JimGant

The only acronym I've used recently is "IRA." So, what exactly are you talking about?

That's why I said "traditional IRAs....." are subject to the saving clause found in the DTA -- and thereby taxable by the US.

Traditional IRAs and 401ks are certainly subject to US tax, per the saving clause found in all DTAs. So, all this argument about IRAs not being taxable by Thailand, per Por 162, is only a matter of interest, but certainly not one of tax savings -- since either Thailand or the US, or both, will collect your taxes (subject to credit relieve, of course).

The annual reinvested cap gains of my stock mutual fund have now become "tax deferred income," same as the original wage that established that stock mutual fund. Thus, Dec 31 2023 value of my IRA is all covered by Por 162 edict -- i.e., it's non assessable savings.

Sadly, much of this advice is questionable, no doubt due to the lack of any definitive/consistent language out of TRD. A situation where ones own reasoning can make more sense.

Actually, they are covered. And the DTA gives not only primary taxation of such pensions to Thailand, but "exclusive" taxation rights. However, the US "saving clause" reduces this to only "primary" taxation rights, meaning, the US has secondary rights -- so can also tax these pensions, but has to absorb a tax credit for the Thai taxes paid. Now, the DTA treats IRA payouts as "pensions," for DTA purposes -- but since IRAs are really tax deferred income/savings -- this is where Por 162 comes into play, and exempts all those pre 2024 IRA savings/income from Thai taxation.

As of Dec 31, 2023, my IRA consisted of stock mutual funds. All originally funded with pre 2024 wage income, then every year subsequently, these mutual funds declared dividends and cap gains -- thus more tax deferred INCOME reinvested in the fund. So, by Dec 31, 2023, my IRA was ALL pre 2024 income. That is was ALL tax deferred income, by US tax standards, is a no never mind in the eyes of Por 162. Thus, my IRA balance on Dec 31, 2023 is non assessable income, as far as Thai taxes are concerned. Again, as previously said, Por 162 overrides the DTA language saying this remitted income is primarily taxable by Thailand.

Yes, but IRAs are.

This is an on-going argument -- especially by jingling. Yes, prior to Por 162 -- which exempts all pre 2024 income -- private pension remittances were taxable by Thailand. But Por 162 exempted pre 2024 income, which both traditional and Roth IRAs consist of. Thus, Por 162 'trumps' the DTA language that, otherwise, would make IRA remittances to Thailand taxable. And Por 162 just says "pre 2024 income." It doesn't say that income can only be in a bank account -- which grifters like Expat Tax Thailand expound on. Anyway, I'd certainly be confident in excluding my IRA remittances from assessable income -- you really do have Por 162 at your back. And, as such, why wouldn't you give yourself the benefit of the doubt -- which, in the 1% chance you're ever audited, would certainly exclude you from any tax evasion charge, or criminal charges. No brainer.

Ph***k no! Why would you think otherwise? Some weirdo on this forum put that thought in your mind?

Why? It sounds like you were well aware of your 560k TEDA/150 freebie -- and that you owed no taxes. Was it because you had assessable remitted income that exceeded one of those arbitrary 60/120/220 thresholds? Anyway, your report is just one more that points out that, since Por 161/162, there has been no remedial training at TRD facilities. Thus, since most agents have never heard of a DTA, an expat's self-assessment on taxes -- to include knowledge of their specific DTA and Por 162 application -- will be more accurate than that of your average TRD agent. And, in your case, the agent was even stupid about allowances and deductions. So, with all these reports of dumbed-down TRD offices, why file a tax return if you know you don't owe any taxes? And even if you exceed one of those 60/120/220k thresholds, according to Integrity Legal/Benjamin Hart, there's nothing in the Code explicit to these -- so no enforcement. Thus, nothing is going to happen to you -- if you owe no taxes and therefore don't file a null tax return. And for SURE, you don't need a piece of paper to wave at Immigration stating you've filed a tax return.

Did my 1-yr report in CM, using an agent, Thai Visa, as they're a lot closer to me than Imm (although two trips required, plus 800bt). Someone reported -- after I had already done mine -- that using the Imm drive by window, used for 90-day reports, works just fine. Thus, that will be my avenue at next report time.

Yeah, I see your point. It makes sense that Imm will want to see a certificate from every farang exiting Thailand that they've met with TRD, and gotten approval that their tax situation is in order. Of course, Imm will have to spend some time to determine whether or not the exiting farang is a tourist, or a Thai tax resident. Say, ten minutes to validate. Extra Imm personnel then needed, to alleviate the subsequent backlog of exiting flyers. Now, say there are 300,000 farang retirees in Thailand, of which only 10% have enough assessable income to bother TRD annually with filing a tax return. But, for the other 90% of farangs, who don't require filing a tax return -- they're now going to have to file a null tax return, in order to get a piece of paper allowing them to exit the country, or to renew their visa extension. So, TRD has to hire another 10,000 agents to process these 270,000 farangs -- but since these 270k farangs add exactly nothing to the tax coffers, those 10,000 new agents are just a blight on the efficiency of TRD -- at a huge cost.... ......nevermind.

Yeah, but this guy gets a pass, 'cause he's Black -- and because Columbia is one of the biggies when it comes to DEI.

Ah, yes -- the smell of Halal cooking.

