JimGant

Indeed. There's no way they could, thus needing to rely on self-declaration. You think that's why they're looking away from remittances, and towards worldwide income, where CRS and FATCA reporting can tell the Thai TRD what's what in Thai tax residents' income? Duh.

There are two events going on, neither of which have come into effect, and maybe never will. One is the Thai proposed taxing of worldwide income, regardless of remittance. The second is the possible disappearance of the Trump tax act, at the end of 2025. Both would have a tax hit, should you not convert your traditional IRA to a Roth. For the worldwide tax event to come into effect -- which I believe it couldn't until, the earliest, Tax Year (TY) 2025 -- if you waited until 2025 (or whenever it came into effect), you'd pay Thai taxes on the total amount of the conversion (as they have exclusive taxation rights, per DTA) -- a total which could be a significant six-figure amount. And this conversion would be treated the same as taking a distribution from your traditional IRA, which, of course, it is -- only in total amount, instead of, say, a required minimum distribution (RMD). [see footnote]. Thus, if you converted this year, there would be no taxable event, at least to Thailand, since there's no remittance aspect to a conversion -- only an income aspect -- yet to come into play. Wait a few years to convert -- then you may be facing a Thai tax significantly greater than what you'd pay to the US -- meaning, your US tax would be completely wiped out by the Thai tax credit, so your overall taxation would be that huge hit by Thailand. Hmmmm. The second event in play here is the possible canceling of the 2017 Trump tax cut, which could take affect in TY2026. The following article explains it nicely; and even 'tho aimed at Fed employees, it's mostly applicable to all. So, convert before the Trump tax act is cancelled -- and pay less US tax on this early conversion. Plus, since you'll now have no RMD requirement, as you would have with a traditional IRA, then no taxes on an RMD, which would be at the new, higher rate. AND, no taxes to Thailand on any now non-existent RMD (which you would have, per DTA). Thus: Saving on the conversion; saving on no RMD to US at higher rate; and saving to Thailand, by having no RMD for Thailand to tax. Good stuff. So, if you've considered doing a Roth conversion -- step on it. If you haven't considered it -- best do so! [Note: The US-Thai DTA is explicit on: Thailand has exclusive taxation authority on US IRAs, 401ks, and the like -- spelled out in the technical explanation of this treaty. However, because the US has its 'savings clause', that allows them to tax everything, regardless of treaty language -- then, in effect, Thailand only has primary taxation rights, and the US secondary taxation rights. This doesn't affect Thailand any -- they still get to collect and keep all taxes. And the US has to absorb a tax credit from Thailand, which, should Thai taxes be low, means the US would keep some of their taxes against the IRA distribution. But, for a Roth conversion -- I would think any Thai tax credit would blow out any taxes to the US. Second point here: It's totally weird that the US would allow in their tax treaties (all, not just with Thailand) that the resident country gets to keep all those taxes on IRAs -- that have sat tax deferred for years, with the US waiting to collect those taxes via avenues like RMDs -- but never does, because of some treaty language written by a dope. Oh well. Right now, if Thailand goes into worldwide taxation mode, my RMD will have to be declared on a Thai tax return. As it's around $15000/yr it will barely reach the taxable income mark -- so the big hit will still be my US taxes, with a slight dent from a Thai tax credit.]

Absolutely not. Don't get a TIN; don't file; don't worry.

What are you talking about? The wife and I will have filed a joint return right up to, and into, the year of my death. What "burden to fall on wife's shoulders" are you talking about? OOPs, sorry. Double response.

Both our IRA Required Minimum Distributions have 22% withheld, per agreement with Schwab, which completely covers any tax due on this, as we're not yet in the 24% tax category. I always take our RMDs in the first week of Jan, thus, should I die, that's out of the way for the wife -- as she needs my RMD out of the way to inherit my IRA. In any event, as previously discussed, this 22% withholding - which matches dollar for dollar the taxes due on the IRA distribution - means we've over withheld by about $400. And the wife can completely blow off having to file a tax return.

Huh? The wife and I will file a joint return right into the year I die. What possible "prior year returns" are you alluding to? Hey, give it a rest. I've got this thing covered.

Presnock is pretty smart. And, certainly, he knows that there are minor exceptions for filing requirements, like, have self-employment income exceeding $400.

Not be a wife who can't even do email.

Save your breath. Again, the wife is a US citizen, thus, none of the things you mention apply to her.

Irrelevant. Wife is US citizen. Again, wife is US citizen.

Are you familiar with spreadsheets? I certainly have the data to project this year's taxes on my projected income; and how much withholding I need -- plus some extra withholding to cover non-1099 income, like my interest on Bangkok Bank savings account. When I set up my wife's W4, this will automatically increase with inflation, just as with new tax rates. Thus, that $400 buffer I've built in - using the the "extra withhold" on the W4-- will be self-adjusting. The IRS will actually send you a IRS prepared tax return -- if their data from 1099s exceeds what they show from your withholding/estimated tax data. So, yeah, the the final authority on whether or not your withholding exceeded your tax bill -- is the IRS, as you say. I say: Most of us will have all the info needed to compare our future tax bill to our annual withholdings. And, thus, make sure the withholdings exceed that projected tax bill. And don't file, if you have a good reason not to.

True

Plenty of assets in US -- all exempt from probate, as they're financial, and have designated beneficiaries (IRAs, insurance), or are Pay on Death (POD) -- Totten Trust. Wife will already have a problem with my demise, as she's completely computer illiterate. Having her being able to avoid the tax problem -- should ameliorate the situation somewhat.

