) all government pensions -- to include State and local govt pensions -- are taxable only by the US, same as Social Security. So, these payouts need never be mentioned, since they're non assessable; plus, there's no where on any form even to mention them, should you want to for some unreasonable reason. Thus, there's no number recorded anywhere that the TRD could be interested in, and so call you in for a chat. So, why would you want to waste time in a TRD office mentioning a number that needs no mentioning -- but to which a blank faced clerk utters an incorrect edict, but to which you now need to file a tax return....... Duh. So, do your own self assessment, without involving TRD. For the US DTA, most is clear cut, to include: Don't declare govt pensions; but do declare remitted private pensions, to include IRAs and 401ks. For gray areas -- and you've a good, researched argument -- give yourself the advantage by not declaring it. Thus, there's no number on any tax return, should you have to file for other reasons, for the TRD to query. If, in the <1% chance you're called in for an audit, and the missing number comes up -- well, provide them with your well-researched logic. You may not win -- but you certainly would have -- hopefully -- shown you had 'good cause,' and weren't a flagrant tax evader. [A good example would be a Roth IRA remittance. Roth came about after the US-Thai tax treaty was approved, thus no mention of it; but modern OECD Model tax treaties allow monies exempted by treaty country A to also necessarily be exempted by treaty country B. Take a look at the US-UK tax treaty technical report -- Roth IRAs are specifically addressed as not being taxable by the UK.] Anyway, know your DTA; don't get a TIN if you don't need to; don't go chat with your neighborhood TRD office; and if your tax situation is simple to moderate, don't waste money on a Thai tax firm. At least not yet -- wait at least until the rules become so convoluted that your situation is no longer 'simple to moderate.'

Easier, my a--! Since I had cataract surgery, with the multifocus lens emplacement, the only time I have to put on reading glasses is -- when I want to read what's on my darn cell phone! Then, when I have to type something on that stupid phone, my fat fingers hit the wrong tiny key -- and in some situations, I can't find the reverse function key to override. I just want that stupid instrument to answer, or make, phone calls. Alternatively, sitting in my comfortable office chair, in front of a large monitor, with a full sized qwerty keyboard and mouse -- what could be better than that, in doing my banking business? Yes, I guess, with a cell phone I could sit in a food court, in a plastic chair, and do my banking business. But why would I want to? Anyway, hope BB realizes they have a target market with geezers like me, who don't like cell phones for other than talking. But why, if the cell phone mbanking software is so superior, can't this software be adapted for use on PC and laptops? What am I missing with such a simple question? Certainly, I could adapt to any new software -- but please let me sit in my comfortable chair, in front of a large screen and keyboard. Sigh.

Indeed, yes. Have you played with any of the number combinations? If you have $1200 in SS per month to remit, towards the 65k baht requirement ($1800) -- then the remaining $600 from your private pension would not be taxable. And this is so, even if you're under 65, so you don't yet get the extra 190k baht deduction for age, and thus your TEDA is only 310k. Turn 65 -- and you've a whole lot more wiggle room with that extra 190k. Only if, for some reason, your monthly SS is only a measly $1000 -- would you owe some Thai tax on that $800 make up amount, using your private pension money. But, even here, with a 310k TEDA -- the Thai tax on $9600 would only be $50. And this would be a completely allowable tax credit against your US taxes. Furthermore, unless you have a stash of Thailand-assessable income you're not remitting, particularly capital gains -- should Thailand go to a worldwide taxation system -- very little, if anything, would change for you. On the other end of the scale, if somehow the $12k SS and the $9.6k private pension were your only sources of income - then you'd owe no US tax and thus the $50 Thai tax could not be used as a credit. Thus, for Yanks of little means -- yes, a Thai tax could be a net tax payout. But, not your situation, as you've indicated you pay US taxes. Anyway, do some number crunching -- you don't need to pay an accountant to do this, if you have all the facts at hand, which you should from all the info on these forums. Good luck.

We're talking about the fine for filing a nil tax return, by having no taxable income, but being over the 120/220k threshold for assessable income. Fines for evading taxes is a whole another matter, about which this discussion doesn't involve.

Probably the best post of all, in this meandering thread.

MPG -- very reputable -- has already responded. But, who cares what you accept. I'll be happy that you continue to waste your time, and TRD's, by filing nil tax returns.

Gotcha, mate. You and I need to have a beer or two...

Haven't the foggiest what you're talking about..... Grumpy said assessable levels exceeded, but hadn't reached taxable income level. Thus, no requirement to file -- as verified by MPG. So, what does the "well over" (or 5 baht over) have to do with the requirement to file ?

Yes, they can quote the law very nicely. That the law is stupid, has never been enforced (no reports), and if somehow ever enforced -- chance near zip -- the repercussions would be extremely minor. That another powerful firm, like MPG, says, hey, the law is ridiculous, just file if you owe taxes. That's my kind of full service firm. But, even without their hand holding -- to go thru the process of filing a nil return, getting a TIN, and now becoming wedded to the tax data base -- would make the non filing decision a no brainer. Mike, your regard for the law is, well, admirable (?). But your tax advice xxxxs (not a personal attack!! please, mods -- just an observation)

And advice came from a large firm -- MPG-- if I read between the lines correctly. A very upstanding firm, dealing with many financial areas; thus they have no reason to solely rely on tax customers for their income, and thus no reason to treat their tax customers as suckers. So, their straight skinny: Never seen enforcement of a nonsensical law about having to file if assessable income exceeds 120k. Thus, common sense says -- only have to file if you have taxable income. Grumpy, thanks for your research. I'd only file if I had taxable income, as that's just common sense. But nice to see a professional backup to that decision.

Then, don't get one. Move on with your life, and quit whining on this thread. Not exactly sure of why such a big decision -- either a LTR visa, or you move out of Thailand? Obviously, if you plan to stay in Thailand, and you qualify for the LTR visa -- get one. The probability is huge that the LTR tax exemption will survive any scenario. But, if not -- and you had planned to live in Thailand indefinitely -- you're then just another peon, with a Non Imm O visa. Is that not survivable? Anyway, maybe you should take a course in probability analysis..

Darn. And here I thought my $80,000 Air Force retirement and Social Security were non assessable per the DTA. Nice that a smart, young fella like yourself put me straight. Many thanks. (Now, let me run this thru my semantics checker before I push the button.)

Probably so. I doubt Thailand would, if it had primary taxation rights, allow a Yank to say: 'Sorry, buddy, but this money has already been taxed by the US, so it is no longer income.'