"Wife called the TRD helpline to confirm, gifting law applies to funds given to a spouse into an offshore account, and she can bring in the funds as she pleases." So, you're saying an offshore account can't act as a filtering/laundering device? Technically, it certainly can -- as I've demonstrated in the above discussion. Ethically, maybe not -- unless it truly is a gift to the wife. But, what's the bottom line? You send your private pension directly to your wife's Thai bank account -- but make a note to yourself that this is a gift, thus you don't bother filing a Thai tax return. Alternatively, wife gets your gift thru her US savings account, then forwards it to Thailand. Same result -- no taxation. Only if an audit should occur, would her remittance vs yours stand up to scrutiny. But, who cares. Chance of audit remote -- play the gift game as you choose.

Well, of course. Let's assume your wife had a US savings account, established ten years ago, and had on 12/31/2023 a balance of $500k. In that $500k were gifts you had given to her over the years. These gifts were, of course, after US tax paid funds (by you) -- thus now residing as her savings. So, today, on March 9, 2025, she wires $500k to her Thai bank account. A taxable event, considering Por 162? A reportable gift event, had the amount exceeded 20M baht? Of course not. I think the use of her offshore savings account to launder these remittances could be looked at from a couple of angles. Say, you're separated from your wife, so the money she wires to herself is used strictly by her. Thus, a gift. But, on the other hand, I say your gift to her -- which you've paid US income taxes on -- has morphed into savings -- and thus the gift aspect is now a non player. So, if you're both living together in Thailand, and your private pension, now a gift to your wife, is sent to Thailand to support the both of you -- I think you're both technically and ethically above-board. Again, this comes back to TRD suggesting the offshore 'laundering' route. Sounds like a good tax avoidance (evasion?) scheme. That TRD would recommend it -- is curious (but refreshing).

Right. That's why TRD said you couldn't send it VFR direct as assessable income and just say, hey, this is a gift; 'cause taxability depends only on the characteristics of the remitted income, not what it is finally used for. Your characteristics, by sending direct, wouldn't be overcome by declaring it as a gift. The wife, remitting from a savings account full of fungible dollars -- with only the interest earned on these dollars possibly subject to Thai tax -- is home free. All the money in her savings account is post-US taxation, which, ipso facto, makes it savings. Why do you think TRD advised you to laundry thru a foreign account -- and not send direct and then claim its use was as a gift? Obvious answer -- and nice to see there are some helpful folks at TRD.

Ah, I give my Thai-US wife my annual private pension earned in the US. (We both have US bank accounts - but we're both Thai tax residents.) She puts it into her US savings account, where it has now become savings (I, of course, have already paid the US tax on this pension). And, per US tax law, I pay no US gift tax, as it's a gift to my spouse. As a private pension, should I remit it to Thailand, then Thailand has primary taxation rights on it, per DTA. But if I "filter" it through my wife's savings account -- and she remits it -- this gift, which has morphed into savings, is no longer income, let alone assessable income. And, assuming the wife remits this money into her Thai bank account, it's lost its 'gift' aspect -- so no Thai gift tax for her to pay, if in excess of 20m baht. Anyway, that TRD should offer this "filtering" mechanism to get around Thai tax on a gift (can we call it "laundering?") suggests TRD is aware that remitted assessable income doesn't lose its taxability just because its purpose is as a gift. Remember the argument: assessable remitted income, whether used to buy a condo, a Honda, or groceries -- is still taxable, as purpose of that remittance is immaterial. And this, goes the argument, applies to gifts. Sounds like the TRD hotline is well aware of this.

Here's a good read on Thai Tax Clearance certificates -- a relic of the past, but still on the books: https://www.legal.co.th/resources/corporate-and-tax-advisory/thailand-tax-law/what-thai-tax-clearance-certificate/ One of the more glaring statements in this presentation is this: Sound like advice from a certain someone on this thread? Or a typical charlatan Agent pitch to scare you into forking over some baht? No, we've not seen any evidence of anyone exiting Thailand being asked for this certificate. Maybe a remote chance, if you're running a business here in Thailand..... But certainly a retired expat, who wasted time, money, and energy getting such a certificate -- would be -- to put it nicely -- foolish.

Ah, good word -- hangs. I'd much prefer hanging to deportation -- guards against a subsequent re-entry. But, I guess, realpolitik only goes so far....

You're nuts. There's no " certificate of clearance" to be obtained. Owe no taxes, file no tax return. No "certifcate of clearance" asked for by Immigration. Heck, have assessable income below TEDA, thus file no tax return -- ignore those 60/120/220k thresholds -- those aren't codified requirements. What the heck does this imaginary "certificate of clearance" look like anyway? Bet you can't produce one. Quit scare mongering, KH. You're getting tiresome.

Haiti?

Good. No reason why Americans have to tolerate no-value-added trash in our country. Maybe the Air Force will loan one of their C-17s, now being used to cart undesirables back to South America, to reunite these Hamas bums with their camels.

How could America be so stupid for so many years? We've got a lot of problems 967bn would help solve. Just read somewhere that Europe is really upset that the future means they'll have to now sacrifice social programs for defense. Yeah, social programs subsidized for decades by the US taxpayer. Hey, maybe this Trump guy is the real deal....