Or, you have over $400 in income from self employment; $108.28 of church wages, from a church that doesn't pay social security taxes. Yes, a few exceptions I ignored, as the target audience are US expats. Also, this position on no need to file, if no taxes owed, is fully vetted by the CPA organization I belong to.

In the USA it does. Certainly it doesn't in the USA. If you've overwithheld, or paid estimated taxes over your final tax bill -- and thus owe no taxes -- you don't have to file a tax return. Period. The wife's checklist when I croak is -- don't worry about filing a US tax return. Why? Because I've got it setup that she'll overwithhold by about $400 of what her tax bill would be, if she ever filed. Which she won't, 'cause she wouldn't have a clue how to do it; no CPAs here in Chiang Mai; just gathering 1099s online to give to the tax preparer would be impossible; and going to Bangkok, or even by mail, would cost in the neighborhood of $300-400. What a hassle. Just donate $400 to Uncle Sam, save yourself any hassle, and consider it a wash with any tax preparer fee. So, unlike Thailand, where, even if you don't owe taxes you're supposed to file if assessable income is 120000 -- and there's a 2000 baht fine if you don't -- the US has no penalty, nor legal requirement, for you to file, if no taxes owed.

Huh? Cash back of 1.5%; no foreign transaction fee; exchange rate of network (Visa), which is better than the TT rate you get with a SWIFT transfer, nearing the Wise mid market rate; no money ever removed from your checking account, as with a debit fraud; extra guarantees on purchases. Just scratch out that three number CVV on the back, so some dishonest clerk can't record this for some online "card not present" purchases. This number is never needed for "card present" purchases.

Don't confuse non immigrants with non residents, at least for tax purposes. All DTAs spell out how to define who's a resident for tax purposes. For us expats, that's being here over 180 days, cumulative, in a tax year.

...but extremely well thought out opinions -- which is the best we can go with, until further clarification from the govt.

MAGA BS.

Only the distributions from your conventional IRA -- like your annual RMD. This is clearly labelled in the DTA, particularly in the Technical Explanation. They'll just be concerned with mirroring what's in your US 1040, as to what income they're interested in. And, yes, you'll get a one for one tax credit against your US taxes for the Thai taxes paid on this IRA distribution. Undistributed earnings are of no interest to Thailand, or the US, for taxation purposes. Roth IRAs are an interesting scenario. The Thai US treaty doesn't mention them, because the treaty was signed before Roth came about. But look at the following from the latest OECD Model tax treaty (2017): And this, from the US-UK DTA: So, this is the current OECD feeling on Roth IRAs -- and should the Thai-US treaty be reaccomplished, this would certainly be in there. Sadly, we're stuck with the current treaty's ancient language. What to do? This is what, in the CPA world, is called a grey area. But -- to not declare any Roth distribution as assessable income to Thailand -- seems ethical under the new criteria, and in accordance with more modern standards than when the existing treaty was written. Now, I've been warned to not give tax advice on this forum -- so, just say what I just mentioned was an observation. That TRD would even be aware of the term "Roth" (which they wouldn't be if you didn't have to declare non assessable income somewhere). Even if they explored your 1040 tax return, Roth would not show up. So, forget anything about any Roth distributions, should you have taken any (no RMD here), as somehow being reportable assessable for Thai tax purposes.

Nope. "May" by itself means there's a primary and a secondary tax authority. "May only" means there's only an exclusive taxation authority. In US treaties, because of the savings clause, where there's an exclusive ("may only") taxation clause, like for private pensions, this evaporates into a "may" situation. Thus, IRAs and private pensions, in this situation, have Thailand as primary taxation authority, but with the US having secondary taxation rights.

Negative: This language is similar to other DTAs -- the situs country has primary taxation rights, but the resident country has secondary taxation rights. ['may be taxed' is treaty language for there being a primary taxation authority, but also a secondary one. If it said 'may only be taxed, ' then there's only an exclusionary taxation authority, no secondary.] So, submit tax returns to both countries -- with UK collecting all the taxes, and issuing a credit toward Thai taxes. If Thai taxes, after absorbing the UK tax credit, are positive -- well, you'll owe this delta, plus full fare to the UK.

John, what's the worst that could happen? You already pay taxes on your worldwide income. If Thailand will now exercise their right under the DTA to collect their share -- with a subsequent tax credit to be absorbed by the US -- your overall tax bill will be the same.

I'm still lost on why you think it's superior to list your non-assessable income. This just gives RD a list of items to draw their curiosity to -- what's this Ross thingy you didn't include as assessable? Just file and pay any taxes due on your assessable income. If somehow RD knows your lifestyle indicates you should be reporting more assessable income than you are, well, show up to their summons with a list of all that non-assessable income, per DTA -- and dazzle them. But giving them a list of foreign income you're not reporting as assessable -- would just wet their curiosity more than if you left out this information. IMO.

I really don't think they wrote a tax treaty, that gave Thailand primary taxation rights on US income, but allowed avoidance of double taxation -- by allowing a credit of this taxation against US taxes -- but forgot to add a clause about "treating US income as foreign income" (re-sourcing) -- that resulted in negating the treaty's protection against double taxation. Anyway, I'll take the tax credit. And if ever asked about it (1% chance, based on auditing data rates) -- I'm obviously equipped with enough narrative to put any auditor into: "Enough, OK." Nice, intellectual discussion. That's about it.