JimGant

Toxin's a friggin' interloper. Period. He and Elon Musk both have egos and heads way too large...

Makes no sense, if BOI is trying to sell a new product that will give you a tax advantage over the guy without a LTR visa.... Definitely something lost in translation here. Furthermore, enough folks have queried BOI on this tax advantage -- and have been told ALL remitted assessable income is tax exempt. Certainly you could take those replies to TRD, should you somehow be queried about a tax return you never filed, because you have a LTR visa. This is certainly a possible gray area. And, as I found out dealing with the IRS, if you've got a supportable position, the worst that can happen is pay back taxes, with interest. No fraud, no intended tax evasion, no fine. So, if you remitted assessable income in 2024 of 2024 income -- take the gray area to your advantage, meaning, don't file a tax return. Hopefully, further clarification about this will come along -- and I doubt what we hear will leave egg on BOI's face.

Hope the Por 162 redefines the DTA's taxability parameters.

Spot on. DTA gives Thailand "exclusive" taxation authority on remitted IRAs. But the US, per the saving clause, has secondary taxation rights -- but has to absorb a tax credit for the Thai taxes paid. Por 162, in redefining IRA remittances as not post 2023 income, has trumped the DTA language, that gave Thailand exclusive taxation rights on remitted IRAs. Thus, taxation of US traditional IRAs is solely by the IRS.

Actually, per Por 162 they are not assessable income, since their funding and reinvested earnings are all pre 2023 income (except for any reinvested income post 2023). But, this premise is not in stone, since some folks maintain Por 162 exempted income only applied to liquid bank holdings on 12/31/23. But some folks are wrong.

Yes, tax deferred income -- but pre 2023 income nevertheless. And, yes, when I take my Required Minimum Distribution of my traditional IRA in 2025, it will be fully taxable by the IRS. And per DTA -- if Por 162 had never come about -- Thailand has exclusive taxation on my remitted IRA (but the US also taxes it, per the saving clause, but has to absorb a tax credit for the Thai taxes). But, Por 162 did come about. And, by my reckoning, it says it is now not taxable by Thailand, 'cause it's pre 2023 income. So, what we're left with is: IRA withdrawal still fully taxable by IRS. But no tax credit to absorb, since Thailand can't tax it, per Por 162. So, you now pay full fare to Uncle Sam -- and nothing to Thailand. Bottom line: Full fare taxation to US, no taxes to Thailand under Por 162 would probably be same/similar, in total taxes paid, to paying taxes to Thailand, but having that same amount subtracted from US taxes, per credit. Thus, a wash.

Guavaman had an exchange with TRD, with the same question: Expatthai tax vs TRD ('tho it wasn't at the highest level of TRD).

Thanx for the reply. Only Bangkok post offices seems a little lame...

Actually, it appears to be a cop out. For clarity, let's look at the other side of the Por 162 coin: Money cashed out from my IRA, not to exceed the value on 12/31/23, is certainly all pre 2023 income -- the tax deferred earnings used to fund the IRA, plus the annual reinvested capital gains. And, for sure, any post 2023 withdrawals, turned into cash, would NOT be post 2023 earned income, if remitted to Thailand. That it took 15 hours to convert the IRA withdrawal to a bank deposit -- how does that make it so different from a liquid bank account on 12/31/23? Sell my car, bought with pre 2023 income, and send that money to Thailand post 2023. No remitted income here (and, as a non collector's item, no cap gain). Samo samo golf clubs, household furniture, boat, blah blah. Stock mutual funds held by Schwab. All cap gains/dividends have either been reinvested or paid to me. In either case, the value of this mutual fund on 12/31/23 represents all pre 2023 income. Sell enough to represent 12/31/23 value and remit to Thailand -- no post 2023 income here. That some advisors are saying "only cash in the bank only qualifies as pre-2024 income" -- doesn't cut it, when contrasted to the other side of the Por 162 coin, namely: Only post 2023 earnings are subject to Thai income tax, if remitted. All those cash-outs I've mentioned hardly qualify as "post 2023 earnings." (assuming you didn't exceed their 12/31/23 value).

You really are certifiable. Pistols or swords?

Right. Now can anyone answer my question on being able to mail to TRD my self assessed hard copy tax return -- or, if not, drop it off at the front door of TRD, without any further discussion. Thanx.

Why not just fill in the PND 91with the applicable assessable income, less any stipulated deductions and allowances, and then arrive at tax owed, or not. Then hand it in, or mail it. Why march off to the TRD office with a pile of DTA explanations and numbers, etc? Isn't self-assessment good enough? Then, if TRD has follow up questions, they'll contact you? I don't need to file a tax return this year, but if I did, I'd try to file electronically -- but if not available in English, I'd fill out a hard copy and mail it in (is that allowed?). Or is there some requirement that, not going electronically, I have to go to my local TRD and go over my return with an agent, line for line, plus hand in some supporting documentation (what might that be -- I've heard a bank statement -- is that gospel?). All very confusing, especially if self-assessment is the current guidance. And if filing electronically supports this guidance....

Hire another 50,000 agents, versed in 61 different DTAs, and paid several millions of baht per year - to collect, if lucky, maybe 1% of the cost from interviews with 300,000 farangs? Don't think so.

You're probably right. I just wonder how they phrased their hypothesis on pre 2024 income -- and was the person they consulted at TRD in a decision making position -- and/or was there something in writing presented? I suppose we'll never know. I guess if a few other tax hand holding organizations came to back up Expatthaitax, I might change my beliefs. Otherwise, I wouldn't have any doubts about not declaring IRA withdrawals on a Thai tax return -- as my position is certainly not a fraudulent position, but is certainly a logical argument based on the Por 162 language. I rest my case -- unless further information becomes available.

Not argue with TRD, but discuss with Expatthaitax why they say you can't put your IRA withdrawals in the pre 2024 income basket. Hopefully, you could do that for free, by signing up for the 15 minute dialogue with them, as advertised by their website. Certainly that could give you a 'warm fuzzy,' -- or not -- about having to declare your IRA withdrawals on a Thai tax return. Worth the effort, for sure. Meanwhile, I'll just go by the following, in digesting any advice from Expatthaitax:

So, then -- why would anyone of sound mind waste their time, and shoe leather, to get a TIN -- and to file when no taxes owed, but their assessable income exceeded the 60/120/220k thresholds.....and, then, to subsequently now be on the TRD's radar....? Madness.

And they certainly don't have the resources -- nor would a cost/benefit analysis ever give them the resources -- to query every expat. Best they can do is, have random compliance audits, based on: expats here for over 180 days, and who have remittances exceeding some high amount. This they could probably do with relatively simple data mining of immigration and banks. And, I wouldn't even hold my breath for this scenario. Self-assess with integrity -- and don't worry about your golf game being interupted by the TRD. Relax.

Ah, music to my ears -- in this otherwise ludicrous thread. Thanx, old wise cpu.

Did they explain how they came to their conclusion? After all, Por 162 exempts all pre 2024 income, whether it's in a bank account, in your mattress, or in your IRA, which prima facie labels all funds in that IRA as pre 2024 income (from wages, and annual reinvestments of income earned within that IRA -- except, of course, post 2023 reinvestments, which can be dealt with by FIFO, as withdrawals occur.) Anyway, Jingthing, you seem to think Expatthai's NO NO NO is the all-defining answer to this question. Why wouldn't you be more curious on how they arrived at their conclusion -- especially since it seems you'll blindly follow their advise, declare your IRA withdrawals on a Thai tax return, and (maybe) pay Thai taxes on them? But, some of us can use our own power of reasoning, interpret Por 162 literally, and submerge our IRA income under Por 162 auspices. Where your logic is coming from, if anywhere, is curious....

No, assessable income of 59k baht means, if you're single, you're not required to file a tax return. What's with your comprehension problem?

If the DTA gives Thailand exclusive, or primary, taxation rights on certain income -- like a private pension -- then to avoid double taxation, the US must absorb a tax credit. And, it could be a one for one credit -- if the US tax on the identical income is at least as much as the Thai tax on same income. If not, the credit could only be up to what the US tax was on that income. There are some other qualifiers in taking this tax credit, which the instructions to Form 1116 explain (and better explained in Schedule 514). One of these is ratio of Thai taxable income to US taxable income: But, should you be unable to claim the total tax credit due, because of this ratio, then you can carry back one year the credit (filing an amended US tax return), or carry forward for ten years. Another quirk is that the US Tax Code only allows foreign tax credits on foreign income also taxed by the US. But, of course, a US private pension is not foreign income. Hmmm. To get around that, you have to trump the Tax Code with Tax Treaty language -- and this you do with Form 8833, allowing US source income to be treated as foreign income, for tax credit purposes. It wouldn't. A tax credit can only be granted against US tax paid on the same income taxed by the foreign country. A Roth, of course, has no equivalent US tax to bounce a credit off of. [Roth is a whole new problem, not addressed in the US-Thai DTA. The US got around this with the UK by a protocol to the DTA dictating that US tax exempt monies, like a Roth, have to be treated the same by the UK, i.e., tax exempt. Would we see such a protocol with US-Thai DTA? Probably not in my lifetime. In the meantime, memorize Por 162, that says pre 2024 income -- which a Roth consists of -- is not taxable when brought into Thailand. Jury still out on this, as one tax firm -- Expatthai tax -- insists pre 2024 income can only be from a bank account. Baloney, I say. Just wonder what the official TRD position is.........]

Well, yeah: -- Hello, Thai guy -- we've got a guy on this forum who believes, when you mentioned that US Social Security was assessable income, that, well, that was the end of the matter. -- No, I further went on to mention that, because of the DTA, US Social Security was labelled as "exclusive" to US taxation authority. Thus, because of this clause in the DTA, US Social Security was no longer considered assessable income for Thai tax purposes. -- But, this bozo on the forum insists that, in spite of the DTA language making Social Security non assessable, that it is ASSESSABLE. What do you make of that? -- Call the guys with the white coats.

Geez, we've been over that ad nauseam: -- Assessable income = taxable income -- Not assessable income = non assessable income -- Non assessable income = not taxable income -- Not taxable income = exempt income -- The Cyclist = screw loose

Your nuts! He uses US Social Security as an example of exclusive income, per DTA, taxable only in the US. Yes, he at first says it's "assessable income" -- but then says, per the DTA, it is, because of the exclusive language in the DTA, taxable only in the US. Thus, IPSO FACTO, it is non assessable income for Thai taxation purposes.

Nothing he says about US Social Security supports your assertions.